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If a unit with flaming attacks charges a unit of Fear-causing cavalry, is it true that the model with flaming attacks ignored the Fear special rule of the cavalry? As far as I can tell, it does, as it is stated that the flame-wielder causes Fear. This implies it has the special rule Fear, correct? But is this immunity to Fear lost when fighting a non-affected type of unit? In the rule, it states(pg 69) that "Models that cause fear are themselves immune to fear, and are not affected by any of this rule's effects. This includes characters riding fear causing mounts, who count as causing fear themselves.". It does not say "always cause Fear", it says "cause fear". There is no restriction on the circumstances in which they cause fear, only that they do. In this case, are models with flaming attacks immune to fear? Are models with flaming mounts(my unkillable tzeentch lord comes to mind) immune to fear? If so, we have a nice added bonus to an already helpful rule.

PS. Sorry for the inconsistent capitalization, I'm typing on a tablet.

That sounds right, and the logic seems valid.

Had not really considered it much. . .I am certain people will refute soon enough if it is not correct.


Including myself after I re-read more.
^^

Kirsanth: Well, good to know that I did not make a particularly obvious mistake. If you do reread it, can you confirm that at least quote-wise I made no omission of some other pertinent phrase?

Also, the FAQ does not address this. Can someone point me towards an earlier discussion of this topic, if one exists?

Yes, they say models with flaming attacks cause Fear to Cavalry, Warbeasts, and Chariots.

If two models cause fear, the two cancel out.


So having flaming attacks basically makes you immune to Fear causing Warbeasts, Cavalry, and Chariots. And if those things cause Terror you treat it as Fear only.

(other)

Models with flaming attacks cause Fear to Cavalry, Warbeasts, and Chariots.

If you have a Flaming unit attack Vamp black knights you would be immune to the Fear.
If you had the same Flaming unit attack a unit of Vamp Grave Guard you would be subject to Fear.

While flaming attacks don't automaticly cancel Fear you do get a pass against Cav, WB and Chariots. Kind of strange that it works out that way but it does.

Good catch.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, they say models with flaming attacks cause Fear to Cavalry, Warbeasts, and Chariots.

If two models cause fear, the two cancel out.


So having flaming attacks basically makes you immune to Fear causing Warbeasts, Cavalry, and Chariots. And if those things cause Terror you treat it as Fear only.

But in the rule it does not say "If a model always causes fear' it is immune". It says "If a model causes fear". If at any point it does cause fear, or if it is ever capable of so doing, it causes fear(as in the rule it is stated the opponent does not have to be affected(for example, your opponent could also cause fear and be immune) but that you cause fear. It does not say that you need the special rule, only that you are able to cause fear. Sorry if I made a typo, this is again from a tablet.

Both cause fear, both cancel out.

Yes, re-reading it that seems valid.
Initially I read it (and can only assume others do) that when fighting chariots (etc.) the model causes fear, but that is not the case - the model causes fear in chariots (etc.).

Huh never really though of that

Sure does make flaming banner an even better choice on some units

Camarodragon wrote:
(other)

Models with flaming attacks cause Fear to Cavalry, Warbeasts, and Chariots.

If you have a Flaming unit attack Vamp black knights you would be immune to the Fear.
If you had the same Flaming unit attack a unit of Vamp Grave Guard you would be subject to Fear.

While flaming attacks don't automaticly cancel Fear you do get a pass against Cav, WB and Chariots. Kind of strange that it works out that way but it does.

Here is the problem. You are stating that only when Fear is caused are you immune. But this cannot be true. What if you charged a unit of Slaaneshi warriors who contain a fear causing character with your Fear causing character. As in this instance fear is not caused, you are not immune to his Fear. That is wrong, and thus whether or not Fear is currently caused, it only matters that it could be if determining immunity.

Just because the enemy is immune to fear, that doesn't remove the rule from you. Do demons fighting a frenzied unit loose their fear, no the enemies just don't care.

 HoverBoy wrote:
Just because the enemy is immune to fear, that doesn't remove the rule from you. Do demons fighting a frenzied unit loose their fear, no the enemies just don't care.

I know. But the wording is "Models that cause Fear are themselves immune to Fear..." which means that if you say that in order to qualify the model must cause Fear in this particular for, which we know is not true. Thus my interpretation remains correct.

"Models with flaming attacks cause Fear to Cavalry, Warbeasts, and Chariots. "

The models you are fighting is a qualifier test to see if You have the Fear special rule that bestowed from the banner.

"Whilst Flaming attacks do not give bonuses to most troops....." (flaming attacks USR) you do not cause fear against infantry..

You would check for this qualifier at the start of each CC round as stated under FEAR USR.

Camarodragon wrote:
"Models with flaming attacks cause Fear to Cavalry, Warbeasts, and Chariots. "

The models you are fighting is a qualifier test to see if You have the Fear special rule that bestowed from the banner.

"Whilst Flaming attacks do not give bonuses to most troops....." (flaming attacks USR) you do not cause fear against infantry..

You would check for this qualifier at the start of each CC round as stated under FEAR USR.

Yet as they do cause Fear, although not against this enemy, they still do not suffer negative effects from Fear, as they do cause Fear(just not right now).

The model with fire always causes fear, but that fear only applies to certain units, the way it is written.

 kirsanth wrote:
The model with fire always causes fear, but that fear only applies to certain units, the way it is written.

Im not following how you come to that conclusion.

I read it as the model only gets fear against certain units.

Yes. But he always gets it. If you want you can think of it as:
Special Rules
Fear (only to Cavalry, Warbeasts, Chariots)

But that special rule is always in effect.

I prefer the FAQ:

Q: Do all forms of Flaming Attacks cause Fear in war beasts,
cavalry and chariots? (p69)
A: Yes, any model that has a Flaming Attack will cause Fear.
This includes unit upgrades, models that only have ranged
flaming attacks and even Wizards with spells that cause
Flaming Attacks.

Camarodragon wrote:
I prefer the FAQ:

Q: Do all forms of Flaming Attacks cause Fear in war beasts,
cavalry and chariots? (p69)
A: Yes, any model that has a Flaming Attack will cause Fear.
This includes unit upgrades, models that only have ranged
flaming attacks and even Wizards with spells that cause
Flaming Attacks.

Sure.
A: Yes, any model that has a Flaming Attack will cause Fear.
Note the full stop.

The idea that the unit does not cause fear if the its opponent is not subject to that fear is wrong.

 kirsanth wrote:

Camarodragon wrote:
I prefer the FAQ:

Q: Do all forms of Flaming Attacks cause Fear in war beasts,
cavalry and chariots? (p69)
A: Yes, any model that has a Flaming Attack will cause Fear.
This includes unit upgrades, models that only have ranged
flaming attacks and even Wizards with spells that cause
Flaming Attacks.

Sure.
A: Yes, any model that has a Flaming Attack will cause Fear.
Note the full stop.

The idea that the unit does not cause fear if the its opponent is not subject to that fear is wrong.

Exactly. To be honest, this even makes sense if you consider how crazy you'd have to be to carry a flaming weapon. I guess fluff and rules do match up.

To be fair though, I had not really considered this application of it until reading this thread.

Thank you Vardy.

Without taking the time to re-read I would have assumed it was wrong.

 kirsanth wrote:
To be fair though, I had not really considered this application of it until reading this thread.

Thank you Vardy.

Without taking the time to re-read I would have assumed it was wrong.

You're welcome. Of course, convincing people to allow this during man actual game might be challenging.

Pointing out the text has always worked for me.
Clarifying things that are often and easily misread is not really a problem.

Does this mean that elves are all immune to fear also since goblins fear them?

 kirsanth wrote:
Yes, re-reading it that seems valid.
Initially I read it (and can only assume others do) that when fighting chariots (etc.) the model causes fear, but that is not the case - the model causes fear in chariots (etc.).

Sorry, but what's the difference? You don't cause fear outside of combat.

 Vardy wrote:

Here is the problem. You are stating that only when Fear is caused are you immune. But this cannot be true. What if you charged a unit of Slaaneshi warriors who contain a fear causing character with your Fear causing character. As in this instance fear is not caused, you are not immune to his Fear.

I fail to see the problem despite your effort. Why is fear not caused when fear is caused?

 Vardy wrote:

Yet as they do cause Fear, although not against this enemy, they still do not suffer negative effects from Fear, as they do cause Fear(just not right now).

That's a contradiction. At this point they can either cause fear or not. They do not, ergo the rule does not apply. Something they do not have "right now" cannot possibly have an effect "right now".

 kirsanth wrote:

Note the full stop.

The idea that the unit does not cause fear if the its opponent is not subject to that fear is wrong.

The idea is that unit A cf (B, C, D) does not cause fear in E. The idea is correct. D cannot be affected, and from B, C cannot be inferred "everyone".

The full stop is of little import. Note that the answer also contains a "Yes" to the qualifiers. The question also is about whether all possible sources of flaming attacks have the limited effect cf(B, C, D). The question is not about whether the limited effect works unlimited, and neither is the answer. All it does is clarify the sources.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:
Yes, re-reading it that seems valid.
Initially I read it (and can only assume others do) that when fighting chariots (etc.) the model causes fear, but that is not the case - the model causes fear in chariots (etc.).

Sorry, but what's the difference? You don't cause fear outside of combat.

 Vardy wrote:

Here is the problem. You are stating that only when Fear is caused are you immune. But this cannot be true. What if you charged a unit of Slaaneshi warriors who contain a fear causing character with your Fear causing character. As in this instance fear is not caused, you are not immune to his Fear.

I fail to see the problem despite your effort. Why is fear not caused when fear is caused?

 Vardy wrote:

Yet as they do cause Fear, although not against this enemy, they still do not suffer negative effects from Fear, as they do cause Fear(just not right now).

That's a contradiction. At this point they can either cause fear or not. They do not, ergo the rule does not apply. Something they do not have "right now" cannot possibly have an effect "right now".

 kirsanth wrote:

Note the full stop.

The idea that the unit does not cause fear if the its opponent is not subject to that fear is wrong.

The idea is that unit A cf (B, C, D) does not cause fear in E. The idea is correct. D cannot be affected, and from B, C cannot be inferred "everyone".

The full stop is of little import. Note that the answer also contains a "Yes" to the qualifiers. The question also is about whether all possible sources of flaming attacks have the limited effect cf(B, C, D). The question is not about whether the limited effect works unlimited, and neither is the answer. All it does is clarify the sources.

But the problem with your argument is the way the Fear rule is written. It does not say that the enemy must be affected by Fear, only that your unit causes it. If your unit causes Fear in Cavalry, Warbeasts, and Chariots, he causes Fear. That is all that matters. Fear is not caused in an immune enemy. Having the special rule is not actually a requirement for any of the effects.

Basically to see if you ignore Fear, check your rules. Is there someone who you can cause Fear in? Yes? Congratulations, you're immune. No? Well, then this doesn't apply.

Also, why do you say chronologically distanced events do not matter? To prevent the wm from doing so it would have to be worded to explicitly check to see when it caused Fear, etc.

Au contraire. Causing fear in A, B, C is not the same as causing fear. In case your unit fights something not A, B, C, your unit does not cause fear. It is limited to the explicitly defined cases, otherwise the limitation to only a few unit types would be completely redundant and the rules interchangeable.

To apply the rule correctly, you need to check if your unit causes fear at this point in time and in this situation. Whether the enemy is affected, ie. whether he would take an Ld test is indeed not relevant; that does not need to be checked. Those BotEF guys still do not cause fear against infantry, be they Skellies or State Troops.

When you say that "fear is not caused in an immune enemy", how do you know who is immune and who causes fear? A Vamp causes fear against Imperial Knights, okay. If said Knights carry the BotEF or are accompanied by a WP, they are immune*. Ergo the Vamp does not cause fear - how then could he be immune to fear himself? That - causing fear - was the source of his immunity. Perhaps I'm mincing words but I don't understand it.

Also, why do you say chronologically distanced events do not matter? To prevent the wm from doing so it would have to be worded to explicitly check to see when it caused Fear, etc.

Chronologically distanced events? Not quite. I'm talking about effects being subject to certain prerequisites. Handgunners don't get AP just because they sometimes get AP. Markus Wolfheart does not get any boni against infantry because he gets boni against monsters. You need to look at the concrete situation. Causing fear against a warbeast does in no shape or form imply that it causes fear against infantry or troglodytes or Fishmen. The limitation is there for a reason, namely to differentiate from sources of fear that apply against infantry.

*According to your definition that cf (some) = cf (all) which I disagree with.

AP is always per model or per weapon and the rules for them specify the difference. Thus the lack of the AP banner in my Khalida unit.

Your wording is confusing you since it does not match the rules.

It does not ask if the target of the Fear is subject to its effects, merely that the unit in question causes Fear - without the assumed stipulation that the fear needs to affect its current target. The rules do not back that assumption anywhere I have read.

 Mike der Ritter wrote:
Au contraire. Causing fear in A, B, C is not the same as causing fear. In case your unit fights something not A, B, C, your unit does not cause fear. It is limited to the explicitly defined cases, otherwise the limitation to only a few unit types would be completely redundant and the rules interchangeable.

To apply the rule correctly, you need to check if your unit causes fear at this point in time and in this situation. Whether the enemy is affected, ie. whether he would take an Ld test is indeed not relevant; that does not need to be checked. Those BotEF guys still do not cause fear against infantry, be they Skellies or State Troops.

When you say that "fear is not caused in an immune enemy", how do you know who is immune and who causes fear? A Vamp causes fear against Imperial Knights, okay. If said Knights carry the BotEF or are accompanied by a WP, they are immune*. Ergo the Vamp does not cause fear - how then could he be immune to fear himself? That - causing fear - was the source of his immunity. Perhaps I'm mincing words but I don't understand it.

Also, why do you say chronologically distanced events do not matter? To prevent the wm from doing so it would have to be worded to explicitly check to see when it caused Fear, etc.

Chronologically distanced events? Not quite. I'm talking about effects being subject to certain prerequisites. Handgunners don't get AP just because they sometimes get AP. Markus Wolfheart does not get any boni against infantry because he gets boni against monsters. You need to look at the concrete situation. Causing fear against a warbeast does in no shape or form imply that it causes fear against infantry or troglodytes or Fishmen. The limitation is there for a reason, namely to differentiate from sources of fear that apply against infantry.

*According to your definition that cf (some) = cf (all) which I disagree with.

This was my line reasoning that I was trying to convey but I didnt want to write it all out.

But what about the FAQ then mike.? would A group of spear men with a flaming banner have fear vs. grave guard and vs black knights.?