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Hi, I keep playing this guy who barely places his models on the edge of cover (say... a crater), and say he gets the cover say for it.

I'm trying to find rules for having the whole model on cover, or at least half of it, but I can't find it anywhere.

Is he right/wrong to do so?

I believe you have to be "in" area terrain to get cover from it.

Also, is he rolling difficult terrain in the movement phase when ends up "touching" it? If not then he shouldn't get cover from it either.

Having your base even slightly in area terrain grants a cover save and also requires a difficult terrain test. There are no rules saying how much you have to have in cover, and the example on page 19 shows explicitly that a model does not have to be entirely in terrain.

What Noob said. Especially the bit about taking the test in the movement phase. No test, no cover. You shouldn't be able to use your normal movement, touch area terrain, and get the cover save. There are players who will try!

I'll often place models in base contact with area terrain to get a cover save simply because it's hard to place a model standing in the terrain. I will usually inform my opponent that I intend on taking the cover save, and if he insists I have to be in the terrain, then I will go through the hassle of placing the model in the terrain. This is always done informing my opponent and after a test to enter/leave the terrain. In short, Im taking responsibility during my turn instead of waiting till my opponents turn to bring it up.

rigeld2 wrote:
Having your base even slightly in area terrain grants a cover save and also requires a difficult terrain test. There are no rules saying how much you have to have in cover, and the example on page 19 shows explicitly that a model does not have to be entirely in terrain.

Sorry I assumed the OP meant the his opponent is placing his models in BTB not actually having any part of the base "in" the terrain.

Blakckgaze, is he actually putting anypart of the models base on top of the crater?

Even if it is just the very edge of his base is on the edge of the crater then, yes he would get cover.
But he would have to roll DT before moving into and out of the crater.

 Blackgaze wrote:
Hi, I keep playing this guy who barely places his models on the edge of cover (say... a crater), and say he gets the cover say for it.

I'm trying to find rules for having the whole model on cover, or at least half of it, but I can't find it anywhere.

Is he right/wrong to do so?

And that's why I play true line of sight.

... which has nothing to do with area terrain.

Or are you saying that you don't ever use area terrain? I'd hate to play on your boards then. Armies that need cover to survive would fail miserably.

Matney X wrote:

 Blackgaze wrote:
Hi, I keep playing this guy who barely places his models on the edge of cover (say... a crater), and say he gets the cover say for it.

I'm trying to find rules for having the whole model on cover, or at least half of it, but I can't find it anywhere.

Is he right/wrong to do so?

And that's why I play true line of sight.

Which is the rules, except if you have a non-vehicle model even 1/16" in area terrain they get a cover save.

This really comes more to deployment than actually taking difficult terrain tests.
Since he has a shooting army, his model's base JUST touch the very edge of the crater (like less than 10% of the base!)

it pisses me off, but I have no way to counter him.

Fire something at him that ignores cover! lol

Get a hell drake... that will straighten his A** out.

I do that all the time. It's the only way my TMCs get saves against the heavy weapons that are shot at them.

 Blackgaze wrote:
This really comes more to deployment than actually taking difficult terrain tests.
Since he has a shooting army, his model's base JUST touch the very edge of the crater (like less than 10% of the base!)

it pisses me off, but I have no way to counter him.

It's a completely legal way of getting a cover save.

If its pissing you off your taking the game too seriously.

Area terrain only require part of your base to be in it. Any portion, even .0000001% of your base will give you the save.

All other types of cover require 25% of the model to be obscured.

rigeld2 wrote:
I do that all the time. It's the only way my TMCs get saves against the heavy weapons that are shot at them.

Except that TMC are not infantry and do not benefit from area terrain unless they are visibly obscurred and would be granted cover by LOS rules. So no they don't get 5+ cover from being in a crater for example.

The rules don't say anything about infantry. Under the area terrain rules it says "MODELS in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured" (p91). Vehicles are an exception, which get no benefit from area terrain (p75).

grrr

rigeld2 wrote:
Having your base even slightly in area terrain grants a cover save and also requires a difficult terrain test. There are no rules saying how much you have to have in cover, and the example on page 19 shows explicitly that a model does not have to be entirely in terrain.

That picture on p. 19 is less than conclusive.

 Inquisitor Lord Cuthbert wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I do that all the time. It's the only way my TMCs get saves against the heavy weapons that are shot at them.

Except that TMC are not infantry and do not benefit from area terrain unless they are visibly obscurred and would be granted cover by LOS rules. So no they don't get 5+ cover from being in a crater for example.

Oh really?

Aren't there cases where if you are touching a wall you get cover saves? such as i believe with smart missile systems? i cant recall.

No, walls aren't area terrain. I think what you're thinking about is those certain weapons that mention terrain being between the firer and the receiver. Those are special case scenarios.

rigeld2 wrote:... which has nothing to do with area terrain.

Or are you saying that you don't ever use area terrain? I'd hate to play on your boards then. Armies that need cover to survive would fail miserably.

Happyjew wrote:

Matney X wrote:

 Blackgaze wrote:
Hi, I keep playing this guy who barely places his models on the edge of cover (say... a crater), and say he gets the cover say for it.

I'm trying to find rules for having the whole model on cover, or at least half of it, but I can't find it anywhere.

Is he right/wrong to do so?

And that's why I play true line of sight.

Which is the rules, except if you have a non-vehicle model even 1/16" in area terrain they get a cover save.

We haven't used area terrain in any games I've played, but I've played significantly less games than most people on here, and I've generally played with people with about as much experience as me so we could just be overlooking a rule.

Rereading the thread, my snarky remark didn't really do anything for the conversation. Sorry about that.

 Inquisitor Lord Cuthbert wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I do that all the time. It's the only way my TMCs get saves against the heavy weapons that are shot at them.

Except that TMC are not infantry and do not benefit from area terrain unless they are visibly obscurred and would be granted cover by LOS rules. So no they don't get 5+ cover from being in a crater for example.

That'd be a 5th edition rule you're trying to apply. Page 91 gives all models a cover save in area terrain and nothing refutes that. Vehicles have a rule denying it - cite the rule denying it for MCs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Having your base even slightly in area terrain grants a cover save and also requires a difficult terrain test. There are no rules saying how much you have to have in cover, and the example on page 19 shows explicitly that a model does not have to be entirely in terrain.

That picture on p. 19 is less than conclusive.

It's really not - you can't see any terrain past the edges of most of the top green models base, meaning that it is either a) perfectly
shaped exactly the same size as a base or b) the models base is not entirely in the terrain feature.

Given the ludicrous assumption that a is, b must be true.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Having your base even slightly in area terrain grants a cover save and also requires a difficult terrain test. There are no rules saying how much you have to have in cover, and the example on page 19 shows explicitly that a model does not have to be entirely in terrain.

That picture on p. 19 is less than conclusive.

It's really not - you can't see any terrain past the edges of most of the top green models base, meaning that it is either a) perfectly
shaped exactly the same size as a base or b) the models base is not entirely in the terrain feature.

Given the ludicrous assumption that a is, b must be true.

The green circle obscures view of the terrain underneath, so it is not a "ludicrous assumption" as you might think.

A the image can never be definitive because you cannot guarantee that the other models are wholly inside the terrain either. There could be circles underneath their bases that are hidden and clear terrain!

No, seriously, it's a ludicrous assumption especially given the fact that the terrain is narrowing prior to being covered by the models base.

rigeld2 wrote:
A the image can never be definitive because you cannot guarantee that the other models are wholly inside the terrain either. There could be circles underneath their bases that are hidden and clear terrain!

No, seriously, it's a ludicrous assumption especially given the fact that the terrain is narrowing prior to being covered by the models base.

You are assuming that the model is not in terrain but only partially in terrain.

This reminds me of the onto the table thread, where the onto meant totally on, and not partially on.

This Thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/315833.page

No, I'm assuming the model is in terrain, which is all that's required to gain a cover save.

There's a difference between "in" and "entirely in". This was covered in the recent Ymgarl thread.

rigeld2 wrote:
No, I'm assuming the model is in terrain, which is all that's required to gain a cover save.

There's a difference between "in" and "entirely in". This was covered in the recent Ymgarl thread.

and the rules say in, not partially in.

You're right - they do.
My base is in the terrain. 1/16" of it anyway.

I hope GW will address this in an FAQ. Basically monstrous creatures get a cover save if just a smidgeon of their base touchs terrain - even if an enemy unit has clear unobstructed LoS to the model... It's like the terrain is projecting an invisible forcefield. It's 100 percent legal but just doesn't seem right.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I hope GW will address this in an FAQ. Basically monstrous creatures get a cover save if just a smidgeon of their base touchs terrain - even if an enemy unit has clear unobstructed LoS to the model... It's like the terrain is projecting an invisible forcefield. It's 100 percent legal but just doesn't seem right.

And this is the Reason I call it "Not Quite True Line of Sight"

They did however remove my personal Bugbear, in that models that can't see over a wall to shoot can't, usually, be taken as casualties from my opponents shooting.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I hope GW will address this in an FAQ. Basically monstrous creatures get a cover save if just a smidgeon of their base touchs terrain - even if an enemy unit has clear unobstructed LoS to the model... It's like the terrain is projecting an invisible forcefield. It's 100 percent legal but just doesn't seem right.

So you are fine when a mc is 99% covered it still only gets a 5+ cover save?

There are many abstractions in the game. This is one of those that makes it play the game easier and i am sure was intended.