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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Dunkle - actually the rules were cited. YOU determine the score for your army. The units themselves do not determine if they have scored, that is your determination

The problem I have with this line of argument is you make all other determinations regarding whether a unit is a friend or an enemy, too. The rules don't ever seem to specify perspective. Additionally, the section on controlling objectives talks about units controlling objectives, which means it would make sense for you to use their point of view there.

 Dunklezahn wrote:
See I disagree, everything that says they would be enemy denial units is there in plain text. The only way this isn't the case is if we introduce this bizarre player/army seperation that has no cited precident.

Do you agree that the Allies of Convenience are scoring units?

Actually they do make a distinction - only you *units* find AoC to be enemies.

Yes, I know that rule makes the distinction, but none of the verbiage anywhere else in the book does. It doesn't constantly flip between specifying whether something is in your perspective or in a unit's perspective. You are demanding that this section be read as asking you to ignore your units' perspective (despite the fact that it speaks to your units' perspectives, eg. "A unit can only control one objective at a time", who is controlling the objective? A unit).

As I said earlier, I find the idea of allied units being scoring for you while denying objectives to you incoherent, but I do not think your RAW argument is on solid ground for the above reason.

Yes, the unit controls the objective. However you are the "thing" that determines the overall score and who has won or lost.

Your units do not know that information. RAW is clear on this, when not read in a convoluted manner

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Actually they do make a distinction - only you *units* find AoC to be enemies.

Exactly and only my units score. I count them but they fulfill the scoring requirement.

I would see your point if the reference in that sentence for enemy units was to YOU, but the reference of enemy units is to YOUR units. I am not within 3" of the objeective, I am not a scoring unit and I am not the enemy of a plastic model.

Nos, you don't know me but i read YMDC frequently. I think this is the first time I disagree with you about RAW.

Respectfully submitted.

rigeld2 wrote:
In addition, if they were denial units to your own side they'd never score for you either. Which would mean that the entry under the Desperate Allies about scoring is irrelevant.

Since "Units in your army" include your allies and all.

I feel like this got ignored.

Using the idea that AoC are denial units, they could never - ever - score. Because they are both a scoring unit and an enemy denial unit. This would make the Desperate Allies rule of never scoring irrelevant, in addition to other issues.
Your units score. You are the one that counts points. How do you count points? Oh, you count points for your army based on if a scoring unit is within range of an objective, etc.

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
In addition, if they were denial units to your own side they'd never score for you either. Which would mean that the entry under the Desperate Allies about scoring is irrelevant.

Since "Units in your army" include your allies and all.

I feel like this got ignored.

Using the idea that AoC are denial units, they could never - ever - score. Because they are both a scoring unit and an enemy denial unit. This would make the Desperate Allies rule of never scoring irrelevant, in addition to other issues.
Your units score. You are the one that counts points. How do you count points? Oh, you count points for your army based on if a scoring unit is within range of an objective, etc.

They're only an enemy denial unit from the perspective of the "allied detachment", which p.112 uses to describe both the allied detachment from the perspective of the primary detachment and the primary detachment from the perspective of the allied detachment. Your scoring allied detachment unit would be able to score unless you moved a denial unit from the primary detachment near it.

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
In addition, if they were denial units to your own side they'd never score for you either. Which would mean that the entry under the Desperate Allies about scoring is irrelevant.

Since "Units in your army" include your allies and all.

I feel like this got ignored.

Using the idea that AoC are denial units, they could never - ever - score. Because they are both a scoring unit and an enemy denial unit. This would make the Desperate Allies rule of never scoring irrelevant, in addition to other issues.
Your units score. You are the one that counts points. How do you count points? Oh, you count points for your army based on if a scoring unit is within range of an objective, etc.

They're only an enemy denial unit from the perspective of the "allied detachment", which p.112 uses to describe both the allied detachment from the perspective of the primary detachment and the primary detachment from the perspective of the allied detachment. Your scoring allied detachment unit would be able to score unless you moved a denial unit from the primary detachment near it.

BRB page 112 wrote:Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, targeted with psychic powers or have templates or blast markers placed over them.

Really? I'm pretty sure that says "Units in your army" and not "Units in your allied detachment".

I'm actually beginning to go the other way on this discussion,

it actually balances out the advantage you get for being able to cherry pick cool stuff to make up for shortfalls in your actual list.

Also, just because your Grey Knights and Eldar have chosen to stand together against Chaos, I'm pretty sure that both of your "factions" are going to want the "uber daemon sword of stealing lunch money" that caused them to band together in the first place....

 Dunklezahn wrote:

Sadly this doesn't work either, that logic suggests and enemy unit that qualifies for denial status and has no rules excluding denial is not an enemy denial unit. By that logic no enemy unit is a denial unit as that is how you determine it's denial status.

Valid point.

It's an interpretation of

'no models from enemy denial units'

1) 'Any denial units belonging to YOUR enemy, ie. your opponent.' This seems to be the common thought from what I've read here, and what I think the rule actually is. What grants a unit scoring or non scoring isn't conditional upon them being an enemy. All units are scoring, and all units are denial units, as outlined on p.123.

2)'Any denial units that are AN enemy.' A slight twist and one that doesn't change anything until we look at AoC. This follows the logic that all of an enemies units are denial units -> Therefore any unit that is an 'enemy', remains a denial unit to an army regardless of whose side it's on -> Conclusion, it remains a denial unit to any objective for either player. Im not discounting that this could be the case, since we know that AoC units are enemy units, that your units can't shoot, charge, join, target, etc. Im not even going to begin to argue that they somehow cease to be a denial unit, even within the presence of a unit from the Main Army.

3)'Anything classified as enemy, can't score for you'. Maybe I overlooked this because I've never seen it this way, but are people trying to say the never count as a scoring unit for the controlling player because they are an 'enemy'? I guess I've never seen this supported anywhere, but if this is what people are trying to do then this could be a serious issue. In order for this stick, they'd have not count as being in your army. If you follow this path, then they are denial units to themselves, and could never hold an objective for you no matter what. Since the AoC doesn't remove them being a scoring unit, then this can't be true.

Im not sure if you're saying that I said that a denial unit is conditional upon belonging to an enemy unit, or if you're stating that we as players play it that way. If I wasn't clear, then let me state my stand right now. All units are denial units, even your own units, as long as they aren't exempted on p.123. However, since they aren't a unit belonging to the enemy, then we don't apply the denial part. It's a bit over-the-top-technical, but they don't cease to be denial units just because you own them.

So when we check to see if they deny an objective, we check for models belonging to belonging to the enemy. We aren't checking for denial units that are treated as an enemy. We sure as hell don't check to see if there are any denial units around at all. To exclude AoC units as part of your army when checking to see if they are scoring, and then check to see if remain a denial unit, when your enemy doesn't control them, is the weaker of the two sides. It rests solely on the interpretation that any enemy unit is a denial unit. It falls under it's own weight since it's still a scoring unit. Again, not discounting this as a possibility but until we get a FAQ stating that they ARE treated as a denial unit to the controlling player, the RAW stands otherwise.

They aren't non-scoring, non-denial units, like they would be if taken as AoD. It doesn't follow any consistent train of thought to have the weakest ally NOT deny a scoring unit in the controlling players army if within 3"of an objective, when a scoring unit from an AoC does?

rigeld2 wrote:

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
In addition, if they were denial units to your own side they'd never score for you either. Which would mean that the entry under the Desperate Allies about scoring is irrelevant.

Since "Units in your army" include your allies and all.

I feel like this got ignored.

Using the idea that AoC are denial units, they could never - ever - score. Because they are both a scoring unit and an enemy denial unit. This would make the Desperate Allies rule of never scoring irrelevant, in addition to other issues.
Your units score. You are the one that counts points. How do you count points? Oh, you count points for your army based on if a scoring unit is within range of an objective, etc.

They're only an enemy denial unit from the perspective of the "allied detachment", which p.112 uses to describe both the allied detachment from the perspective of the primary detachment and the primary detachment from the perspective of the allied detachment. Your scoring allied detachment unit would be able to score unless you moved a denial unit from the primary detachment near it.

BRB page 112 wrote:Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, targeted with psychic powers or have templates or blast markers placed over them.

Really? I'm pretty sure that says "Units in your army" and not "Units in your allied detachment".

The allied detachment is part of your army. p109, "If you wish, your army can include one allied detachment..." Not "your army can fight alongside one allied army", but "can include", ie. the allied detachment is part of the army, though of course they promptly muddy this by referring to "combinations of armies and allies", but whatever. In addition, p.112 talks about them "benefiting from the - of an allied character", ie. the primary detachment are considered allies of the allied detachment as well as the reverse. On top of this, if you don't consider the relationship commutative then your allied detachment should be able to e.g. cast psychic powers on your primary detachment because they don't consider them enemies.

On top of all that, scoring units are explicitly part of the army anyway (p.123) so if you don't think they're part of the army then they can't score and your point is moot regardless.

... I said they're part of the army. That's my point.
Your army treats your AoC as enemy units. Therefore your allied detachment treats themselves as enemy units since we've established your allies are in your army.

Since a scoring unit would also be an enemy denial unit, your AoC could never score.

rigeld2 wrote:
... I said they're part of the army. That's my point.
Your army treats your AoC as enemy units. Therefore your allied detachment treats themselves as enemy units since we've established your allies are in your army.

Since a scoring unit would also be an enemy denial unit, your AoC could never score.

Your allies are in your army, but they're not allied with themselves. They're allied with your primary detachment. That's why they can have their independent characters join their squads, why they can target each other with psychic powers, etc. Your primary detachment are Allies of Convenience to your allied detachment.

For clarity: the rules don't say "your" Allies of Convenience, they say Allies of Convenience. "Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units..." It's a two-way relationship.

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
... I said they're part of the army. That's my point.
Your army treats your AoC as enemy units. Therefore your allied detachment treats themselves as enemy units since we've established your allies are in your army.

Since a scoring unit would also be an enemy denial unit, your AoC could never score.

Your allies are in your army, but they're not allied with themselves. They're allied with your primary detachment. That's why they can have their independent characters join their squads, why they can target each other with psychic powers, etc. Your primary detachment are Allies of Convenience to your allied detachment.

That's irrelevant.
Does your army treat your AoC as enemy units?
Are your AoC in your army?

rigeld2 wrote:

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
... I said they're part of the army. That's my point.
Your army treats your AoC as enemy units. Therefore your allied detachment treats themselves as enemy units since we've established your allies are in your army.

Since a scoring unit would also be an enemy denial unit, your AoC could never score.

Your allies are in your army, but they're not allied with themselves. They're allied with your primary detachment. That's why they can have their independent characters join their squads, why they can target each other with psychic powers, etc. Your primary detachment are Allies of Convenience to your allied detachment.

That's irrelevant.
Does your army treat your AoC as enemy units?
Are your AoC in your army?

Please see my edit above. They're not "your" AoC. They are AoC. AoC is a relative condition. It is two-way. Your entire primary detachment are Allies of Convenience from the perspective of the allied detachment.

The rule actually takes some care to point out that AoC are treated as enemy models in a specific context. Taking that rule out of its specific context doesn't merely make them denial, it makes them literally unusable. You can never move, shoot, charge, or do anything else with them that you couldn't do to enemy models. The argument being presented that it should not be read in-context is not only not RaW, it makes the ally rules not work at all.

rigeld2 wrote:
Therefore your allied detachment treats themselves as enemy units...

You do realize that creates enormous problems for them? Like, they can never move, deploy, or even deep-strike, as they will always end up within 1" of an enemy model?

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

Please see my edit above. They're not "your" AoC. They are AoC. AoC is a relative condition. It is two-way. Your entire primary detachment are Allies of Convenience from the perspective of the allied detachment.

I see what you're saying now - thanks, and you're right.

Let me rethink things.

"YOU control an objective if there is at least one model from one of YOUR scoring units and no models from enemy denial units, within 3 inches" (123)

Parsing that sentence correctly tells us that they are talking about you and your opponent's perspective, not the units on the field's perspective.

rigeld2 wrote:

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

Please see my edit above. They're not "your" AoC. They are AoC. AoC is a relative condition. It is two-way. Your entire primary detachment are Allies of Convenience from the perspective of the allied detachment.

I see what you're saying now - thanks, and you're right.

Let me rethink things.

Thanks! I'm glad we could agree on that. Honestly, that whole section is pretty airy-fairy - the best I could find as evidence that the relationship was two-way was... sort of general verbiage and the examples given in the section. Obviously people play it that way, but... I don't know where to find solid evidence that it's how you're meant to play it.

 DeathReaper wrote:
"YOU control an objective if there is at least one model from one of YOUR scoring units and no models from enemy denial units, within 3 inches" (123)

Parsing that sentence correctly tells us that they are talking about you and your opponent's perspective, not the units on the field's perspective.

On the other hand, the next paragraph talks about objectives being controlled by a unit, which suggests that the unit's perspective should apply.

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
On the other hand, the next paragraph talks about objectives being controlled by a unit, which suggests that the unit's perspective should apply.

In cases like that, the rule itself should be the guide.

It is, there must be no enemy units within 3", and there are. The big problem is a bunch of people are confusing enemy unit and opponents units, they are not the same thing.
Thos AoC are enemy of your units *and* your opponent/s but they are still part of your army. That is why you can move them.

Also Death, stop trying to pass the sentance off with parsing, it's an *AND* Boolian logical statement. The enemy units part is a seperate criteria that must be met using the same language as presented in the AoC section. AoC's pass the first 2 parts but fail the third. They could have easily added YOUR enemy denial units but you'll notice that word is completely absent, It was written by someone who knew AoC's were Enemy units under your control it seems.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Dunkle - actually the rules were cited. YOU determine the score for your army. The units themselves do not determine if they have scored, that is your determination

You can houserule that they deny, but it is a houserule.

I'll quote it again:

"To determine the number of victory points an *army* has earned, we use mission objectives." Pg 122

Emphasis mine, notice the complete absence or "your" "you" "player" "general" or any other term you could try and attribute to the player. The players viewpoint is irrelevant, if i have to let someone finish a game for me it doesn't become turn 1 because from his perspective it is. Seriously, cite the actual text not how you remember/interpret it, i'm taking the time to look them up, you can do the same.

 Dunklezahn wrote:
It is, there must be no enemy units within 3", and there are. The big problem is a bunch of people are confusing enemy unit and opponents units, they are not the same thing.
Thos AoC are enemy of your units *and* your opponent/s but they are still part of your army. That is why you can move them.

The bolded is still not correct. There are units that are treated as enemies by your units, which is not the same as them actually being enemies, the necessary condition for them to deny the objective.

grrr

That sentence does not state anything like what you have claimed

The number of victory points is earned by the army [which is what your quote says], but actually determined by the owning player [which your quote is silent on]

For example please show where "First Blood" is calculated by an individual unit, as you are claiming is possible. One unit, without reference to the controlling players knowledge of the game at all

So, are we any closer to a consensus on this?

I have a meeting to discuss a Tournament on Wednesday.....

Yes - the consensus is that they are not denial units to your own army, as it is not your army that determines Victory Poiints but you, the player - and you, the player, does not see them as denial units.

Edit: to make it clear - there is SOME disagreement, but that disagreement lacks any rules backing

Ok, Nosferatu1001, thanks for that.

So just to clarify,

They can't claim objectives, but they don't self deny?

ghpoobah wrote:
Ok, Nosferatu1001, thanks for that.

So just to clarify,

They can't claim objectives, but they don't self deny?

They can claim objectives, but they don't deny your army.

Allied AoC can score AND deny, but are NOT denial units from the perspective of your army

(From same Army - AoC scoring unit + Primary Scoring unit both on objective means you still score that objective)

Not sure I agree with that, but, if thats what everyone thinks.....

ghpoobah wrote:
Not sure I agree with that, but, if thats what everyone thinks.....

Well as NoS said:

(The underlined is the most important bit).

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes - the consensus is that they are not denial units to your own army, as it is not your army that determines Victory Poiints but you, the player - and you, the player, does not see them as denial units.

Edit: to make it clear - there is SOME disagreement, but that disagreement lacks any rules backing