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Hey everyone I thought I'd just start a thread on ideas of how to combat them. From my experiene with playing generally besides the trouble of flyers) becuase who doesnt have trouble?) Heavy Support really does us in. SW with LF's mean ds and shoot the crap out of them or lose walking up the field. IG with heavy tank builds are an absoulte pain. Eldar and 2 units of 3 walkers mean you lose a squad of gk's ss per turn and I'm talking the full 10. 2 squads of 3 oblits is just like "how the do you get over to the otherside to take em out without being raped by the close combat units trying to get to you". I get we can have a chance to take them out if we get close to them but, if you kill the squad and lose half your army in the process that's not much of an even trade to me... So I just wanted to hear what some of you all have found to work when trying to take on such situations and some loadouts, even allies if that's what you turn to

Take 3 dreadknights with incinerators and teleporters, first turn alpha strike, works well against people who sit back and shoot.

You have Dreadknights that can shunt, as mentioned.

Deep striking, as you mention, works really well.

You also always have all those options in your codex that require going off the netlist, such as terminators and LRCs.

I would be really interested in reading a battle report where Long Fangs or War Walkers were singularly the cause of someone playing GK to lose the game.

I have lost to long fang spam many times, 1000 points, he takes 3 full squads of missile launchers, each with a rune priest with divination.

First turn he pops my 3 rhinos and a dread, as I am left to foot slog up, his ap3 missiles with re-roll so hi just make a mockery of my power armour. Since then I play draigowing against him and laugh as the rockets bounce of my 2+ save

You don't deepstrike everything on top of him?

I was playing a mech list, so no, but even deepstriking on top, 15 missiles with re-rolls will hurt, also you are then in rapid fire of the grey hunters with plasma etc. As I said it was 1k points, gk cant take to many bodies at that level, it was always going to be uphill no matter what I did

I very much agree with both of you (tuiman and daedulus) that shunting dreads are a viable option, it's most certainly not a fix at say 1500 points. I mean unless your opponents aremy is practically entirely in reserves ap fire is going to bring them down.
I also agree with that except for a few cases(likeyour tuiman I feel your pain it's happened to me and why I began this thread) normally those units alone don't cause you to lose but the the tactis that come along in unison of their army with them. So for example.

My opponent sets down 2 sets of 3 oblits in the back of his horde of cultist/ pm/ deathstar lord on rides/ abaddon typhus etc... I shunt over to their side of he field in hopes of tieing up the oblits in combat. On his turn them beign thte obvious threat, he shoots 6 lasses into a dreads face which will hit because they're twin -linked and on average ill fail 3 to 4. that's one now he uses his death star to tarpit the crap out of the other one and now your dow 2 knights roughly 450 points and still have not come to counter the problem of the obliterators. These are situations im talking about.

I ponder on these situations for hours trying to come up with a way to counter besides hide behind the protection of an aegis defense line still taking 6 plasma cannons to the face each turn.

I've played against eldar with 2 war walker units in a bubble with his death star giving them fortune behind terrain and I'm telling you now the person literally walked up and shot my army to death so bad there was nothing assault when his deathstar got there. To be honest he didn't have to move at all. Could've just stood there and rolled dice the entire game and it wouldn't have made a difference.


I can try and DS on their side and waste 2 units of gk to take down 360 points worth of models and lose 500 of (scoring units) in the process and in all this deepstriking I always risk the chance of bad scatter to which case I may be out of range or rolling off the mishap table. If I shunt knights over so they will be shot to death and murdered.

These are the scenarios I'm asking how to try and combat. I understand armies all have weaknesses and covering them as best as possible is how you win the game but, I'm just having trouble seeing a way of countering them.

What I learned I can counter.
LF's
If I've come to the conclusion of a few things that is LF' can be defeated by terminators/ paladins in a conjuctional ds with a couple of greyknights ss sugesting you can get them to all come in on the same turn and accurately. The shooting should pick off at least 3 and cause a morale check on the squad. Just make sure to that if you do anything you get rid of all the plasma cannon team even if you dont touch a whole missile launcher team. one surving plasma will mean death to your SS/ Terminator unit as they are in piled formation from DS

Wraith Wing
I've also come to the conclusion Wraithwing will kill just about any unit in our army except for terminators/paladins in assault to whch they will hold each other up for quite some time. at which point if you have terminators just make those 5+ invuls, paladins should be fine and win the combat though. unless there are 2 in which case well.... your so my tip to you guys that you should know is shoot them before they get there with everything and worry about the flying broken cd disc later In addition you should try and throw a Dk at them and hold up the squad with the destroyer lord as opposed to the one without the destroyer lord. You want to challenge the destroyer lord and risk the mindshackles. its a 50/50 but if you win the d lord dies if you lose well then your guy does, if he denies the challenge just make your saves and that's one lessturn they'll be ripping your army to peices---> it truly is the best you can do. Shooting at him; he will look out sir all the rending shots and save all those that arent with his 2+ / he has T6 so you'll need 5 to 6s to wound with bolts and 3+ to wound with psycannon so your shots are being wasted on that sqaud as their is less chance you'll put up a high enough wound tally to cause any serious damage to the squad. shooting at a squad of wratihs without a D lord is like shooting at a normal unit of marines with 3+ saves and generally if you can just take down half( although I'd just stay on the safer side and wipe it) the squad their affectiveness in the following combat willl certainly not seem as devastating as 12 hits with 4+ mean hell make about half the attacks on average and get about 5 or so wounds with one maybe 2 rends as opposed to." just remove your guys off the tale"

That's what I got anyone got anything for IG tanks, warwalers, and oblits? I got nothin

Sounds like some of these units are good targets for psyriflemen.

Only problem with psyrifleman is that they are affective if they go first but not second. 6 oblits will take out a psyrifleman easy Oblits, laugh at you as they cant be insta gibbed for failing a 1 and they still have a 2+ save. lets not even get into sw. against wraithwing they'll spark off the d lords armor. against warwalkers hmmm. not too bad but very unlikely to deal with them as they'll get some cover saves with re-rolls and you till need to roll to glance and pen. against guard I guess it does depend on how mnay lascannons they bring to the table but seeing that most people take at least one vendetta I wouldnt count him being around to long. At the end of the day besides being able to semi- affectively combat the war walkers they probably arent going win out the against the opposing units. I like psyrifelman they are still good for popping light vehicles and snagging first blood in addition to tieing up some units but, against the opposing situations I don't see them fairing to well in my honest opinion, maybe some people had some luck though in which I'd encourage them to tell their story

It's not just straight up fire power either in many cases. As GK we're an elite army so you need to:

#1 control the board - have as little as possible exposed to the enemy while trying to get your limited number of guys to focus on just one area to apply the most fire power you can.

So say he has 6 oblits. all 6 in the corner? then dump a buttload of psycannons on them from the get go or charge them by turn 2 with something fast i.e. have purifiers run in with their sacrifical rhino, interceptros get behind them, strike squads run in on foot. Oversaturate them with bodies in that one corner to burn them out.

You'll take losses, but they would lose like 500 points of heavy shooting.

He park 6 oblits in the middle? Castle one side and get lots of cover and bring down a flank.

To use this most effectively, you really want to learn to read the map well and it's almost always better to go 2nd to deploy correctly. Having coteaz in the list makes it somewhat easier (30.56%) to steal the initiative if you want first turn badly enough for some reason.

Vs the d-lord wraith star, psyflemen are still pretty good actually but you need to be shooting down the wraiths for the most part and that again requires positioning. They only have a 3++ which is the same as power armor vs autocannons but failing a save means they instant death vs str 8. You actually need to screen out the lord and save him for other madness like lascannons/plasma cannons/cheap plasma acolytes to ablate off some wounds before they get charged and die. There's no ultimate counter vs this kind of unit and will require alot of combined power comming in diffrent ranges. The D. lord cannot be the closest unit to every direction unless you have all the wraiths in like a straight line behind him for some reason but then the flanks are going to be mostly open.

Vs the lord's 2+ armor, it'll be a race between weight of fire vs look out sir saves to determine who will win that fight. Incidentially, he's doing what I'm telling you to do to your enemy. That is, focus your super elite units and hopefully force the enemy to only be able to face that unit with as few units as possible which is why you are seemingly being out gunned/survived it seems.

The coutner to this is to give up board control if you go first cause he won the roll off. If you know you'll be facing this kind of thing, I'd castle up in a corner and when he comes for me, I'll have all my guns available to blow them up or tie them up with something or other (like a warding staff liby with brain mines and got lucky with my divination roll). You go for objectives afterwards and do your best to try and put them in your corner so you can get there in time or at least tie with warlord and linebreaker.

#2 Use the terrain to block LOS. This is a problem with some early game clubs as there simply isn't any terrain or they get stuff from other cheaper companies like pegasus which while makes good ruins has almost no LOS blocking pieces in the cheap 3 wall'ed versions. On a board without any LOS, heavy support are essentially unfairly tough and overkilly.

With proper terrain, you can frustrate alot of slow moving or immobile heavy support choices as there are no good firing lanes.

#3 air power - pretty much self evident for 6th. Most heavies don't have skyfire (save IG or a lucky skyfire nexus objective) and themselves are very vulnerable to a flying multi-melta. OR allied death ray/str 7 tesla shots.

Speaking of allies, 3 broadsides in a bastion is pretty damn amazing with an icarius lascannon on top manned by coteaz and a few space monkies with plasma cannon servitors. all the way in the back corner. I'm not sure why but people always try and get closer to that thing which is why I put plasma cannon servitors up on top now too. Guess they just hate getting sniped at lol.

 sudojoe wrote:
It's not just straight up fire power either in many cases. As GK we're an elite army so you need to:

#1 control the board - have as little as possible exposed to the enemy while trying to get your limited number of guys to focus on just one area to apply the most fire power you can.

So say he has 6 oblits. all 6 in the corner? then dump a buttload of psycannons on them from the get go or charge them by turn 2 with something fast i.e. have purifiers run in with their sacrifical rhino, interceptros get behind them, strike squads run in on foot. Oversaturate them with bodies in that one corner to burn them out.

how can purifiers assault turn two from a rhino? turn one, 12+flat out turn two rhino moves 6+ squad moves6 and you cannot assaultsince its not assault vehicle

how can my pyscannons kill oblits when they out range me from the corner?



to the OP

my main issue with my GK is their lack of long range fire power, psyrifle men, and ally IG help

how can purifiers assault turn two from a rhino? turn one, 12+flat out turn two rhino moves 6+ squad moves6 and you cannot assaultsince its not assault vehicle

how can my pyscannons kill oblits when they out range me from the corner?



to the OP

my main issue with my GK is their lack of long range fire power, psyrifle men, and ally IG help

You'd actually run them outside of the rhino and "run" with the rhino as a screening shield with flat out to provide LOS blocking. If they are truely super far back back in the far far corner. Then I'd just deploy everything to the other side and ignore them. They can only fire every other turn at 48'. With S&P, they can't afford to be that far in the back.

If say at hammer and anvil deployment, then I'll essentially need more screening units or just depend on my shunting units to get there like interceptors and DK's.

You can fit 2 shunting DK's and a psyfle dread in at 1500 with coteaz. It's not that hard actually.

So, I don't normally do 1500 point games. I normally do 1000 point Adepticon Team Tournament style games, or 2000 point games.

If I was going to do 1500 points. Here is how I would do it.

OM Inquisitor in Terminator Armor
- Psycannon
- Psyker (you give him prescience)

OM Inquisitor in Terminator Armor
- Psycannon
- Psyker (you give him prescience)

Vindicare Assassin

Inquisitorial Henchmen
- 6 psykers (S8, AP1 large blast)
- Chimera
- Searchlight

10 GK Strikes
- 2 Psycannons
- Psybolt Ammo
- Razorback
- Searchlight

10 GK Strikes
- 2 Psycannons
- Psybolt Ammo

Psifledread
- Searchlight

Psifledread
- Searchlight

Psifledread
- Searchlight

Aegis Defense Line
- Icarus Lascannon


So, obviously you want to adapt to your enemy, but the way I see this playing is that you deepstrike your strikes and your inquisitors unless there is no reason to. Long range fire your dreadnoughts. Your Vindicare sits on the lascannon and HQ snipes Finally, the psykers sit in the chimera and fire out onto anything 2+ or vehicles. S8 AP1 does a good job of dealling with vehicles or terminator armor alike nowadays, and it's a 116 point squad, so who cares if you lose it.

Finally, all vehicles have searchlights, so you can cope with Necron craziness.

This will help me focus on what I want to build my army into, thanks for all the information! Looks like some dreads will be my next few models.

I made a 1k list with coteaz and 3 dreadknights all with teleporter and incinerator, was very fun to play and very hard to beat haha

I regularly play against a Grey Knights opponent who takes a Vindicare and a techmarine, for a 2+ cover save in ruins. He's absolute death to tanks, having the single most effective anti-tank gun in the entire game (barring apocalypse Destroyer weapons).

Hmm been thinkng and I believe sudjoe is probably right. taking an interceptor sqaud of 10 and shunting them over to and then assault the oblits would probably be the best option. the load out would be
10 interceptors with 2 psycannons a warding stave. This loadout will enable you to jump an obliterator squad and win out the combat and not worry about taking wounds as you have a 2+invul save. On the charge you get like 20 shhots from your stormbolters and psycannons and in the assulat you get 16 fw attacks of which hopefully he will fail at least 2 or 3 saves to which you can fw them. In addton if not playing against oblits you can jump units of LFs with a combat squad of these guys by shunting behind some terrain and then jumping and assaulting them the next turn. Against Ig combat squading the guys and jumping behind leman russes for back armor hits will probably blow up the behicle through glances or maybe an explosion result at which if that is the case psybolts would probably be good to put on these guys. finally against walkers the same thing like LF's jump behind cover and totally obscure and then jump out and shoot then assault them the next turn. Well I think I just gave a clear lesson on how to use interceptors Can't believe I didn't think of it before. I used them before but scrappd them because of their points and I was using them the wrong way. Before I had a GM and gave them scoring for last turn shunts but they never suceeded bcause they died before hand. Now I realize that is their job actually. They are a sabotage unit just like the old 3 man drop terminator melta scuicide units, the only differene with these guys are that they aree more accurate on their jjumps and can hide behind cover until next turn when you cooridnate a strike with your entire army.

What about this:

Coteaz

10 Strikers w/ 2 psycannons & psyammo
10 Strikers w/ 2 psycannons & psyammo

7 Interceptors w/ psycannon & psyammo

1 Dreadknight w/ Teleporter & Heavy Incinerator
1 Dreadknight w/ Teleporter & Heavy Incinerator
1 Dreadnought w/ 2 Twin Autocannons & psyammo

1 Aegis Defense Line w/ Quadgunn

that would be 1500 pts, and will match most lists in shooting power, only i dont see him ever deal with your shooting and the 2 knights...

I like it I believe you should get a ward stave on those interceptors and make them a 10 man squad so you can get one group of 5 with a ward stave tieing up a death star/oblits and one group with psycannons popping vehicles otherwise its fine. Yo'll have problems against with capping objective games and relic. Your battleplan wil have to be to massacre your opponents units with a cooridinated strike between your knights and deepstriking grey knights and keep them alive. It'll be alot for your opponent to take on at once but massed shooting/ also you have no anti flyer really and coteaz without a squad isn't making good use of him. I really don't like the lone dread either probably try and get some more guys in and find a sqaud for coteaz

you play it like this:

Coteaz and 10 strikers man the quadgun after the defense line, the other unit combatsquads and goes into reserves, the dread is there for psychic protection and tankkilling/longrange support.

On first turn the Interceptors and knights will jump and attack one flank, forcing him to reorganize his army. you can even make sure that the interceptors encircle the knights, so he does not get to charge them and the turn after that will destroy another unit after flaming and then charging them to smithereens, there is nothing save uberchars that keep 2dk in check and even then one wound is a dead char, S10 forceweapons are nutts...
Turn 2 or 3 the other strikers will come in either on objectives or take the relic if needed.

Flyer defense is as good as you can have, you can glance 11 armour with every dude in your armour, pscannons are 4 S7 rending shots a piece, snap in heavy mode..., the dread and quadgun, not to mind that if your flyer comes withing 12 of coteaz when it arrives on table it will take full shooting of the unit with presience and then take another quadgunn hit end of that phase... believe me never had issues with flyers, save those damn Helldrakes, but that is for everyone these days.

I really am not understanding how enemy heavy support is somehow more effective against GKs that other meq lists.

@Martel

To an extent you are correct that other meq have trouble with heavy support but we do so much more than them because we lack things like devastator squads with missiles, predator tanks with lascannons, speeders with mulit-meltas, drop pods with units of 5 man terminator squads all weilding combi- meltas, scouts with melta guns for even cheaper. Unfortunatelty we can't drop a 5 man terminator squad and deal with LR's, Predators, and oblits with the same degree of efficieny, as 1 psycannon is not gonna get the job done. So the real question is what tactical coordination can we use to evde, tie up, or take out these units without sacrficing whole units needed to complement the tactical presicion of our forces for other efforts on the field because Grey Knight Units need to fullfill several task not just one. (If my response came off belligerent in any way don't take it that way. I'm just aspired in our efforts to find a way to counter them)

Okay. I don't know the specifics of GK. All I know is put my BA out and 3 turns later they are all back in their cases when I face GK.

What ways do the GK have to deliver melta? Start there.

I think the main answer is to ally, although that is not to everyones taste:

Tau: 3 Broadsides
Guard: Vendetta or demolishers, plasma vets
Vanilla: Drop podding sternguard, predators, talons, bikes
Wolves: Rune Preist and long fangs, drop pod grey hunters
Blood angels: Lots of access to melta, cheap devastators,
Dark Angels: Black knights, deathwing, preds, vindis


So lots of cheap detachments we can make to add lots of extra firepower to our list, the best will be finding one were the troops and Hq will not be a tax to unlock the good stuff

My primary solutions have been stormravens and a vindicare.

To answer an earlier question, the stormraven is the fastest way to get melta on target (provided it comes in). You can have a TL MM and some additional good weapons options. You can usually get within 12" with a 36" move.
And don't forget: Power of the Fething Machine Spirit. Depending on what else you want it to do, pick your turret weapon. Light vehicles? AC w/psybolts. Long fangs? Feed them plasma. More tanks? TL LC. My meta doesn't have tons of tanks, so generally I go with MM+PC+hurricanes; melta a tank then unload everything else on a support-type squad.

The Vindicare Assassin is indeed the best anti-tank unit in the game, short of destroyer weapons. You have really, really good chance to hit and a 76.08% chance of penetrating AV14 (and he's AP1, so...). And with his range, he'll likely be able to shoot at least 1 tank on turn 1. It's important to get him some good cover for survivability, but he has a lot of potential.

As I said before, my meta doesn't have that many tanks outside of the guard players, so I'm usually not dealing with that many in a given 2k game but this usually works decently for me.

@Greyknight12

I believe the assassin is very much good choice indeed. The Stormraven is still iffy though because while it is very much a good flyer... quality is not better than quantity in this edition and someone can easily bring 2 flyers for less points and take down the stormraven... in addition the loadout you describe while very much so the best load out is quite expensive and as a kind of rule of thumb flyers should be run in 2s unless its purely for transport at which case our flyer is way to expensive to just take on the roll of a transport.

I agree on the transport point; for the grey knights quantity is already an issue and keeping bodies out of play until turn 3 at the earliest is generally not good, plus dropping a heavily armed and high-value AV12 into hover inside your opponents firebase is usually bad. The stormraven is best used in the pure gunship role.
As far as pricing goes, the weapons (except for hurricane bolters and typhoon missile launcher) are all free, so it doesn't cost anything extra to turn it into a tank hunter with multimelta and lascannon or assault cannon. Compare its cost to a dreadknight: the loadout described earlier (teleport, 2 incinerators) is actually more expensive than a stormraven with hurricanes and psybolt (neither of which you need to take if you're loaded up for heavy tank hunting). Granted, a dreadknight will survive longer in some situations, but in others an AV12 flyer will. It depends on how you want to do it (or you can do both, one's fast attack and the other's heavy support).

The other options from the codex are the landraider and dreadnought. A psyfleman dread will do horrible things to AV12 and below, and will still be effective against higher armor values as well as devastators and the like. The basic landraider has 2 TL LC, and you can give it a multi-melta if you think you'll be that close. POTMS gets you 2 TL LC shots a turn (at different targets if you want) while you move 6", and it's relatively survivable. All the landraiders can take a multi-melta, but for tank hunting I think the lascannons are your best bet unless you want to drive a tank into someones face.

 tuiman wrote:
Take 3 dreadknights with incinerators and teleporters, first turn alpha strike, works well against people who sit back and shoot.

I use this a lot but slightly differently. Hide 2 dreadknights behind cover (not always easy) first turn. Second turn deep strike Paladins and fly on Storm Raven then shunt up the 2 DK all to focus on a small part of his army. With that much threat right in his back yard you should have no problem downing some key units, getting first blood and dealing with HS.
If you start with Draigo on the table you can use Psychic Communion to have 3+ reserves turn 2 (cant remember if a GM has this power or not)

 Messy0 wrote:

 tuiman wrote:
Take 3 dreadknights with incinerators and teleporters, first turn alpha strike, works well against people who sit back and shoot.

I use this a lot but slightly differently. Hide 2 dreadknights behind cover (not always easy) first turn. Second turn deep strike Paladins and fly on Storm Raven then shunt up the 2 DK all to focus on a small part of his army. With that much threat right in his back yard you should have no problem downing some key units, getting first blood and dealing with HS.
If you start with Draigo on the table you can use Psychic Communion to have 3+ reserves turn 2 (cant remember if a GM has this power or not)

psy communion is available on GM's. You actually make it a 2+ since it's a 3+ baseline at turn 2 already.

 sudojoe wrote:

 Messy0 wrote:

 tuiman wrote:
Take 3 dreadknights with incinerators and teleporters, first turn alpha strike, works well against people who sit back and shoot.

I use this a lot but slightly differently. Hide 2 dreadknights behind cover (not always easy) first turn. Second turn deep strike Paladins and fly on Storm Raven then shunt up the 2 DK all to focus on a small part of his army. With that much threat right in his back yard you should have no problem downing some key units, getting first blood and dealing with HS.
If you start with Draigo on the table you can use Psychic Communion to have 3+ reserves turn 2 (cant remember if a GM has this power or not)

psy communion is available on GM's. You actually make it a 2+ since it's a 3+ baseline at turn 2 already.

Ah my mistake. For some reason i was remembering 4+ turn 2 and 3+ from turn 3.