Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

White Dwarf #53 had templates and instructions for building a Warhound Titan.
A friend of mine spent three days building his Warhound using the GW guides and fielded it in our recent Apocalypse game.
Another player fielded a FW Warhound and was upset that the paper Titan was allowed.

This was not a GW tournament. It was not a store-run event. It was just a big game we all worked together to plan and play.

Who is right?
Is the paper Titan considered a GW model since they were the ones who released the instructions in the first place?

It's not so much a matter of right and wrong as it is expectations.

I can understand how the guy that shelled out $400 for the Forge World titan, assembled it, and I assume painted it would be upset that someone made one out of paper or card stock and was allowed to play with it.

Also, when White Dward #53 was printed, the Forge World Titan hadn't been created, yet. The only way to field one would be scratch build. Now that a model is out, the model should be used.

As this was a friendly game, I wouldn't have a problem with a well built, card stock titan.

Edit: Are you sure it was WD #53? I'm not seeing that article in the RPGnet summary. (nor #52 or 54).

 kronk wrote:

I can understand how the guy that shelled out $400 for the Forge World titan, assembled it, and I assume painted it would be upset that someone made one out of paper or card stock and was allowed to play with it.

This.

However if the other guy had made his titan out of $50 bills instead of cardstock - it would have been acceptable. Either that, or just give each opponent $10 or $20 during the game.

Also, when White Dward #53 was printed, the Forge World Titan hadn't been created, yet. The only way to field one would be scratch build. Now that a model is out, the model should be used.

But by extension, should people who modelled, for example, Lootas before they were released, have to buy and use the new kit ones, even if the unit they scratch built are GW kit (bashed) and well modelled?
Wheres the line drawn?

Kronk:
Not entirely sure. I am no expert on WD. That's what I was told. If you find out for sure let me know.

No idea, Ratius.

Again, I don't see this as a black and white, right or wrong thing as much as not everyone has the same idea of what is OK and what isn't, going in.

Better communication from the organizer about scratch builds and the like would have helped here, I think.

Agreed on that Kronk.

Interesting to see if someone brought a paper Titan to a sanctioned GW tourney. How would it go down?

Does the definition of model only include plastic, resin or metal?
Im unsure.

 Ratius wrote:

Also, when White Dward #53 was printed, the Forge World Titan hadn't been created, yet. The only way to field one would be scratch build. Now that a model is out, the model should be used.

But by extension, should people who modelled, for example, Lootas before they were released, have to buy and use the new kit ones, even if the unit they scratch built are GW kit (bashed) and well modelled?
Wheres the line drawn?

The guy with a FW Titan was fine with it during set up but in the game the paper Titan destroyed the FW Titan and he had a conniption. He pulled his models off the table and left in turn 3. We laugh and say that the Paper Titan made a 10,000 point shot. Needless to say, we continued playing but lost horrendously.

What 'tourneys' allow titans? especially GW ones?

It all boils down to 'rule of cool'. If it is spraypainted toletpaper rolls stapeled to a tissue box with a tennis ball for a head, then yes, people may complain. If it is a complex and detailed cardstock, which looks like the model it is representing then people probably won't.

Pics are needed.

If the players didn't agree to no scratch builds or no card stock or no proxies for Super Heavies going in, then it's up to the organizer to decide, and he should lean towards permitting rather than forbidding, in most cases. The guy did go through the trouble of building a titan from card stock, which is no simple task. Obviously, this titan was a large part of his army's points. To deny him at the last minute might not only prevent him from playing at the event, but could cause uneven sides and prevent the game from happening. As a "friendly, non-store event", that would suck.

However, his investment in time and money was not on par with the guy with the actual model.

Now that this has happened, the players need to set ground rules for future events to avoid people's feelings getting hurt and time being wasted.

 StormK wrote:

The guy with a FW Titan was fine with it during set up but in the game the paper Titan destroyed the FW Titan and he had a conniption. He pulled his models off the table and left in turn 3. We laugh and say that the Paper Titan made a 10,000 point shot. Needless to say, we continued playing but lost horrendously.

Aha, now we're getting the whole story!

Sounds like a poor sport.

Pics of both titans are in my gallery...

This is the only titan I see in your gallery, and I'm pretty sure it's the real deal...

Also, I wouldn't allow another vehicle to drive between it's legs. As a walker, it's supposed to be on a base, even if one isn't provided.

The pictures don't show enough of the Titan. I'm fairly sure that's a real one.

Do you have any better pictures?

 kronk wrote:
This is the only titan I see in your gallery, and I'm pretty sure it's the real deal...

Also, I wouldn't allow another vehicle to drive between it's legs. As a walker, it's supposed to be on a base, even if one isn't provided.

This is the Titan that was killed by the paper Titan.

Here's the Paper Titan.

I've never heard of GW releasing titan templates and wD54 predates the release of 40k.

That being said every apoc game I've been to has ha scratchbuilds of varying quality, just like every tournament has paintjobs of varying quality. Unless the tournament rules call for only GW/FW the paper titan should be allowed.

We all know that sooner or later the best painted model will die to a 12 year old with a shoe box with 'tank written on it, that's life.

That titan looks pretty cool, actually. Too bad it wasn't fully painted.

That papertitan is a good start. It isn't done and has no place on a tabletop where 'finished models' are required for the event.

Considering the event had smatterings of unpainted models, then it appears as if this event had no standards.

Did the event have standards which were forcibly relaxed by attendees 'showing up' with unpainted models, or was it no standards from the start?

If you want to advertise, 'no standards', that's cool so people can be warned not to attend. If you are going to advertise standards then let people who show up intending to have rules not apply to them participate degrading everyone else's experience, then that is not cool.

I don't care what the standard is, as long as you keep it consistent.

Yeah, as long as an event has no standards, you can't really drop the hate too hard on someone for coming with such a thing ... it literally wasn't substandard for the event.

That said, Nick hits effectively on the fact that you really need to advertise.

One of the biggest problems with Apocalyspe sized events lies in not providing attendees with effective information / not setting expectations correctly. The Paper Titan guy didn't do anything wrong, and the actual titan owner probably should have eased up on him given the fact that he probably wasn't also raging about all the unpainted models at their titans' feet. He was understandably upset initially, however, for simple fact that he probably had no idea what to expect, set his own image in his head of how awesome it would be, and felt let down at what he saw.

Unfortunately, more often than not, the paper titan can turn out looking terrible.

I personally could understand it, but outside of friendly play, I would get very irked.

This is the deal.
A friendly game with a specific scenario and scenario specific rules was emailed to all of the registered players. Notice was given 4 weeks before the event. As people had to cancel, points value shifted and some players had to switch sides. Nine people were scheduled to play on the morning of the event. The only rules expectations were that players had to have a reasonable amount of their army painted, and that forces that could not ally would be subject to our version of the "suspicion" rule.

The player with the $545.00 Titan (heretofore referred to as 545) showed up during set up and threw a fit until he was allowed to play. He also argued that he should be allowed to bring 10,000 points (in all the emails we had established a 5,000 point limit per person just so the game wouldn't bog down) eventually we relented just to get things going. We shifted points and gave the attackers another 10,000 to work with and made last minute adjustments to accommodate 545.

Before play he admired the work done on Paper Titan. He also walked around and complimented players on their army, conversions, paint schemes, etc.

My friend and I went over the rules and conditions of victory as well as announcing the updated story for the scenario before the start of the game.
Because 545 had 10,000 points we allowed him to bear the burden of defending the main objective on the main battle board. Other defenders were shunted off the main board to battle over secondary objectives on three separate tables.

In turn three Paper Titan destroys 545's Titan and 545 started getting upset. Within 15 minutes he was screaming about how a paper model should not be allowed in a tournament and how he spent so much money his Titan shouldn't be destroyed. He claimed that we didn't know how to run a tournament and that GW would never allow a paper Titan.

545 worked himself up into a frenzy and packed up all of his models and left. We now had a 10,000 point hole on the main board. Story-wise we said that the Titan had a holographic generator that was projecting an image of the "Blood Knights" army.

Play resumed and everyone else had a great time even though the defenders lost in a big way we considered the event to be a big success.
My post-event question is does a GW released paper Titan count as a GW model? Would scratch built models be disallowed in a GW tournament? A recent Feast of Blades tournament disqualified a kid because the bulk of his army was made from cereal box cardboard and was poorly done.
I think a few "greeblies" and GW vehicle bits would make it difficult to tell the Paper Titan from a FW Titan...

Sounds bad...

I see more of a problem with 545...

 StormK wrote:
My post-event question is does a GW released paper Titan count as a GW model?

IMO, no. It's obviously lacking compared to the real model, and it's questionable whether it really was a GW release or just a third-party template and "it's GW" as an excuse to be allowed to use it. If I was running the event I wouldn't allow it.

Would scratch built models be disallowed in a GW tournament?

Yes. Right or wrong GW wants you to buy their models to play in their events, so anything that isn't a GW kit won't be allowed.

In a sensibly run event (IOW, not run by GW) it depends. A high-quality scratchbuild will probably be allowed, if it's done for the sake of having a unique and awesome model rather than being lazy and/or cheap. A low-quality scratchbuild like the paper titan wouldn't be allowed.

I think a few "greeblies" and GW vehicle bits would make it difficult to tell the Paper Titan from a FW Titan...

Only if you don't look at it very hard. The paper titan isn't even close to the real model in detail and quality, and just gluing on some random bits isn't going to change that. An acceptable scratchbuild is going to take a lot more work than that one, to the point that there's no real savings (assuming the "time is money" rule) over just buying the FW one.

Since GW no longer support Tournaments/events the rule of "is it a GW model" should be irrelevent.
If GW wants us to use only their toys (even their rediculousy expensive FW toys) then they should pony up some prize support.

545 sounds like the problem child. Demanding special exemption to bring twice the points of anyone else without prior notification (including his non-based Titan), has no problem with the paper titan pre-game, then gets butt-hurt when his high-dollar model gets punked by it.
I wonder what he would have done had the opposing team decided to take their extra 5000 points in nothing but TH/SS titan breaking Terminator squads and deep-struck them all right onto the Titan, killing it then beating the rest of his army to pulp the next turn?

 Peregrine wrote:

 StormK wrote:
My post-event question is does a GW released paper Titan count as a GW model?

IMO, no. It's obviously lacking compared to the real model, and it's questionable whether it really was a GW release or just a third-party template and "it's GW" as an excuse to be allowed to use it. If I was running the event I wouldn't allow it.

Would scratch built models be disallowed in a GW tournament?

Yes. Right or wrong GW wants you to buy their models to play in their events, so anything that isn't a GW kit won't be allowed.

In a sensibly run event (IOW, not run by GW) it depends. A high-quality scratchbuild will probably be allowed, if it's done for the sake of having a unique and awesome model rather than being lazy and/or cheap. A low-quality scratchbuild like the paper titan wouldn't be allowed.

I think a few "greeblies" and GW vehicle bits would make it difficult to tell the Paper Titan from a FW Titan...

Only if you don't look at it very hard. The paper titan isn't even close to the real model in detail and quality, and just gluing on some random bits isn't going to change that. An acceptable scratchbuild is going to take a lot more work than that one, to the point that there's no real savings (assuming the "time is money" rule) over just buying the FW one.

You make a number of good points. My first instinct is to argue with you over the quality of the Paper Titan build but after thinking about it I realize that I'm may be coloring my perception based on my friendship with the player. It's a great scratch build though....
How would I run a "sanctioned" event? Would rules trump friendship in the interest of fairness?

I would enforce wysiwyg for sure, but if it looks good....?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

dkellyj wrote:
Since GW no longer support Tournaments/events the rule of "is it a GW model" should be irrelevent.
If GW wants us to use only their toys (even their rediculousy expensive FW toys) then they should pony up some prize support.

545 sounds like the problem child. Demanding special exemption to bring twice the points of anyone else without prior notification (including his non-based Titan), has no problem with the paper titan pre-game, then gets butt-hurt when his high-dollar model gets punked by it.
I wonder what he would have done had the opposing team decided to take their extra 5000 points in nothing but TH/SS titan breaking Terminator squads and deep-struck them all right onto the Titan, killing it then beating the rest of his army to pulp the next turn?

*whew* that is something I'd pay to see....
Am I bad person?

545 seemed intent on causing problems once the day wasn't going his way. I have no issues with scratch built models. This is likely a one time problem as 545 won't be back. If he does come back, I wouldn't let him play in any event I'm running after such a display.

Sarge wrote:
545 seemed intent on causing problems once the day wasn't going his way. I have no issues with scratch built models. This is likely a one time problem as 545 won't be back. If he does come back, I wouldn't let him play in any event I'm running after such a display.

Was it that bad? as a judge Id talk to him first and see what his POV was before I made a choice. Personal issues could be at play making his judgement and tolerance level low, THIS is no excuse how ever. But may warrant a second and final chance.

 Atropus wrote:

Sarge wrote:
545 seemed intent on causing problems once the day wasn't going his way. I have no issues with scratch built models. This is likely a one time problem as 545 won't be back. If he does come back, I wouldn't let him play in any event I'm running after such a display.

Was it that bad? as a judge Id talk to him first and see what his POV was before I made a choice. Personal issues could be at play making his judgement and tolerance level low, THIS is no excuse how ever. But may warrant a second and final chance.

He has been a problem everywhere he goes. I thought helping him feel like a part of the group would improve his fits but he will not be given an eighth or ninth chance. From now on club events will be for members only...

Someone put effort into it. They just didn't put massive amounts of money into it.

I see no problems with the paper titan.

The guy with the real titan is obviously just a whinny spoiled baby. That's his problem. I wonder if he cried himself to sleep with his 'real' titan in his arms.

It sounds like the 'mistake' was bending/breaking the event's organization to include "545"

Mega battles are VERY HARD to organize and keep going. Much harder than tourneys IMHO because people know how to play 15 one-on-one matches at the same time.

Limiting superheavies and points is super important. I easily have 20K of painted orks not including superheavies and about 10 superheavies. Is it cool for me to get to play with all my toys... it is impossible to play with them.

What I will do is provide my models for others to play with, but that requires the event to have hard standards of how much per person and per side, and what kind of models you want and if there is a narrative organization to the event.

It sounds pretty bad with the 10k hole in the force. It also sounds like 545 doesn know what apocalypse is about... With people able to field 49 lascannons, stuff is going to blow up fast and furious.

Sucks your event got poo-pooed on. But I do think all painted for megabattles is reasonable as well as turning people not pre-registered away (or allowing them to play one of the pre-provided forces so if they leave, the forces stay on the table)