Help How do i kill Karl Franz?

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**Interrogator-Chaplin**

Seriously this guy really annoys me,

Every time i go up against my mates empire cav army he takes Karl Franz on horseback and kills half my army with him. and because he runs him in either thos +1 knight or his regular knights i just can't beat him.

should i just feed him chaff all game ?

Or try to tarpit him again ? every time i do this he eats through my 40 odd skellies And distroies everything...

Anyone got any tips for sqishing this guy ?

**Grey Templar**

Redirect him away with chaff. Most uber combat characters are best kept at arms length. Unless you have an equally nasty melee character that can kill him before he swings don't even thing about it.

If he survives, he just needs to hit you. Then its autowounds ignore armor with D6 wounds each.

Don't tangle with Skullsplitter, it'll split your fething skull!

You only need to keep hm busy for 2-3 turns. At which point the game is almost over and he will have trouble getting at anything else. use those turns to kill the rest of his army.

**Mike der Ritter**

Ahahaha...

Sorry for the outburst, no offense intended but seriously?!? That's just a squishy human officer! Okay, he's got a decent save but even your run of the mill GotE can and will have better armour because he's able to carry a shield. Perhaps just attack him, have you tried that?

Secondly, a guy with four attacks cannot kill an army, magic weapon or not. That's simply impossible. I mean KF has worse stats than any nameless Chaos hero!

If you're worried about a couple of human knights killing your Skellies - something else I can hardly believe because it takes ages even with crumble in which you could flank them...like half the game or so...or raise some more - put him up against Grave Guard or Bloodknights. Use your own character to simply splat that unit in one go.

I'm sure TK can get KB somewhere, too. Even if you don't kill Franzl, killing a couple of knights combined with static combat res will almost always be enough.

**jonolikespie**

Vampire Lord. Quickblood, Beguile, Sword of +3S, Red Fury, other trickster's shard.

Hitting first on 3s with rerolls, wounding on 2s, strength 8 turns a +1 save to a 6+, trickster's shard forces a reroll on ward saves. Then for every failed save you get another attack.

This build leaves your lord vulnerable once he takes hits but the idea is that there are very few things in the game that will be left standing to try and hit him after he strikes first.

**Tiarna Fuilteach**

Just for the original poster, your sig states you've 2million points of guard rather than 2k

**jonolikespie**

And?

Do you not collect a million or two points worth of an army before moving on to the next?

**Mike der Ritter**

It's probably shorthand for "a lot". Couple hundred Ogryns, a few dozen superheavies...man, it does add up.

jonolikespie wrote:

This build leaves your lord vulnerable once he takes hits but the idea is that there are very few things in the game that will be left standing to try and hit him after he strikes first.

Except for RnF...

**jonolikespie**

Toss the dragonhelm is as well as a mundane shield, heavy armour and seed of rebirth. Then put him on the corner of a nice wide unit.

Worst case scenario rank and file will get 12 attacks on him (3x2 in the front rank then 3 from the 2nd and 3 from the 3rd). 1 of those is beguiled and is rerolling to hit. Anything WS3 is hitting on 5s, everything else 4s. Even if armed with great weapons humans and elves need 4s to wound, chaos warriors and that need 3.
12 needing 4s, 6 hit, 6 needing 4s, 3 wounds. All you need to do is pass 1 of your 5+/6++s to survive then you can throw everything at healing up next turn.
Best case scenario though your vamp only clips the combat, beguiles the one guy in base to base and laughs as he and his 1 supporting attack fail to do anything

I'll admit it is more squishy than I would like but it is still a vampire lord..

**Mike der Ritter**

jonolikespie wrote:
Toss the dragonhelm is as well as a mundane shield, heavy armour and seed of rebirth. Then put him on the corner of a nice wide unit.

I thought you wanted to kill KF in the centre of his horse guards?

Worst case scenario in internet warhammer is said horse guards are Birona'ed hating ICK with a Hurri in the back but thank-you for pointing out that attacks can come from a second and third rank.... ;-) of which Knights rarely have any. They're also on a wider base, not WS 3, usually re-roll stuff and ICK are S6 on the charge, so few of those numbers matter.

If Empire RnF cannot kill him, why say he's squishy? In what respect?

**Tangent**

Mike der Ritter wrote:
I thought you wanted to kill KF in the centre of his horse guards?

You can always issue a challenge with the Vamp Lord, and/or murder the other knights (and you'll win on combat rez in either of these scenarios, probably).

**Krellnus**

You play vampires, our knights are the best in the game and your beatstick characters are the best in the game.

**thedarkavenger**

Beating Empire knights with VC is easy, you just need Grave Guard and killy Vampires. The only trick is making sure that YOU get the charge so he doesn't have the added strength from lances.

Alternatively, you could run the black knight bus and hit him in the flank. That way forces KF to expose himself to KB lances and A Combat Vampire/lord.

**Mike der Ritter**

thedarkavenger wrote:
Beating Empire knights with VC is easy, you just need Grave Guard and killy Vampires. The only trick is making sure that YOU get the charge so he doesn't have the added strength from lances.

Beating them with VC is probably quite easy, yes. Beating them with GG is too - if you can get there since the Knights have superior mobility. An added problem - although I'm not entirely sure how grave or marginal it is - could be that you might not want your GG + General on a flank.

Getting the charge is relatively unimportant unless the VC unit has already suffered heavily. I don't think that two additional losses will dramatically effect that combat.

With that in mind, even putting them in the centre of your line drastically reduces KF's options and as I said above, KF shouldn't really be that scary.

**Grey Templar**

Maybe the issue is reading multiple wounds wrong.

Multiple Wounds can't kill multiple models. It does a single wound, which is given to a model and is then multiplied into D6 wounds. it can only ever kill one model.

A mistake like that would make Karl pretty nasty.

**timetowaste85**

Grey Templar wrote:
Maybe the issue is reading multiple wounds wrong.

Multiple Wounds can't kill multiple models. It does a single wound, which is given to a model and is then multiplied into D6 wounds. it can only ever kill one model.

A mistake like that would make Karl pretty nasty.

This was pretty much my thought too. Karl likely hits 3 skellies in a single shot. Those 3 hits auto wound, and then 3 skellies each take D6 wounds. As each only has one, it doesn't matter what the D6 roll is, each skellie takes lethal damage. Killing 3 out of 40, plus whatever the knights do SHOULD cause combat res to nuke about half the skellie horde (AT BEST!). This should, if your army is positioned correctly, allow your own units to hit the knights from the side. A big Empire knight unit's strength is charging. After they charge, if they're stuck in combat, they're near useless. If you hit them w/ a killing blow unit, just grind them down: they won't beat you.

**Jayo'r**

Take lore of metal?