Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've never really liked the all or nothing way armor penetration affects armor saves. It bugged me that there was this absolute drop off in effectiveness of armor. Just one less AP and your marines might as well now be wearing paper armor, not power armor. Yet go one step in the other direction (+1 AP) and the armor is just as effective as it would be against a lead pipe.

I just want to stretch this change in armor effectiveness out a bit, but not drastically so.

Just two changes really...

If the AP value is equal to the Armor Save, you get a 6+ save instead of negating the save altogether.

To balance this in the other direction, if the AP value is just one higher than the Armor Save you modify the result of the save by -1. AP 4 makes 3+ into 4+ for example.

Now we're having all sorts of fun! Power Swords are just a bit more effective against Terminators, whereas Artificer Armor now has a slight chance to deflect that Power Fist. Helturkeys still murder marines in droves, and hey they even make Termies sweat a little more, but now that Power Armor has a snowball's chance in hell to prevent serious burns! Guardsmen don't crap themselves anymore at the sight of Bolters, well 1 in 6 of them anyway, but multi-lasers sting them a bit more.

Try it out a bit. Tell me what you guys think.

I like this one

If the AP value is equal to the Armor Save, you get a 6+ save instead of negating the save altogether.



this one not so much.

if the AP value is just one higher than the Armor Save you modify the result of the save by -1.

maybe for every 2 AP values -1 to the armor save. So the rule would be

if the AP value is two higher than the Armor Save you modify the result of the save by -1.

No, just no, if we're going for modifiers just use the fantasy version, its simpler and works, this would also mean that every army in the game would need recosting..

If you want proportional Saves ,simply use a straight forward resolution method for all units.

EG
Give all models an Armour value ,(from 1 to 14)Give all weapons an Armour Piercing value.( from 5 to 18.)

If the save roll + models armour value is higher than the weapons AP , it makes its save.
If the save roll + models armour value is equal to or less than the AP of the weapon , the weapon penetrates the armour.(The models armour fails to stop the weapon hit.)
And the attacker rolls to damage the soft target behind the armour.

Roll to target, roll to penetrate armour, roll to wound/damage.
It makes more sense to use modern war game resolution mechanics, than WHFB's ancient ones.. IMO.

But this would lead to looking at re-writing the rest of the 40k rules for well defined intuitive resolution.

 Formosa wrote:
No, just no, if we're going for modifiers just use the fantasy version, its simpler and works, this would also mean that every army in the game would need recosting..

Actually my changes are balanced against the whole field of AP values, except that 6+ is a little better. So nothing needs to be recosted. It may throw off the meta-game but so does any rule change.

There is also only one modifier so it's easy to remember.

Quick and dirty chart

AP vs Sv

- | 2+ 3+ 4+ 5+ 6+
----------------------
6 | 2+ 3+ 4+ 6+ 6+
5 | 2+ 3+ 5+ 6+
4 | 2+ 4+ 6+
3 | 3+ 6+
2 | 6+

It'd nerf marines imo since AP4 weaponry is scattered around and specifically costed to take into account its inneffectiveness against 3+ armour.

But getting a 6+ if the armour value is the same as the AP, that I dig.

 BryllCream wrote:
It'd nerf marines imo since AP4 weaponry is scattered around and specifically costed to take into account its inneffectiveness against 3+ armour.

But getting a 6+ if the armour value is the same as the AP, that I dig.

Marines could use a little nerf and an extra 1/6 disadvantage against AP 4 is made up by the 1/6 they would now get against AP 3.

Not trying to hijack, but I'd love your opinions on what Lanrak, Dast, and I are working on.

We've touched on this in the "40k in 40 pages" thread. I took a more complicated route than Lanrak suggested above, but we'll balance it soon.


As for on topic!

If it's across the board, most of the game can still be played as normal. The only things that will become much better are AP 4 because they generally costed with the knowledge that they can't hurt marines.

However, if you are willing to play test you might find that isn't the case. It might just make for more diversity of weapons vs spamming.

If you want o use the current values of AP and armour saves.
And get proportional results from these.

You could simply say the AP value negates the armour save roll of equal or higher..

EG
AP 5 discounts the saving rolls of 5 or 6.

So A SM with a save of 3+ only gets to keep the save of 3 and 4 vs an Ap 5 weapon.Any rolls of 5 or 6 are discounted.

A terminator normaly gets a save roll of 2,3,4,5,6.
Vs an AP 4 weapon they get a save of 2 or 3.
The values of 4 5 and 6 are discounted if they are rolled for a save.

Its a simple idea , and easy to implement.(But current PV would need adjusting...)

That is definitely the simplest and the easiest step.

However, that would make the game so much bloodier. Granted, it might need that seeing as how codex creep has made it so there are more and more models on the table.