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 Dunklezahn wrote:
Not really, all the rules relate to the models, their LoS, their position, not the players. You are trying to defend that the rule doesn't apply to you the player despite the fact they are to *all* your units as is clearly written in the rules.

AoC Models are the enemy to my units and thus to me.
AoC Models are the enemy to my troops but not to me the player.

One of these statements has created an artificial line between player and unit, the other has not. As such you have to have a reason why this is different.

Point me to a place in the rulebook where it says something to support that line and i'll happily agree with you. As it stands you cannot say a rule applies to your units but not the player and ignore it as a result. There has to be a actual rules based reason why it doesn't apply to you, otherwise we must assume it does.

Who counts the Victory Points at the end of a match - your units, or the player?

rigeld2 wrote:

Who counts the Victory Points at the end of a match - your units, or the player?

Well since you mention it....

"To determine the number of victory points an army has earned, we use mission objectives." Pg 122

Army, not player. As I say, the player has nothing to do with it, it's all about the army and the units.

It is a ruleset designed to simulate futuristic sci-fi battles, you as player have no presence in it, who wins and loses is taken from the army and it's units perspectives.

 Dunklezahn wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Who counts the Victory Points at the end of a match - your units, or the player?

Well since you mention it....

"To determine the number of victory points an army has earned, we use mission objectives." Pg 122

Army, not player. As I say, the player has nothing to do with it, it's all about the army and the units.

That didn't answer my question at all.
The army earns them - absolutely. Who counts them? The question I actually asked, not the question you want to answer.

page 123 wrote:You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units, and no models from enemy denial units, within 3"of it.

Since you control the objective and you do not treat your AoC as enemies, they do not deny.

It is a ruleset designed to simulate futuristic sci-fi battles, you as player have no presence in it, who wins and loses is taken from the army and it's units perspectives.

So wrong I'm not sure where to start.

I obviously started this thread out asking the question, but I have been convinced of the answer.

If you look at the rules of AoC on page 112 you will see it clearly says:

"Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, targeted with psychic powers..."


Now clearly there has been a distinction made here. They did not just say that AoC 'count as enemy units'. There are many likely reasons why, but the big one naturally is that if they said that then there would be the argument that the opposing player actually gets to move, shoot, etc, with them.

But let's get back to the rules for objectives, remembering that only units in your army treat AoC as being enemy units...in all other ways AoC are still friendly units (you move them, you shoot them, etc).

Page 123, under 'Controlling Objectives' (emphasis mine):

"YOU control an objective if there is at least one model from one of YOUR scoring units and no models from enemy denial units, within 3 inches".


So again, what you see here is the rules asking the players themselves whether one of THEIR personal units is within 3". Unfortunately they do mix the terms in this same paragraph using both 'your' and 'enemy' when they really should have stuck with consistent terminology of 'you'/'opposing' or 'friendly'/'enemy' to make it completely clear.

But still, the point is absolutely clear. The player himself is looking to see if any of his units are within 3" and enemy units from the perspective of the players are those on the opposing sides, as only the units in your army treat AoC as being enemies, not the players themselves.

Glad to have helped.

rigeld2 wrote:
That didn't answer my question at all.
The army earns them - absolutely. Who counts them? The question I actually asked, not the question you want to answer.

page 123 wrote:You control an objective if there is at least one model from one of your scoring units, and no models from enemy denial units, within 3"of it.

Since you control the objective and you do not treat your AoC as enemies, they do not deny.

Thats because the question is irrelevant but it does reveal the truely important question, the act of quantification has nothing to do with the scoring of points. GW plastic kits are incapable of counting. The answer is also variable, my opponent, my kid sister, the 3rd party GM of the scenario, all valid answers. If my opponent counts my army's score first does he score them? Who counts doesn't matter, who scores points is the army. I'm glad you agree but if the army is scoring the points not you why doesn't their perspective on who the enemy is count?

Now Yak's point

 yakface wrote:

But let's get back to the rules for objectives, remembering that only units in your army treat AoC as being enemy units...in all other ways AoC are still friendly units (you move them, you shoot them, etc).

Thats not mentioned anywhere, they are part of your army so you move them, any language making them "friendly units" is entirely inserted by you. To your units they are enemy denial units who happen to be shooting the same guys as them and who for some reason they aren't allowed to shoot yet. The rules give a list of ways they are different from regular enemy models and says nothing about objectives. Being an enemy model doesn't let your opponent move them, they are not part of his army so they can be as enemy as you like to your army and that won't change. Don't confuse "enemy" and "opponents models"

 yakface wrote:

Page 123, under 'Controlling Objectives' (emphasis mine):

"YOU control an objective if there is at least one model from one of YOUR scoring units and no models from enemy denial units, within 3 inches".

But still, the point is absolutely clear. The player himself is looking to see if any of his units are within 3" and enemy units from the perspective of the players are those on the opposing sides, as only the units in your army treat AoC as being enemies, not the players themselves.

I added what i see as the most important bolded point to me there that you didn't emphasise.

We already know from pg122 that the army scores not the player so we need to look at the 3 relevant points bolded in your quoted line to see if they pass all 3.

1. At least one of your models within 3"
They are in your army, being moved by you so barring you borrowing them from a friend (and thus not technically yours) we're gonna let that language go and call that a pass.

2. One of your scoring units.
Assuming they are troops and meet all the requirements they are going to pass here too.

3. and no models from enemy denial units, within 3 inches
pg.112 is very clear how your army feels about these guys, they're enemy models. Looking at the criteria for denial units they must meet them if they are scoring. This means there is an enemy denial unit within 3" of the objective. Your opponent wont score it as they are also an enemy denial unit to his army, but neither do you. It's not a denial unit from an opposing army, not the denial unit of another player it is simply an enemy denial unit, which they are thanks to pg. 112.

edit: Made a hash of my quote boxes, and bolding script apparantely.

Dryunklezahn is correct on his point 3 considering RAW. The unit taking an objective has to satisfy the criteria of having no enemy models within the given range of the objective. YOUR own unit, AoC or otherwise, treats all AoC units as enemies. Thus, the criteria is not met. This is regardless of who counts the VP's/objectives.

This does appear to be a loophole. I personnally believe that it is NOT RAI but its pure speculation on my part. Both RAW and RAI on this issue have sparked debate in our group.

Yak, This is why we need the INAT for Adepticon. Please bring it back.

There are no models from enemy denial units; there are only models from YOUR army that parts of YOUR army treat as an enemy.

YOU do not treat them as an enemy. Possesion is key there; RAW they are NOT denial units to your army.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
There are no models from enemy denial units; there are only models from YOUR army that parts of YOUR army treat as an enemy.

YOU do not treat them as an enemy. Possesion is key there; RAW they are NOT denial units to your army.

Nos,

Before I start this, I want to note that I have great respect for your opinions on RAW. However, there are models for enemy denial units. This is where I do not currently see your point. The question becomes are your AoC units enemy units and are they denial units?

Here is why I claim possesion doesn't metter in this discussion:

From Yakface:
"YOU control an objective if there is at least one model from one of YOUR scoring units and no models from enemy denial units, within 3 inches".

This quote does not reference possesion for denial units. It only notes possesion as a criteria for scoring units. I do not follow your logic on how you inserted possesion into the denial part.

 The_Rogue_Engineer wrote:
The question becomes are your AoC units enemy units and are they denial units?

When determining Victory Points, who must treat AoC as enemy units?

The Context of "YOU control an objective if there is at least one model from one of YOUR scoring units and no models from enemy denial units, within 3 inches". tells us that we are dealing with your "scoring units" and your opponents "enemy denial units".

rigeld2 wrote:

 The_Rogue_Engineer wrote:
The question becomes are your AoC units enemy units and are they denial units?

When determining Victory Points, who must treat AoC as enemy units?

Your units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Context of "YOU control an objective if there is at least one model from one of YOUR scoring units and no models from enemy denial units, within 3 inches". tells us that we are dealing with your "scoring units" and your opponents "enemy denial units".

You are inserting that portion and thats not Rules as Written. The context does not infer that.

 The_Rogue_Engineer wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 The_Rogue_Engineer wrote:
The question becomes are your AoC units enemy units and are they denial units?

When determining Victory Points, who must treat AoC as enemy units?

Your units.

And who determines if an objective is held by you or not - you or your units?

 The_Rogue_Engineer wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 The_Rogue_Engineer wrote:
The question becomes are your AoC units enemy units and are they denial units?

When determining Victory Points, who must treat AoC as enemy units?

Your units.

That is correct.

Who counts the victory points? (You do, as your units can not count).

The_Rogue_Engineer wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The Context of "YOU control an objective if there is at least one model from one of YOUR scoring units and no models from enemy denial units, within 3 inches". tells us that we are dealing with your "scoring units" and your opponents "enemy denial units".

You are inserting that portion and thats not Rules as Written. The context does not infer that.

It does if you parse the sentence correctly.

Basically this quote says it all:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
There are no models from enemy denial units; there are only models from YOUR army that parts of YOUR army treat as an enemy.

YOU do not treat them as an enemy. Possession is key there; RAW they are NOT denial units to your army.

I blame Beasts of War for bringing this up, RAI the AoC are there to help you like a business partner ie Dogbert; AoD are like Catbert and will try to betray you at the drop of a hat or catnip. Also if the inquisition told the imperial guard to hold the line on a objective I believe that they would listen or yah know be mind wiped and enslaved.

rigeld2 wrote:

 The_Rogue_Engineer wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 The_Rogue_Engineer wrote:
The question becomes are your AoC units enemy units and are they denial units?

When determining Victory Points, who must treat AoC as enemy units?

Your units.

And who determines if an objective is held by you or not - you or your units?

You and YOU count them (YOUR units) as scoring if and only if they are no enemy denial units in range. In the case we are describing, they (being "enemy denial units") are in range.

Criteria not met. YOU do not count them.

Except enemy denial units are not in range, as you only have units from primary and allied detachments near the objective.

Even if you have an allied detachment that is near an objective with no other units close to them, they score because they are not enemy units to you, but your units treat them as such, you do not.

Criteria met, as enemy denial units, taken in context, means any units from your opponents roster.

Simple: If its in YOUR Force Org on YOUR Army List, then it is NOT an enemy unit.
So your Ork Ally does not deny you scoring, but your opponents Ork Ally does.

The rules GW put out are trying to say that any Allies you take have to be treated as if they were your regular units as far as assaults, shooting ect. So if you try to drop a pie plate on an enemy unit, and a section of the template touches a model in an ally unit, you cant place the blast their (your targetting one of your own models). The same way you can't assault your last remaining Allied Grot, kill it, then use your consolidation move to springboard onto an objective.

Regardless of the Army type taken as an ally, it is still YOUR Army.

 The_Rogue_Engineer wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 The_Rogue_Engineer wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 The_Rogue_Engineer wrote:
The question becomes are your AoC units enemy units and are they denial units?

When determining Victory Points, who must treat AoC as enemy units?

Your units.

And who determines if an objective is held by you or not - you or your units?

You and YOU count them (YOUR units) as scoring if and only if they are no enemy denial units in range. In the case we are describing, they (being "enemy denial units") are in range.

Criteria not met. YOU do not count them.

Why am I counting my own units as enemy denial units?

The_Rogue_Engineer wrote:

You and YOU count them (YOUR units) as scoring if and only if they are no enemy denial units in range. In the case we are describing, they (being "enemy denial units") are in range.

Criteria not met. YOU do not count them.

Except YOU, who totals the points, do not see any Enemy denial units in range. Your units may see them there, but YOU, the person COUNTING the VPs, does not.

Nothing you state will alter this simple fact

In addition, if they were denial units to your own side they'd never score for you either. Which would mean that the entry under the Desperate Allies about scoring is irrelevant.

Since "Units in your army" include your allies and all.

Tangent: There does not appear to be any RaW that makes your own AoC treat your main detachment as enemies at all. So, while your primary units can't get within 1" of your allies, your allies are under no such compunctions and can cozy right up.

Pyrian wrote:
Tangent: There does not appear to be any RaW that makes your own AoC treat your main detachment as enemies at all. So, while your primary units can't get within 1" of your allies, your allies are under no such compunctions and can cozy right up.

Been lurking, saw this,
a million bricks in a row and built myself a house with 'em. Exalted! (if that even does anything lol!)

Thats a good point, they couldn't cozy up to other AoC's but they could your primary detachment.

I'm seeing a bunch of people arguing they the player are seperate for counting. Sadly this is irrelevant as you can count 0 all you like. You count objectives scored and the army scores VP's right there clear as day in the text. This means for you to have anything to count "your army" must score and "your army" is treating them as enemy denial units.

Taking this to the most extreme and absurd example to make the point:

I move my units within 1" of the enemy, my opponent calls me and says i can't. I point out that those models are my army's enemy but that i'm actually a friend of orks and they aren't the enemy of me the player so it's fine for me to do, nor do they count as denying me the objective. After all, those rules apply to the models perspectives, I can ignore that if I the player feel differently right?

"Simple: If its in YOUR Force Org on YOUR Army List, then it is NOT an enemy unit."
Except it's clear as day in the rules you do. It's in your army so you control it but it is a slightly less dangerous enemy, two different concepts there.

"Also if the inquisition told the imperial guard to hold the line on a objective I believe that they would listen or yah know be mind wiped and enslaved"
Doesn't work for that example, but what about the dozens where it does, Orks and IG (or pretty much anyone) for example. Obviously the IG can't be trusted to get the job done by the Inquisition or they would be Battle Brothers. After all, what if a rival inquisitor is pulling their strings, what if their Colonel is falling to Chaos?

Outside of Battle Brothers allies are tools to be used, but not trusted to bring relics/top secret documents/whatever you decide your objective is back to your primary HQ...




So, boiling this back down to basics as it's getting away from us a bit, if the people who still think they score can answer this simple question, not through opinion or RAI but from rules cited references:

Why since your army scores VP (cited), and since your Army treats AoC as enemy units (cited) why they *don't* deny you the objective by fulfilling the criteria of there being an *enemy models* within 3"

Edit, my preview isn't working and i keep screwing up quote displays.

That question has already been asked and answered.

You, the owner of the army, does not treat them as enemy units. So when you determine if there are any enemy units within 3", YOU do not see any at all.

Explaining it this way may enlighten you.

 yakface wrote:
But I am curious as to if anyone has encountered other players, judges or T.O.s wanting to rule the opposite way (that AoC units do deny your own units from capturing and objective)?

When we check for who/what controls an objective, we check for the presence of enemy denial units, not enemy units, as has been stated above. The AoC units are denial units as long as they follow the criteria listed. There is no check for friendly denial units when checking to see who controls an objective. So by the RAW, I would agree that they don't deny objectives to units from the primary detachment.

This a different take on it, just food for thought.
(This is how our group plays it, since it's unclear if enemy units are denial units which is why this is even a discussion in the first place.)

We treat AoC units as scoring as long as they follow all all the normal restrictions. They aren't treated as denial units to the player who brings them, only to his units on the board and, as mentioned already, they aren't specifically listed as 'Non-scoring'. We do have a line that they are treated as enemy units, but all of the listed references are in regards to how the AoC units act in regards to each other. Both Primary Detachment, and AoC units are denial units to the enemy, just clarifying here. It COULD be the RAI that they do deny to Primary units, and there are players out there who feel this way. Especially after watching the video by the BoW guys.

Since a possible conclusion is that PD unit and AoC units could be denial units to each other, we sat and took a look at the game itself, which is partly why this whole discussion is borderline silly in the first place. When would you have both a PD unit and an AoC unit on the same objective in a game?

Multiple units can control an objective, but the only reason to do that is to gain the benefit of a Mysterious Objective. You only score VPs for each objective you control, not for each unit controlling an objective. I only mention this, because if we treat the AoC units as denial units then neither unit would get the benefit. Other than this reason, we can't think of ANY reason why you would want multiple units holding the same objective at the end of the game, you still score the same VP's.

So we've all just learned simply not keep PD units on the same objective as AoC units and vice versa. This satisfies both the RAW, and the possible RAI. Our group hears this discussion, and think it's going to be pretty rare that you would have both PD/AoC units within 3" of the same objective. Just don't do it, and if it does happen, then add up the VP's as if they were scoring and see if it makes a difference. This is something that we feel will be even more rare than having both controlling an objective. How often Is having a PD and AoC unit on the same objective at the end of the game going to get you that tie breaking VP? How often is it going to happen that you NEED both units on one objective to prevent your opponent from shooting the one controlling the objective, to get that tie-breaking VP? Even with 2 units on an objective PD/AoC or not, all the enemy has to do is get a denial unit withing 3" to deny both, so how often is that a reason to keep 2 units from your list on a single objective anyways.

Edit: NONE OF THIS IS RAW, so thanks to all for taking the time to read it. I only posted this here because I felt that this is in the spirit of what Yakface was asking.

Allies of convenience are treated as enemy units by the primary detatchment of your army. This means they aren't actually enemy units, so they can't deny you your own objective. p123 says "enemy denial units" which they are not.

grrr

 Akar wrote:
Other than this reason, we can't think of ANY reason why you would want multiple units holding the same objective at the end of the game, you still score the same VP's.

Redundancy could be a reason. If you moved first then your opponent will get to attack you before the game ends, and having two units there might make it either more difficult or literally impossible (if they don't have enough units in range to attack both your units) to dislodge you.

On the topic of whether it's the player or the unit, does the rulebook actually regularly make the distinction between whether what counts is the unit's perspective or the player's perspective? From a quick look at other sections I don't see that it really ever makes the distinction. Additionally, the paragraph after this oft-quoted sentence about when you control an objective talks about "a unit" controlling objectives, which I feel muddies the water a little. It does not say, "each unit may only count towards the control of one objective at a time", it talks about the unit controlling an objective, which implies its point of view may be relevant.

That said, I think it's nonsensical for the allied detachment to count as scoring while also being denial units to your own army. If the presence of the allies denies you an objective then the allies being on an objective alone should not count as you holding it. It's even more nonsensical if a desperate alliance would result in the objective not being denied to you due to them explicitly being non-denial units.

The only results that make sense to me are one of the following:

- Ally of Convenience units are not scoring (p.123 says scoring units are "all the units that come from the troops selection of the Force Organisation chart", which doesn't make a lot of sense as there are two Troops sections on the FoC, not one, and troops are selected from the army list, not the FoC. Given they used the singular it's possible that only includes the primary detachment, though as noted in the OP that would make the Desperate Alliance note odd as it implies Allies of Convenience are scoring/denial) and deny you objectives
- Ally of Convenience units are scoring (as it seems like p.123 probably means "from the troops section of the army list" and Desperate Allies implies Allies of Convenience can score) and are not denial units to your side

I think the second one makes the most sense. It would just be silly for allies alone on an objective to count as scoring but not for your army + an allied unit to do the same, though this is a bit RAI as I'm not sure there is a good answer RAW.

So, a couple of replies and still no cited rule, seriously, cite your rules, at the moment them scoring is pure houserule because nothing in the *rulebook* support it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
That question has already been asked and answered.

You, the owner of the army, does not treat them as enemy units. So when you determine if there are any enemy units within 3", YOU do not see any at all.

Explaining it this way may enlighten you.

But as we've already had cited, the army scores not you, it doesn't matter how you the player treat them, only how your army does. You have no citable evidence that supports your claim that the players viewpoint overrides that. Everything that says they deny is cited in the rules, your's is merely opinion. If i put the rulebook between me and the enemy unit i can't see them either, it's irrelevant. Cite the rules.

Akar wrote:we check for the presence of enemy denial units, not enemy units.

Sadly this doesn't work either, that logic suggests and enemy unit that qualifies for denial status and has no rules excluding denial is not an enemy denial unit. By that logic no enemy unit is a denial unit as that is how you determine it's denial status.

grrrfranky wrote:Allies of convenience are treated as enemy units by the primary detatchment of your army. This means they aren't actually enemy units, so they can't deny you your own objective. p123 says "enemy denial units" which they are not.

Actually they are treated as enemy units by your units, not primary detachment. You are trying to argue a unit the rules say to be treated as an enemy denial unit shouldn't be treated as an enemy denial unit...

Hivefleetplastic wrote:I think the second one makes the most sense. It would just be silly for allies alone on an objective to count as scoring but not for your army + an allied unit to do the same, though this is a bit RAI as I'm not sure there is a good answer RAW.

See I disagree, everything that says they would be enemy denial units is there in plain text. The only way this isn't the case is if we introduce this bizarre player/army seperation that has no cited precident.


I'll reiterate the boiled down version to address recent comments:

If you ask the player there are no enemy denial units within 3"
If you could ask the army there is an enemy denial unit within 3"

Who actually scores the points and thus gets a vote?
The Army, it's even in the rules under the objectives section.

Dunkle - actually the rules were cited. YOU determine the score for your army. The units themselves do not determine if they have scored, that is your determination

You can houserule that they deny, but it is a houserule.