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It's no secret that the 40K community is somewhat... vocal in voicing its displeasure concerning just about anything. Currently, the biggest 40K forums tend towards negativity. Take this site for example; it's practically impossible to have a 40K-related discussion (or any topic that even tangenitally touches on GW) without trolls, whiners, and the overall dregs of the community taking the conversation over and turning it into a GW bash-fest with almost no effort. The signal-to-noise ratio seems to be getting much worse with almost each passing day.

Different communities face this same issue, and have dealt with them in different ways. The official World of Warcraft forums, for example, are just as bad as most 40K forums. Blizzard has made some half-hearted attempts to clean things up, but nowadays the only people who spend and real amount of time there are trolls and whiners. Going to the WoW forums looking for a real discussion is an exercise in futility and sifting through pubescent complaining and obnoxiousness. Other communities suffer from this malaise as well, and have dealt with it in different ways. The Freebootaz, for example, charge a nominal fee for access to their forums which has proven to be an effective barrier against trolls. While this may not be an effective solution for every 40K forum, it still works well enough to improve the signal-to-noise ratio to be useful.

My question is this: how much responsibility does the community have as a whole in this? Should we rely on mods and forum owners to dictate the overall tone of discourse, or do community members bear some of the responsibility for the current state of affairs? If community members as a while bear some of the burden, what can be done to improve things?

If GW didn't hate it's customers we wouldn't have this problem.

That is with any forum, as a long time member of several gaming forums i will state that ANY AND ALL FORUMS degrade into a mass of negativity as people use the interwebs for a place to vent anger. If its meaningful or not..

Now, theres still meaningful convo on any forum, its finding it and placing those that constantly Kvetch on the ignore list..

Constant negativity could be seen as attempts to whirl up other members and Mods can ban, warn ect members that come on just to spit in eyes. Honest well thought out complaints are a different subject. The good and bad will be discussed. thats why were here.

 Kung Fu Hamster wrote:

My question is this: how much responsibility does the community have as a whole in this?

100%.

Hate is not the opposite of love, apathy is.

If you don't like GW anymore, stop playing their games and talking about them. Just let it go.

 Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:
If GW didn't hate it's customers we wouldn't have this problem.

This is an excellent example of what I'm talking about. How exactly can we have an honest discussion with posts like this? It's hyperbolic, puerile, and does nothing but help poison any actual discussion trying to take place.

Your problem is that you confuse legitimate criticism with being a "bash-fest" and expect that even when GW does stupid things the majority of talk about GW should be praise. GW-related forums will stop being a "bash-fest" when GW stops constantly doing things that deserve criticism.

I believe that people should only think happy thoughts and anyone with a negative opinion should be thrown in jail forever for putting out bad vibes.

There should be international censorship strike forces coordinated by a Central Censorship Bureau working to ensure corporate interests and maximum profitz.

Why oh why does no one ever think of the profits? Think of all of the money you're taking away from poor old beat up GW every time you criticize their completely selfish business practices, guys. Do it.

To be fair, GW does very little damage control. The one guy who made an appearance on the forums to recruit in the name of GW did a fairly decent job of taking the slings and arrows here. I applaud him for his honesty and the time he took to reach out to the community.

 Peregrine wrote:
Your problem is that you confuse legitimate criticism with being a "bash-fest" and expect that even when GW does stupid things the majority of talk about GW should be praise. GW-related forums will stop being a "bash-fest" when GW stops constantly doing things that deserve criticism.

I understand the difference between legitimate criticism and blatant hate, believe me. I'm don't want to silence any dissent against GW by any stretch of the imagination; what I want to do is try raising the overall level of discourse above its current level of "2 pages of GW hate for every 1 considerate (supporting or criticizing) post" that goes on.

 Kung Fu Hamster wrote:
Take this site for example; it's practically impossible to have a 40K-related discussion (or any topic that even tangenitally touches on GW) without trolls, whiners, and the overall dregs of the community taking the conversation over and turning it into a GW bash-fest with almost no effort.

That's a mighty large brush you have sitting in that tar pot...

The negativity towards games workshop is entirely a thing of their own creation. The community is under no obligation to try to clean up the mess that GW have made.

 Kung Fu Hamster wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Your problem is that you confuse legitimate criticism with being a "bash-fest" and expect that even when GW does stupid things the majority of talk about GW should be praise. GW-related forums will stop being a "bash-fest" when GW stops constantly doing things that deserve criticism.

I understand the difference between legitimate criticism and blatant hate, believe me. I'm don't want to silence any dissent against GW by any stretch of the imagination; what I want to do is try raising the overall level of discourse above its current level of "2 pages of GW hate for every 1 considerate (supporting or criticizing) post" that goes on.

Why? If GW is doing bad to good things at a ratio of 2:1 (I'd argue that the ratio is even worse, really) why shouldn't the ratio of comments reflect that? And why should discourse that is dominated by criticism automatically be bad?

 WarOne wrote:
To be fair, GW does very little damage control. The one guy who made an appearance on the forums to recruit in the name of GW did a fairly decent job of taking the slings and arrows here. I applaud him for his honesty and the time he took to reach out to the community.

Take note: This is considered valid criticism. GW does, in fact, have a minimal community presence, and it certainly doesn't do them much good.

 TedNugent wrote:
I believe that people should only think happy thoughts and anyone with a negative opinion should be thrown in jail forever for putting out bad vibes.

There should be international censorship strike forces coordinated by a Central Censorship Bureau working to ensure corporate interests and maximum profitz.

Why oh why does no one ever think of the profits? Think of all of the money you're taking away from poor old beat up GW every time you criticize their completely selfish business practices, guys. Do it.

This, on the other hand, is someone spewing tripe simply for the sake of spewing tripe. Anything not fitting into the "GW IS THE SUXXORZ!!!1!!1" mold should be mocked and driven away.

What exactly did you hope to accomplish? What point were you trying to get across?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kung Fu Hamster wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Your problem is that you confuse legitimate criticism with being a "bash-fest" and expect that even when GW does stupid things the majority of talk about GW should be praise. GW-related forums will stop being a "bash-fest" when GW stops constantly doing things that deserve criticism.

I understand the difference between legitimate criticism and blatant hate, believe me. I'm don't want to silence any dissent against GW by any stretch of the imagination; what I want to do is try raising the overall level of discourse above its current level of "2 pages of GW hate for every 1 considerate (supporting or criticizing) post" that goes on.

Why? If GW is doing bad to good things at a ratio of 2:1 (I'd argue that the ratio is even worse, really) why shouldn't the ratio of comments reflect that? And why should discourse that is dominated by criticism automatically be bad?

The ratio of comments isn't my point, it's the quality. Valid criticism is one thing, blatant trolling to look cool in front of the rest of the forum is something completely different.

Some of the most vocal "bashers" have not spent 200 a year on GW. They spend more time on Dakka than they ever have or will painting or playing.

 Kung Fu Hamster wrote:
My question is this: how much responsibility does the community have as a whole in this? Should we rely on mods and forum owners to dictate the overall tone of discourse, or do community members bear some of the responsibility for the current state of affairs? If community members as a while bear some of the burden, what can be done to improve things?

This I'll address.

The forums are not obligated to white knight the GW cause.

They do maintain some degree of control by rooting out those who harm the forums. That is all they need to do. They do not go out of their way to squelch those who complain about the GW mentality. The conversation shifts accordingly depending on what GW does. We do applaud GW when they release fantastic material and chide them for their PR missteps. As the largest miniatures company, they have to tackle the largest group of buyers and whiners. It's their obligation as number one to do so.

The forums do not need to regulate what GW should be addressing themselves. Just not the forum's problem.

Well said WarOne but it seems that the a great amount of time on this forums falls under the same topic. I can think of a lot of ways the "community" could interact with them for positive changes but does not.

 WarOne wrote:

 Kung Fu Hamster wrote:
My question is this: how much responsibility does the community have as a whole in this? Should we rely on mods and forum owners to dictate the overall tone of discourse, or do community members bear some of the responsibility for the current state of affairs? If community members as a while bear some of the burden, what can be done to improve things?

This I'll address.

The forums are not obligated to white knight the GW cause.

They do maintain some degree of control by rooting out those who harm the forums. That is all they need to do. They do not go out of their way to squelch those who complain about the GW mentality. The conversation shifts accordingly depending on what GW does. We do applaud GW when they release fantastic material and chide them for their PR missteps. As the largest miniatures company, they have to tackle the largest group of buyers and whiners. It's their obligation as number one to do so.

The forums do not need to regulate what GW should be addressing themselves. Just not the forum's problem.

My primary issue is with the quality of discussion, not with the overall content. Furthermore, I was also attempting to make a distinction between the forum owners & mods, and the forum users in general. Which were you referring to when speaking about "the forums"?

 WarOne wrote:
To be fair, GW does very little damage control. The one guy who made an appearance on the forums to recruit in the name of GW did a fairly decent job of taking the slings and arrows here. I applaud him for his honesty and the time he took to reach out to the community.

Once it was made understood that any company can come down to this site and recruit for employees from it then I was fine with it. Sooner or later I'm going to do something like that. Find employees.

Edited I wanted to know why the OP posted the way he posted and he answered sufficiently. I erased my previous comment.

Adam.

 Kung Fu Hamster wrote:
The ratio of comments isn't my point, it's the quality. Valid criticism is one thing, blatant trolling to look cool in front of the rest of the forum is something completely different.

You assume that the critics are just "blatantly" trolling rather than being legitimately unhappy with GW. This is a bad assumption given how many hate-worthy things GW has done lately.

He probably works for GW. That sounds like something they'd do.

 Kung Fu Hamster wrote:

 WarOne wrote:

 Kung Fu Hamster wrote:
My question is this: how much responsibility does the community have as a whole in this? Should we rely on mods and forum owners to dictate the overall tone of discourse, or do community members bear some of the responsibility for the current state of affairs? If community members as a while bear some of the burden, what can be done to improve things?

This I'll address.

The forums are not obligated to white knight the GW cause.

They do maintain some degree of control by rooting out those who harm the forums. That is all they need to do. They do not go out of their way to squelch those who complain about the GW mentality. The conversation shifts accordingly depending on what GW does. We do applaud GW when they release fantastic material and chide them for their PR missteps. As the largest miniatures company, they have to tackle the largest group of buyers and whiners. It's their obligation as number one to do so.

The forums do not need to regulate what GW should be addressing themselves. Just not the forum's problem.

My primary issue is with the quality of discussion, not with the overall content. Furthermore, I was also attempting to make a distinction between the forum owners & mods, and the forum users in general. Which were you referring to when speaking about "the forums"?

I should of been more precise, but it comes down to the moderators and administrators and ultimately owner are not responsible for what forum users say about GW and the users in general are not simply complainers. GW does receive positive endorsements when they do things right. I agree the volume of noise is loud because GW is the biggest company hands down. You just have to live with it.

 Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:
He probably works for GW. That sounds like something they'd do.

Now now now we need some new playthings to play with.... hmmmmm? Yea I'm a Slaanesh player. Better to die with a smile on my face than a bullet to the head

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

 WarOne wrote:
To be fair, GW does very little damage control. The one guy who made an appearance on the forums to recruit in the name of GW did a fairly decent job of taking the slings and arrows here. I applaud him for his honesty and the time he took to reach out to the community.

Once it was made understood that any company can come down to this site and recruit for employees from it then I was fine with it. Sooner or later I'm going to do something like that. Find employees.

@Kung fu Hamster I'm wondering why are you here at this site? You already starting up to stir up people all ready. Is this your purpose?

This forum has a large userbase and has a lot of great information available, particularly in the P&M forums. It could be a hell of a lot better, however, (along with a great many forums not excluisively dedicated to 40K or wargaming in general) if the users and/or mods did a better job of improving the quality of discourse and did something about people being negative simply for the sake of being negative.

Think of it as taking Wil Wheaton's "Don't Be A D***" mantra to a new audience.

I realize that this particular topic wouldn't be met with universal acclaim, but my intention was not to piss anyone off simply for my own amusement.

I hate how all these threads complaining about the quality of discourse keep popping up. If only the moderators did a better job at removing threads complaining about the quality of discourse we could have a much greater quality of discourse.

Also this is a part of Dakkas charm...if you will. You have valid points but it will always be drowned out by a few.

The great thing about being more or less free...

...you don't have to read anything. If a post (or poster) annoys you, you can scroll on past or even click the ignore button. If the operators of DakkaDakka feel that they should take action for whatever their reasons might be, that is their prerogative (also being free and all that) - but the notion that some people should be silenced because you feel they are not at your level of discourse is a bit ridiculous.

If anything though, you often have the "white knights" turn to personal attacks sooner than the "GW haters". Haters are more interested in venting against GW and their management. White Knights often have to fall back on insults when they run out of ways to defend GW.

 WarOne wrote:

 Kung Fu Hamster wrote:

 WarOne wrote:

 Kung Fu Hamster wrote:
My question is this: how much responsibility does the community have as a whole in this? Should we rely on mods and forum owners to dictate the overall tone of discourse, or do community members bear some of the responsibility for the current state of affairs? If community members as a while bear some of the burden, what can be done to improve things?

This I'll address.

The forums are not obligated to white knight the GW cause.

They do maintain some degree of control by rooting out those who harm the forums. That is all they need to do. They do not go out of their way to squelch those who complain about the GW mentality. The conversation shifts accordingly depending on what GW does. We do applaud GW when they release fantastic material and chide them for their PR missteps. As the largest miniatures company, they have to tackle the largest group of buyers and whiners. It's their obligation as number one to do so.

The forums do not need to regulate what GW should be addressing themselves. Just not the forum's problem.

My primary issue is with the quality of discussion, not with the overall content. Furthermore, I was also attempting to make a distinction between the forum owners & mods, and the forum users in general. Which were you referring to when speaking about "the forums"?

I should of been more precise, but it comes down to the moderators and administrators and ultimately owner are not responsible for what forum users say about GW and the users in general are not simply complainers. GW does receive positive endorsements when they do things right. I agree the volume of noise is loud because GW is the biggest company hands down. You just have to live with it.

Fair enough. I would counter (simply for the purpose of encouraging discussion and not to intentionally rile anyone up) with the idea that forum mods and owners bear some responsibility for the level of discourse. If a forum becomes a haven for trolling and negativity due to the mods having a "hands-off" approach to their duties, doesn't that reflect on the mods as well as the users?

I have no issue with GW.

I've been playing 40k since 2nd edition. The haters have always been around and GW has outlasted them all.

GW will still be around long after most "fly by night" gamers/haters game and than lose interests.

 Kung Fu Hamster wrote:
It could be a hell of a lot better, however, if the users and/or mods did a better job of improving the quality of discourse and did something about people being negative simply for the sake of being negative.

This can be done constructively by getting like minded people to join such a cause. Make a thread about it in the Nuts and Bolts section and see what others say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kung Fu Hamster wrote:
Fair enough. I would counter (simply for the purpose of encouraging discussion and not to intentionally rile anyone up) with the idea that forum mods and owners bear some responsibility for the level of discourse. If a forum becomes a haven for trolling and negativity due to the mods having a "hands-off" approach to their duties, doesn't that reflect on the mods as well as the users?

How far hands off are we talking about? Taking it to the extreme where moderators do no moderating, DakkaDakka would inevitably create enough vitriol to push away most of everyone.

But such as it is, there is a good blend right now. It's an open forum where people can exercise both their opinion and creativity. We have many GW haters and the apathetic, but there is alternatives to just simply complaining. Several companies get lots of good press and traffic by being the alternative to GW and thus syphon off some of that negativity into other projects which rival and can exceed what GW does.

Also, do not confuse the intent of DCMs as well. Many, many complaints of DCMs are simply caricatures of what stereotypical forum users express. We may not count at all when it comes to the complaining department because we really do not mean it.

Or do we?

 Kung Fu Hamster wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

 WarOne wrote:
To be fair, GW does very little damage control. The one guy who made an appearance on the forums to recruit in the name of GW did a fairly decent job of taking the slings and arrows here. I applaud him for his honesty and the time he took to reach out to the community.

Once it was made understood that any company can come down to this site and recruit for employees from it then I was fine with it. Sooner or later I'm going to do something like that. Find employees.

@Kung fu Hamster I'm wondering why are you here at this site? You already starting up to stir up people all ready. Is this your purpose?

This forum has a large userbase and has a lot of great information available, particularly in the P&M forums. It could be a hell of a lot better, however, (along with a great many forums not excluisively dedicated to 40K or wargaming in general) if the users and/or mods did a better job of improving the quality of discourse and did something about people being negative simply for the sake of being negative.

Think of it as taking Wil Wheaton's "Don't Be A D***" mantra to a new audience.

I realize that this particular topic wouldn't be met with universal acclaim, but my intention was not to piss anyone off simply for my own amusement.

The problem is that you sound like a pro. You sound like a person who has been here in the past and not some new commer with under 100 postings.
There have in the past been people coming to this site as well as others stirring up the community in a negative fashion spouting off a lot of Pro GW crap.

Credit is given when credit is due. When GW does the right thing they do get praise.

 WarOne wrote:

 Kung Fu Hamster wrote:
It could be a hell of a lot better, however, if the users and/or mods did a better job of improving the quality of discourse and did something about people being negative simply for the sake of being negative.

This can be done constructively by getting like minded people to join such a cause. Make a thread about it in the Nuts and Bolts section and see what others say.

I may do this, but my opinion is that forum users would be a better source of change than forum mods/owners. Social/group pressures coming from within tend to be stronger than external forces in quality control for thing like this, I've noticed.