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OK, so in the book, the Wolf King talks about how the Space Wolves are the Emperor's Executioners. IF we accept that thought process, what are the other legions?
The explanation for why they were the Emperor's Executioners was IMHO rather flimsy.
"No other Legion has the ability to throw away their morals and do the things we do."
Orly? So the World Eaters, Night Lords, and Iron Warriors, legions of berserkers, murderers, and cruel sadists respectively, couldn't do that?
Now, IIRC later books explained it was their ruthlessness combined with their efficiency, discipline, and pragmatism that made them fit Executioners, which is easier to swallow.
Anyway, for the most part, they are all just soldiers. The Ultramarines are able governors I guess, but I can't think of what other Legions would be in this regard.
Doesn't Sevatar mention something about the Wolves being the executioners, but the Night Lords being something else... do they just refer to themselves as murderers?
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Alfndrate wrote: Doesn't Sevatar mention something about the Wolves being the executioners, but the Night Lords being something else... do they just refer to themselves as murderers?
The quotes in question.
"Because we cannot be trusted. The Emperor needs a weapon that will never obey its own desires before the good of others. Most of all, he needs a weapon that will never bite the hand that feeds. We are not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor needs. The Wolves obey, when we might not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we couldn't. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.
The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does."
-- Eighth Captain Kharn, when asked why the World Eaters aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it?
The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."
-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
Alfndrate wrote: Doesn't Sevatar mention something about the Wolves being the executioners, but the Night Lords being something else... do they just refer to themselves as murderers?
Yeah, I had that quote in mind when I wrote my post.
Alfndrate wrote: Doesn't Sevatar mention something about the Wolves being the executioners, but the Night Lords being something else... do they just refer to themselves as murderers?
The quotes in question.
"Because we cannot be trusted. The Emperor needs a weapon that will never obey its own desires before the good of others. Most of all, he needs a weapon that will never bite the hand that feeds. We are not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor needs. The Wolves obey, when we might not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we couldn't. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.
The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does."
-- Eighth Captain Kharn, when asked why the World Eaters aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it?
The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."
-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
Not that anyone would argue the point, but i would just like to reiterate how awesome and how much i love ADB.
There is only the Emperor! He is our shield and protector.
Yeah, but despite saying the above and justifying them as executioners (where's that sevatar quote from btw?), AD-B also commented (quotes from another thread and spoilerised for space) on how the Wolves aren't necessarily the executioners, but this may simply be an image they like to portray. At the very least, however, several sources (such as the above, Prospero Burns and the Dan Abnett interview) seem to support them as executioners, despite what AD-B says:
apologies, its been quite a long time since i read it! (hence the "i think" disclaimer - im old and my memory is fuzzy )
it was definitely the impression i got that that other than his martial prowess it was the real reason he was sent on these dirty tasks - he was sent because he would follow the order to its fullest without qualm.
The suit definitely fits and i havent read anything that would discredit it? open to correction though!
Not saying it doesn't fit.
But there is a world of difference between (A) Emperor looked around and picked the guy best suited to the job and (B) Emperor knew from the get-go that this job need to be done, so he CREATED the Wolves with that task in mind (or, infact, made any of the Space Marine Legions with any cause as specific as this in mind).
If you want to make a case for (B) over (A), the burden of proof would be on showing that (B) actually has some mileage. The default assumption should likely be (A).
It's a neat theory, as said, because it COULD be true. But, having only one "biased" source (e.g. an "in-character" statement by a non-Space Marine character aligned with the Thousand Sons) is far from solid evidence that (B) is actually the case.
Indeed, it is just as plausible that the statement in question (the Emperor created the Wolves to execute other SM Legions) voiced at this point in time by a Thousand Sons advisor was a symptom of (or a way the author wanted to show) the Thousand Sons disenchantment with the Emperor and their slow turning away from the Imperium: e.g. paranoid theories are thrown around to justify and/or motivate their course of action and secession.
The "Biased" character is an IG (Imperial Army) commander who faught with Blood Angels, Death Guard, White Scars and Space Wolves. Says everyone has heard rumors of "Monster" Legions and the Space Wolves are the worst of all of them. He then voices the question that (much like yourself) as to why the Space Wolves were made how they are. And he has basically the same answers you have. A: The Emperor just made them or B: The Emperor sees threats that noone else sees.
The problem is that Dan Abnett says in an interview that the Space Wolves are how they are because they are ment to kill other Legions. Link to Video. A statement backed up In Battle of Fang when the senior Wolf Priest take aside a human and tells him as much and in Fear to Tread when Redknife adresses his squad. So it is not something that just happens in Prospero Burns.
Just to interject on this point, but at risk of dragging this dangerously off-topic, AD-B actually said on his FB that the Wolves aren't necessarily the Emperor's Executioner's, but this is an image they like to portray.
He makes a great point and is obviously a well-respected BL author and about as much a voice of authority as you'll get on the subject, however, it does of course go against the comment by Dan in the video above, and seems to undermine the efforts to portray them as executioners in at least Prospero Burns. #Canon?
It was in response to this extract from Betrayer: "And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?"
Some quotes:
Adam Edwards:
I've always considered it a matter of suitability. Whilst all Legions are full fighting forces some are more suited to different roles. Want to defend a planet then Imperial Fist are your best bet. Want to assault a huge fortress then the Luna Wolves or Dark Angels or Blood Angels. Want to cut your enemies supply lines and escape routes then White Scars or perhaps Raven Guard. Whilst all Legions can fight whole wars each Legion leans towards an area where they excel. For the Wolves this is fighting other legions that coupled with the Canis Helix and totems protecting them from warp influence mean they're also better suited to face psykers too. This is not to say they couldn't be beaten far from it I'm merely stating if you had a legion you needed to take down hard and fast, put them out of action you'd probably want the Wolves.
Aaron Dembski-Bowden:
The Wolves agree with you, Adam. Just don't be shocked when most of the other Legions don't. Every Legion can point to 2 or 3 exceptions that would make them the best for killing other Legions. It's all propaganda. The Wolves are no better suited to that task than anyone.
David Martin:
If the Wolves truly are no better at fighting other Space Marines, except their mindset/lack of constraint, then could this not suggest their role as 'executioners' (as admitted by more than just Wolves, such as Kharn or even used as such by Malcador) is either inaccurate or exaggerated? Or that the differences between Legions (or matters of suitability as Adam mentioned, which I agree with) are overhyped?
Aaron Dembski-Bowden:
I imagine, David, that many Legions and primarchs think Russ and his men invented their position, and consider him a self-appointed "executioner". Even the only incident of execution we've seen from them wasn't because the Emperor ordered it, but because Horus talked Russ into it.
David Martin:
I don't doubt that for a second, but doesn't Fear To Tread suggest its believed by others, really high up, as well?
Just to clarify, I'm not disputing what you're saying Aaron, you'll know more than me, just asking questions.
Aaron Dembski-Bowden:
I'm sure others believe it, David. Malcador seems to. There's no evidence he believes the Wolves are better (he wouldn't, he's not that ignorant) but he might believe (or encourage) Russ's claim of executioner. But...
When the Emperor wanted a Legion watched, he sent the Custodians. That's how crazy-important it was. He used his own bodyguards. Maybe in case they needed to take down a primarch. Maybe just because he trusted them above all others.
When the Wolves get sent to watch other primarchs and Legions, he doesn't have the authority to send the Custodians. Looks different in that light, no?
Edited for clarity
To which someone came up with this interpretation, that I like:
Michał Kubiak:
I think that the main thing about Russ and his pups was always the fact that they chose to be whatever the Emperor needed them to be. There are no perfect Primarchs, they all made mistakes and paid for them, but in my opinion Russ is the one who would agree to be the boogeyman or the fool as required. In "Prospero Burns" one of the Wolves answers Hawser's question about whether or not they are capable of cannibalism with "We're capable of pretty much anything". That always struck me as meaningful. Maybe that's just me, though.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
Anyway, for the most part, they are all just soldiers. The Ultramarines are able governors I guess, but I can't think of what other Legions would be in this regard.
Any legion if it is what their Primarch had wanted. Study of the Arts was something that the Emperors Children were encouraged to do, I'm pretty sure that if Fulgrim had said to do the same of Politics they would have with gusto. Ferrus Manus on the other hand though seems to have accepted what he was, leader of an army, and little more accepting his role.
Anyway, for the most part, they are all just soldiers. The Ultramarines are able governors I guess, but I can't think of what other Legions would be in this regard.
Any legion if it is what their Primarch had wanted. Study of the Arts was something that the Emperors Children were encouraged to do, I'm pretty sure that if Fulgrim had said to do the same of Politics they would have with gusto. Ferrus Manus on the other hand though seems to have accepted what he was, leader of an army, and little more accepting his role.
Actually, the story about Ferrus Manus in The Primarchs mentions how, when he first met Dorn, Guilliman, The Lion,and Sanguinius, he was bothered by how simple he seemed in comparison. On his world he was by far the greatest, strongest. But next to these others, he felt like his pre-Emperor accomplishments were pathetic and quaint. He worried about being seen as nothing more than a lineman, someone to fill a gap, alongside the likes of Perturabo and Mortarion, rather than as someone truly great.
The other primarchs didn't see him that way. Guilliman especially lamented that it was Manus's dependability that had helped him win many a campaign.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/13 16:12:48
Anyway, for the most part, they are all just soldiers. The Ultramarines are able governors I guess, but I can't think of what other Legions would be in this regard.
Any legion if it is what their Primarch had wanted. Study of the Arts was something that the Emperors Children were encouraged to do, I'm pretty sure that if Fulgrim had said to do the same of Politics they would have with gusto. Ferrus Manus on the other hand though seems to have accepted what he was, leader of an army, and little more accepting his role.
Actually, the story about Ferrus Manus in The Primarchs mentions how, when he first met Dorn, Guilliman, The Lion,and Sanguinius, he was bothered by how simple he seemed in comparison. On his world he was by far the greatest, strongest. But next to these others, he felt like his pre-Emperor accomplishments were pathetic and quaint. He worried about being seen as nothing more than a lineman someone to fill a gap, alongside the likes of Perturabo and Mortarion, rather than as someone truly great.
The other primarchs didn't see him that way. Guilliman especially lamented that it was Manus's dependability that had helped him win many a campaign.
True, but he doesn't seem to have encouraged his Sons to be anything other than the weapon they were meant to be. If he had, then I am sure his Sons could have been as diplomatic as any Son of Guilliman, which is my point. I wasn't saying that Ferrus had not achieved anything, just that he seems to have been more accepting of his lot than other Primarchs. He was a great Artisan, and his Sons surely would have copied their father to a degree, but not to the extent that Guilliman encouraged his own.
After reading angel exterminatus and how it portrayed peturabo,then going back to the other books it seems interesting how badly all of peturabos brothers judged him, he would have been a greater empire builder even than guiliman if given the chance, shame what happened to him
Check Sevatar's quote under my sig...ADB supports them as executioners...not because they are astartes +1 , rather their unique style of fighting/hunting...
"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/13 19:10:26
The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."
-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
Yeah the Perturabo aspect of the heresy still nags at me, how was this being (The Emperor) who was so post human that he made primarchs look mundane not appreciate the flaws in his creations
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Tiarna Fuilteach wrote: Yeah the Perturabo aspect of the heresy still nags at me, how was this being (The Emperor) who was so post human that he made primarchs look mundane not appreciate the flaws in his creations
Because The Emperor in all of his glory still seems emotionally disattached. Which i guess happens when you live for I-don't-know-how-many-thousands of years and see the ones you love crumble away and die. I believe he over the years went a 'little' crazy and simply just forgot how feelings worked in the end.
Just my two cents on the Emperor.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ALSO
If we follow the notion that all Legions were created with something in mind, what if the World Eaters were originally created to be ambasadors? What if the only reason they turned into violen blood-thirsty bezerkers were because of the Butcher's Nail?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/14 12:12:03
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