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**RatBot**

If you mean Mad4Mini's avatar, Ouze, that's a Stone Rhino/Behemoth.

-1 nerd point!

Don't have much to add, other than sure, there's loads of mindless negativity toward GW; there's a fair chunk of knee-jerk defense of GW at even the slightest hint of criticism, too, as well as a some mindless negativity towards other companies. And frankly, as long as the mods remain impartial in their moderation, I see no real issue. There's no need for them to be impartial in their opinions, though; they're free to feel however they want to feel as hobbyists (little 'h', though I guess they're free to feel however they want to feel as capital 'H' Hobbyists, too, when applicable) and express it just like anyone else. Sometimes the signal-to-noise ratio gets a bit whacky, mostly in N&R and Dakka Discussion, but the game/company-specific forums seem to remain relatively free from this.

Overall, though, this thread is a bit of train wreck, eh?

**AllSeeingSkink**

Amaya wrote:
I still don't see how that is unfair.

All this talk of "fairness" is a bit pointless IMO. Each individual and each company mutually decides what it "fair". However, just because you might not want to describe a pricing scheme as "unfair" in absolute terms, you may still want to describe it as anti-customer/community or unfair in your own self.

If it's out of your acceptable price range, don't buy it.

And I won't, GW is a long way away from being outside my price range. However it is approaching what I feel is fair (note "what I feel", not "what is"), and as such I've increased my importing, decreased my overall purchases and increased my bitching about it, I don't see the problem with any of those.

Completely stopping purchases and stopping the game is much trickier because I'm invested heavily in it. Just because my car is costing me a few hundred a month more than I would like doesn't mean I'm going to go out in to the backyard and burn it, costing me several thousand more. GW are pushing my buttons, not just with price but also with their business practices, but I'm not going to ragequit and throw away my time and money investment that easily. When they finally push the "bugger it I quit" button, you won't hear from me anymore because I won't be here.

Unfortunately it's not so much a button as it is an analog dial, slowly creeping up.

**HiveFleetPlastic**

clively wrote:
HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

Tenuously tying this back to the topic, though, a lot of people have this weird idea that you should charge a fair price for your goods and services based on their worth and a reasonable expectation of profit rather than charging whatever you think will generate the maximum possible revenue. They think you shouldn't rip people off even if, due to market factors, you have the opportunity. Perhaps that's old fashioned. It is something that engenders very negative reactions, though, and even for those of us who initially accept the prices that reaction can be triggered by the price hikes.

The problem here is who defines what's "fair"? ...

However, when you bring in unnecessary items, like wargaming products, then the only way to be fair is to allow the market to establish the maximum price they are willing to pay. In Canada/Australia, that price is apparently higher than for Americans or Brits.

"Ripping people off" is not really related to price and is entirely related to how a given person feels about a purchase they have made. In a previous life I sold cars for a living. In a very few cases I sold some for huge losses just to get them off the lot. I still remember one lady who bought a car from me in which we lost over $15k on the deal and she thought she had been ripped off. The car was brand new with a MSRP of $35k; I sold it for $13k simply because it had been on our lot for far too long and was costing us more money every single day it sat there. There was nothing wrong with the car, it had 15 miles on it due to a couple of demo drives. It had not been wrecked and the paint didn't have so much as a minor chip in it. Regardless, a week after buying she came to me claiming she had been ripped off. Yes, this is an extreme case, but I tell it to highlight that the terms "fair" and "ripping people off" are completely dependent upon the person using those words.

Is it fair for GW to make a product that someone might not be able to afford? Yes. Is it fair that GW raises prices to the point that you are no longer able to continue in their definition of The Hobby? Absolutely. As a matter of fact, I for one am very glad GW has risen prices. It has caused numerous other companies to spring up to offer products of similar, or in some cases higher, quality at better price points. This is a great thing for the market and everyone will ultimately benefit. If the new competition is good enough, it will certainly result in a repricing at some point. To help that along I hope that most tournaments shift to allowing, if not actively encouraging, usage of non-gw miniatures. This would be a huge boon to wargamers in general. I like this game, and I generally like the models GW releases. However, if I can buy a squad of "armored space infantry" that is of equal or better quality for a lower price point then I will happily vote with my dollars. And, just to be clear, I'm not talking about buying something recast or a blatant rip off of GW tac squads. Rather, I'd look for a new take on the whole look.

Yes, as you have pointed out fairness is quite subjective. The problem is, I don't think most people buy into "it's okay for a company to charge whatever they want and that's fair because you don't need it so you should just never mention it and the market will fix it." People are going to see an unreasonable (subjective, yes) price and they are going to say the company is trying to rip them off and is by extension a bunch of jerks.

What's a reasonable price is certainly a tricky issue, as most of us aren't presented with a detailed cost breakdown in the store. However, when you can buy, let's say, some Galadhrim Knights for $55 AUD and some Knights of Rivendell are released for $85 AUD, it might be natural to wonder if you're being taken for a ride. That can make people a bit angsty and it's a direct result of the company's actions (assuming, of course, that they really are just trying to take advantage of a captive audience and that the prices aren't justified, but it's hard to see how that could be the case here).

Point being, the community being a bit angsty at times is not just because the community is horrible and unreasonable and a bunch of haters or whatever. It's a pretty logical result of some current GW policies, pricing among them.

**clively**

RatBot wrote:
If you mean Mad4Mini's avatar, Ouze, that's a Stone Rhino/Behemoth.

-1 nerd point!

completely off-topic:

I still have 1 of those in a box in my garage.

I had to rebuild both of the arms because the thin top portion didn't survive very much handling due to the relative to the size/weight of the gun on the lower portion.

**RatBot**

clively wrote:
RatBot wrote:
If you mean Mad4Mini's avatar, Ouze, that's a Stone Rhino/Behemoth.

-1 nerd point!

completely off-topic:

I still have 1 of those in a box in my garage. I had to rebuild both of the arms because the thin top portion didn't survive very much handling due to the relative to the size/weight of the gun on the lower portion.

Nice. Well, the owning it part is nice, not the having to rebuild it part. I think I would legitimately eat a crate of live puppies for an Unseen, any of them, but especially the original Warhammer, Marauder, or Behemoth.

**Amaya**

Expressing your dislike for the price increase and refusing to buy the products is the best option. If you continue to spend money on GW, they are, in a sense, winning. They are selling less product for a higher price. That is a win win for them.

**Alfndrate**

Amaya wrote:
I still don't see how that is unfair. It is a not an essential good. If it's out of your acceptable price range, don't buy it.

Edit: Not worth the potential warning... Good day, welcome to ignore.

**HiveFleetPlastic**

Amaya wrote:

Expressing your dislike for the price increase and refusing to buy the products is the best option. If you continue to spend money on GW, they are, in a sense, winning. They are selling less product for a higher price. That is a win win for them.

I agree that is potentially the best option. Bear in mind, though, that this thread is not about whether the price is too high, but about what responsibility the community or moderators bear for the tone of the discussions on the board. The price stuff is only relevant in that GW policy is the direct cause for much of the negativity and that blaming the community for it or saying that everything would be flowers and rainbows and puppydogs if the community would stop being so mean is not really reasonable.

**cincydooley**

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
.
]
Yes, as you have pointed out fairness is quite subjective. The problem is, I don't think most people buy into "it's okay for a company to charge whatever they want and that's fair because you don't need it so you should just never mention it and the market will fix it." People are going to see an unreasonable (subjective, yes) price and they are going to say the company is trying to rip them off and is by extension a bunch of jerks.

.

This is an interesting opinion to me. I've never once thought that the folks at BMW were a bunch of jerks because I can't afford their cars.

@Alf-->. Why put him on ignore for that comment? If you can't afford it or find It outside your acceptable price range, isn't the logical solution not to buy it?

**clively**

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

What's a reasonable price is certainly a tricky issue, as most of us aren't presented with a detailed cost breakdown in the store. However, when you can buy, let's say, some Galadhrim Knights for $55 AUD and some Knights of Rivendell are released for $85 AUD, it might be natural to wonder if you're being taken for a ride. That can make people a bit angsty and it's a direct result of the company's actions (assuming, of course, that they really are just trying to take advantage of a captive audience and that the prices aren't justified, but it's hard to see how that could be the case here).

Point being, the community being a bit angsty at times is not just because the community is horrible and unreasonable and a bunch of haters or whatever. It's a pretty logical result of some current GW policies, pricing among them.

I think it's best if you take a second and put what you just said into perspective. These are boxes of plastic; and not even super high quality plastic at that. The box itself cost more to produce than the parts inside; and that's taking into account designer time, molds, etc. If price is the question about whether you are being "taken for a ride": well, even if those knights were sold for $20AUD you would be. You can go look at some random fighter jet model being sold by Revell, like a flying fortress, for $32US. This is a larger model with more parts, same quality of plastic materials, lots of detail and a much lower production run than a 40k land raider. Yet it retails for less than half what a land raider does in the US. Getting back to the Knights, $85 is certainly a lot of money for what amounts to less than $5 worth of a box of plastic. If that's how you value it. I simply have a different way of valuing it.

People who have a hard time affording to buy something will of course think that it's unfair. This is normal and is independent of whether we are talking about toy soldiers or the latest mobile phone. It is also independent of how much that item is priced at.

I understand that people have time, money and energy invested in this hobby. I also understand that as a hobby 40k is still far cheaper than most. I'm also saddened by the price people have been willing to pay GW simply because, at least in the short term, it shrinks our community. However, the only real thing to do if you are unhappy is to simply not purchase GW products.

**Amaya**

It is a given that people are going to complain about something. It is the moderator's choice to let them vent.

I don't think the price increases merit continued discussion. People want to attack GW for being a business, blame GW for hiking up prices in Australia, blame GW for murdering their mother and deflowering their sister, and so forth. It gets to the point where you just have a bunch of posters parroting each other and nothing of value is said.

**Alfndrate**

cincydooley wrote:
HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
.
]
Yes, as you have pointed out fairness is quite subjective. The problem is, I don't think most people buy into "it's okay for a company to charge whatever they want and that's fair because you don't need it so you should just never mention it and the market will fix it." People are going to see an unreasonable (subjective, yes) price and they are going to say the company is trying to rip them off and is by extension a bunch of jerks.

.

This is an interesting opinion to me. I've never once thought that the folks at BMW were a bunch of jerks because I can't afford their cars.

@Alf-->. Why put him on ignore for that comment? If you can't afford it or find It outside your acceptable price range, isn't the logical solution not to buy it?

It is, but from the moment I stepped into this thread, I had made it clear that GW was not essential, and neither were any of the things that he had in the link... He'll likely come off ignore, but atm his posts have pushed all of my right buttons... and I'd rather ignore him and calm down than continue to get angry and get a warning... I mean I had you on ignore for awhile...

And for many people, being priced out of a game they enjoy is worse than not being able to afford it from the beginning.

**cincydooley**

Let me guess: Through the Breach? :-D

As to being priced out of the game: for the vet community, how are you being priced out? What happened to all the stuff you've been playing with for 5 editions?

I haven't bought a single thing for my Space Wolves in 6E and I have plenty of fun with the stuff I already had.

As much as I really want the wolves to get a flyer, I'm plenty fine with what I've got right now.

**OverwatchCNC**

Amaya wrote:

Expressing your dislike for the price increase and refusing to buy the products is the best option. If you continue to spend money on GW, they are, in a sense, winning. They are selling less product for a higher price. That is a win win for them.

Your continued insistence that those in Australia and New Zealand who think their prices are unfair and they should quit whining about it is childish. Over the last several pages of your comments on this matter I have a hard time not envisioning a child with his fingers in his ears yelling at the other children who find his version of tag, where he must always win, to be unfair.

Sure fairness is a subjective matter. But your insistence that the current GW, and most companies antiquated mark ups for that region, to be fair is completely outside the realm of subjective. I can't read this obviously troll bait thread anymore. I wish there was ignore button for threads and not just people. Mods,Yak, Legoburner? Is that possible?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amaya wrote:
It is a given that people are going to complain about something. It is the moderator's choice to let them vent.

I don't think the price increases merit continued discussion. People want to attack GW for being a business, blame GW for hiking up prices in Australia, blame GW for murdering their mother and deflowering their sister, and so forth. It gets to the point where you just have a bunch of posters parroting each other and nothing of value is said.

At least you can recognize your contribution to this thread.

**clively**

Alfndrate wrote:
And for many people, being priced out of a game they enjoy is worse than not being able to afford it from the beginning.

This, more than anything else said here, is the heart of the issue. Which is an unfortunate circumstance.

**insaniak**

Amaya wrote:
The expense doesn't apply only to GW products as many posters make it out to be.

Nobody has ever made it out to be only GW that is doing this. GW just get discussed more than, say, Apple, because this is a Wargaming forum.

**Amaya**

OverwatchCNC wrote:
Amaya wrote:

Expressing your dislike for the price increase and refusing to buy the products is the best option. If you continue to spend money on GW, they are, in a sense, winning. They are selling less product for a higher price. That is a win win for them.

Your continued insistence that those in Australia and New Zealand who think their prices are unfair and they should quit whining about it is childish. Over the last several pages of your comments on this matter I have a hard time not envisioning a child with his fingers in his ears yelling at the other children who find his version of tag, where he must always win, to be unfair.

Sure fairness is a subjective matter. But your insistence that the current GW, and most companies antiquated mark ups for that region, to be fair is completely outside the realm of subjective. I can't read this obviously troll bait thread anymore. I wish there was ignore button for threads and not just people. Mods,Yak, Legoburner? Is that possible?

Mate. You realize you're getting emotional and bent out of shape over what somebody typed on a forum, right? You just made a post that didn't contribute anything that hasn't already been said. You got so worked up over my posts that you had to log on, type out an insult, and then hit enter.

Can you understand why I can't take someone's opinion on economics seriously when they don't have the maturity to not get worked up and angry over a forum? How can I believe that you are logical enough to step back and assess the situation from a neutral position when you're mad over a forum?

Yes, part of the mark up of in Australia and New Zealand is due to antiquated exploitation. A good bit of it is also due to the Aussie dollar crashing into the abyss not too long ago, relatively high wages, import duties (etc), and a small market. I don't pretend to know all the details of it, but you're pretending this is a clear cut situation and these foreign companies are demonic greedy fiends.

**cincydooley**

Again... If you're already in the hobby, how are you getting priced out? What's wrong with all the stuff you used in the previous 5 editions?

Edit: not to mention its strange to call the Australian pricing situation antiquated when, realistically, it wasnt that long ago when the Aussie dollar was hella weak.

**Amaya**

insaniak wrote:
Amaya wrote:
The expense doesn't apply only to GW products as many posters make it out to be.

Nobody has ever made it out to be only GW that is doing this. GW just get discussed more than, say, Apple, because this is a Wargaming forum.

Really? If nearly every imported good is being marked up how can you complain about GW doing the same? It's not a GW problem, it's an Australian trade issue.

**Ouze**

RatBot wrote:
If you mean Mad4Mini's avatar, Ouze, that's a Stone Rhino/Behemoth.

-1 nerd point!

:( Now I feel the fool, though that explains why it's so squat.

**Amaya**

cincydooley wrote:
Again... If you're already in the hobby, how are you getting priced out? What's wrong with all the stuff you used in the previous 5 editions?

Desire to expand existing armies, start new armies, power creep, and cost of new codices/army books.

**insaniak**

Amaya wrote:
Really? If nearly every imported good is being marked up how can you complain about GW doing the same? It's not a GW problem, it's an Australian trade issue.

I already addressed that. People are going to complain about the companies that actually matter to their purchasing. But I'm not going to complain about Apple's pricing on a wargaming forum.

And yes, it's an issue with Oz retail at large... but for a GW customer, it's also a GW issue, because ultimately it's down to individual companies to do the right thing by their customers. Or not... and suffer the consequences of driving away a chunk of their customer base to those companies that aren't gouging them just because they think they can.

**Amaya**

I don't know anything about Australia's trade laws or taxes, so I don't know how much of a markup comes from those, but you can't blame all of the differential just on GW being greedy. Some of the differential is due to shipping, taxes, and potentially wages.

**cincydooley**

Amaya wrote:
cincydooley wrote:
Again... If you're already in the hobby, how are you getting priced out? What's wrong with all the stuff you used in the previous 5 editions?

Desire to expand existing armies, start new armies, power creep, and cost of new codices/army books.

But the core argument is that you can't build an army for X amount of dollars, right? Ill need to spend more money on my wolves when a new codex comes out. Everything else I choose to add it born from want or desire.

I can have plenty of fun without min-maxing and concerning myself with codex creep, ya know?

**Amaya**

Yep, but people are going to want to try the new stuff and be mad that they can't buy as much of it as they want.

**insaniak**

Amaya wrote:
I don't know anything about Australia's trade laws or taxes, so I don't know how much of a markup comes from those, but you can't blame all of the differential just on GW being greedy. Some of the differential is due to shipping, taxes, and potentially wages.

Absolutely. Which is why I don't expect Australia's prices to be exactly the same as everyone else's. A reasonable difference to account for import tarifs and shipping is fine.

But because of economy of scale, if I can buy something and have it shipped halfway around the world and still wind up half the price of buying one over the counter at my local store, something has gome horribly wrong.

**Adam LongWalker**

Amaya wrote:
insaniak wrote:
Amaya wrote:
The expense doesn't apply only to GW products as many posters make it out to be.

Nobody has ever made it out to be only GW that is doing this. GW just get discussed more than, say, Apple, because this is a Wargaming forum.

Really? If nearly every imported good is being marked up how can you complain about GW doing the same? It's not a GW problem, it's an Australian trade issue.

This is where I have to chime on in. I have experience in the import/export trade dealing with the pacific rim mostly. Even though there are tariffs and customs and all sorts of paperwork you have do deal with if you want to do business within that country, I personally can not see all of the price increases into Australian New Zealand region be just blamed on the trade issue. Some of it yes. But not all of it.

The problem I see comes down to how the corporation deals with its customer base. That is the key point to a great deal of problems that GW has. That to me is the key point to the negativity going around here.

There are no public relations. There is no advertisements. No public face. Did they not remove their Facebook page?
There is only a perceived parasitic relationship between them and their retailers and customers.
The amount of cost of playing this game is getting to the point where other companies are taking away their customer base.

Do I like 40k? Yes. Do I like the gouging of the average gamer to play this game? Absolutely not. It erodes the foundation of new people getting into the game. I want the game to stay around for a while, but even I with deep pockets is starting to play other types of games.

**Amaya**

The only thing I could find on tariffs suggested that it was around a 20% markup. You also will need to factor in the wage of workers at GWs/FLGSs in Australia. From what I understand they should be higher than their American counterparts. ASFAIK, the overall standard of living is higher (than any other country?). I'd guesstimate 30%-50% higher would be reasonable, but I don't have all the data.

The point is just that it isn't all GW's fault. There are other factors at play. I understand why people are frustrated over the increases, but you have to keep the discussion logical and at least attempt to identify and assess all the other variables before coming to a conclusion.

**Adam LongWalker**

Amaya wrote:
The only thing I could find on tariffs suggested that it was around a 20% markup. You also will need to factor in the wage of workers at GWs/FLGSs in Australia. From what I understand they should be higher than their American counterparts. ASFAIK, the overall standard of living is higher (than any other country?). I'd guesstimate 30%-50% higher would be reasonable, but I don't have all the data.

The point is just that it isn't all GW's fault. There are other factors at play. I understand why people are frustrated over the increases, but you have to keep the discussion logical and at least attempt to identify and assess all the other variables before coming to a conclusion.

I understand what you are saying. But again to me the problem lies on how GW communicates to its customer base. Better communication would lead to less firestorms that are happening more and more often on this site and many other big sites that are online. Games Workshop is not providing that kind of communication that other came companies are.

How can the average person come to a conclusion when you are not given all of the variables to complete that conclusion? the answer is that you complete that conclusion with what information that you have.

You made your point and I'll agree to some of what you have posted above. The 20% tariff mark up sounds right to me.

**Bullockist**

Amaya wrote:

Yes, part of the mark up of in Australia and New Zealand is due to antiquated exploitation. A good bit of it is also due to the Aussie dollar crashing into the abyss not too long ago, relatively high wages, import duties (etc), and a small market. I don't pretend to know all the details of it, but you're pretending this is a clear cut situation and these foreign companies are demonic greedy fiends.

I don't understand when the dollar crashed, in fact the dollar is sitting around or above parity with the US dollar and has for years.