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I have received two interpretations of the following:

A Hive Tyrant charges someone with a Bonesword. It makes a Hammer of Wrath attack.

Assertion 1: Hammer of Wrath says the model "makes an attack". Bonesword says wounds inflicted by the model receive no saves of any kind. Bonesword also has no AP value. Therefore, the Hammer of Wrath attack is Str. 6 with no save.

Assertion 2: Hammer of Wrath says it's "AP -", so it remains AP "-".

Please clarify if you can, thanks.

HOW is not a attack with the models weapons so it doesnt matter if the model has boneswords or not, it is still ap - so any models hit still get a save

Hammer of Wrath is not an attack with the model's weapons. It has a specified strength and AP.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Hammer of Wrath is not an attack with the model's weapons. It has a specified strength and AP.

Tyranid biomorphs aren't weapons. They simply modify their attack characteristics. It's spelled out pretty explicitly.

I'd still say no, as the FAQ that says you don't benefit from poison or rending or whatever. I don't know the specific wording off hand, but from memory it should fit this situation.

Before the FAQ you'd benefit from the Bonesword according to RAW, but they changed it so that you can't.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Before the FAQ you'd benefit from the Bonesword according to RAW, but they changed it so that you can't.

No you never benefited from boneswords according to RAW, as the rules for HoW was more specific than the bonesword rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Before the FAQ you'd benefit from the Bonesword according to RAW, but they changed it so that you can't.

No you never benefited from boneswords according to RAW, as the rules for HoW was more specific than the bonesword rules.

Yes, which meant the attack was AP - and ignored armor saves. Just like a MC with a black mace swings at AP 4 and AP 2.

No really it didn't, an AP- attack does not ignore armor saves.

Hammer of Wrath "...it makes one additional Attack that hits automatically at the model's unmodified Strength with an AP of -. This attack is resolved during the Fight sub-phase at the Initiative 10 step. This does no grant the model an additional Pile In move at the Initiative 10 step."

Bonesword "No armour saves may be taken against wounds inflicted in close combat by a Tyranid with a bonesword."

Before the FAQ, the Bonesword would have had an effect purely because RAW the hammer of wrath hit is a wound inflicted in close combat. However, with the new FAQ it states that wargear doesn't effect it all. So it used to but now doesn't.

 DeathReaper wrote:
No really it didn't, an AP- attack does not ignore armor saves.

It does if it had a special rule saying that the attack ignored armor saves.
What you're saying is that Boneswords don't work at all because a normal CC attack is AP -.

 DeathReaper wrote:
No really it didn't, an AP- attack does not ignore armor saves.

Why can't an attack bd AP- and have a special rule allowing it to ignore armor saves? It doesn't get +1/2 on vehicle damage charts, so it's clearly not AP1/2, yet you still don't get a 2+ save against it.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
No really it didn't, an AP- attack does not ignore armor saves.

Why can't an attack bd AP- and have a special rule allowing it to ignore armor saves? It doesn't get +1/2 on vehicle damage charts, so it's clearly not AP1/2, yet you still don't get a 2+ save against it.

An attack can be both, but in the case of HoW the HoW rules were more specific than the bonesword rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
No really it didn't, an AP- attack does not ignore armor saves.

Why can't an attack bd AP- and have a special rule allowing it to ignore armor saves? It doesn't get +1/2 on vehicle damage charts, so it's clearly not AP1/2, yet you still don't get a 2+ save against it.

An attack can be both, but in the case of HoW the HoW rules were more specific than the bonesword rules.

There wasn't a conflict whatsoever. The FAQ made it not work.

As above. There was no conflict between the two, so it was both AP- and it ignored armour saves. Same as a rending attack rolling a 6 from HoW to-wound would be AP- and AP2 - *before* the FAQ

How about the rule saying you have to take a leadership test or die?

That'd be a special rule and the FAQ says those dont transfer to HoW.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
Hammer of Wrath is not an attack with the model's weapons. It has a specified strength and AP.

Tyranid biomorphs aren't weapons. They simply modify their attack characteristics. It's spelled out pretty explicitly.

I'd still say no, as the FAQ that says you don't benefit from poison or rending or whatever. I don't know the specific wording off hand, but from memory it should fit this situation.

The Bonesword is listed under a section called "Weapons and Biomorphs", sub-section "Close Combat Weapons".

The part you're referring to tells us "Tyranid models never receive bonus Attacks for fighting with more than one close combat weapon". (pg 33).

Tyranids absolutely use weapons. This is evident because they have a Ranged Weapons and Close Combat Weapons section, and the Biomorph Upgrades section is separate from both of those. Biomorphs are akin to special wargear items for Marines, such as an auspex or teleport homer.

Now since a Bonesword is clearly a weapon, we look at the FAQ:

Q:When a model makes a Vector Strike or Hammer of Wrath,
do these attacks benefit from any special rules (such as Furious
Charge , Poisoned or Rending), or any weapons or other wargear
it is equipped with? (p37/43)
A: No.

A bonesword is a weapon. Hammer of Wrath gets no benefit from weapons. Hammer of Wrath gets no benefit from a bonesword.

Nivek5150 wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
Hammer of Wrath is not an attack with the model's weapons. It has a specified strength and AP.

Tyranid biomorphs aren't weapons. They simply modify their attack characteristics. It's spelled out pretty explicitly.

I'd still say no, as the FAQ that says you don't benefit from poison or rending or whatever. I don't know the specific wording off hand, but from memory it should fit this situation.

The Bonesword is listed under a section called "Weapons and Biomorphs", sub-section "Close Combat Weapons".

The part you're referring to tells us "Tyranid models never receive bonus Attacks for fighting with more than one close combat weapon". (pg 33).

Tyranids absolutely use weapons. This is evident because they have a Ranged Weapons and Close Combat Weapons section, and the Biomorph Upgrades section is separate from both of those. Biomorphs are akin to special wargear items for Marines, such as an auspex or teleport homer.

Now since a Bonesword is clearly a weapon, we look at the FAQ:

Q:When a model makes a Vector Strike or Hammer of Wrath,
do these attacks benefit from any special rules (such as Furious
Charge , Poisoned or Rending), or any weapons or other wargear
it is equipped with? (p37/43)
A: No.

A bonesword is a weapon. Hammer of Wrath gets no benefit from weapons. Hammer of Wrath gets no benefit from a bonesword.

This is also my interpretation. HoW represents the unit smashing directly into the target unit, not hitting it with its usual CCW, so it is not affected by weapon stats/rules.

Does it really matter if a bonesword is a CCW or not? If it is a weapon then you do not get perks from it for HoW. If it is wargear, then you do not get perks from it for HoW.

Nivek5150 wrote:
]Tyranids absolutely use weapons.

Page 33, C:T

Tyranid creatures do not wield close combat weapons as such...

No, they don't.

In fact more evidence that Tyranid "CCW" are not actual weapons:

Page 83 - Claws and Teeth: Models that have claws and teeth count as having a normal close combat weapon.

Now I know what you are all going to say, count as == is, however, if they were normal CCW, it would have just said "Models with claws and teeth have a normal CCW".

rigeld2 wrote:

Nivek5150 wrote:
]Tyranids absolutely use weapons.

Page 33, C:T

Tyranid creatures do not wield close combat weapons as such...

No, they don't.

Then why is listed under weapons?

DakotaBlue wrote:
Then why is listed under weapons?

I don't know.
Why does that matter? Tyranids don't use anything but Claws and Teeth for CCW.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nivek5150 wrote:
]Tyranids absolutely use weapons.

Page 33, C:T

Tyranid creatures do not wield close combat weapons as such...

No, they don't.

The "as such" is a reference to "wielding", because they are grown from their bodies, not held in their hands like typical weapons. The sentence you're pointing to is a sentence about fluff, not rules. It is the context that sets up the rule you find in the second sentence, which states they never gain an additional attack for having an additional "close combat weapon" because it's already included in their profile. The rule tells us not to add the bonus attack because it's already been added, and then you'd be adding it twice. This does not stop it from being a weapon for game purposes or otherwise. Notice this rule is under the heading "Tyranid Close Combat Weapons".

Let's look at the rest of the Codex:
"This section of the book detail the forces used by the Tyranids - their warriors, their weaponry..." (pg 33)
Heading: Unique Weaponry: "The army list at the back of the book shows all the standard and optional weaponry and biomorphs available to a particular model." (pg 33)
Every single unit entry lists Unit Type, Weapons and Biomorphs, and Special Rules.
Carnifex entry, "Frag Spines: Many Carnifexes have carapaces studded with explosive spine banks or other extremely short ranged bio-weapons..." (pg 46)
Hive Guard entry, "Impaler cannons are large bio-weapons..." (pg 47)
Pyrovore entry, "The Pyrovore's flamespurt bio-weapon..." (pg 49)
Tyrannofex entry, "Acid Spray: This weapon...." (pg 53)
Section heading: "Weapons and Biomorphs" (pg 81), sub-section "Ranged Weapons" (pg 81), sub-section "Close Combat Weapons" (pg 83)
"This section... lists the weapons... used by the Tyranids." (pg 81)
"Weapons and biomorphs that can be used..."; "...(including weaponry and psychic powers used by..." (pg 81)
Deathspitter: "A deathspitter is a complex multi-creature weapon..." (pg 81)
Fleshborer: "When the weapon is fired..." (pg 81)
Heavy Venom Cannon: "These weapons..."; "...a residue of that used to fire the weapon" (pg 82)
Spinefists: "This weapon-creature..." (pg 82)
Stinger Salvo: "...simple but effective weapons..." (pg 82)
Thorax Swarm: "A thorax swarm is a weapon used in the Shooting phase in addition to any other weapon(s) the model may have... can fire up to two weapons and a thorax swarm..." (pg 82)
Venom cannon: "a long, powerful bio-weapon... The weapon fires..." (pg 82)
Tyranid army list, "Weapons and Biomorphs: This section details the weapons... the models in the unit are armed with." (pg 85)

So the Tyranid codex uses the word "weapon" a few dozen times, explicitly states things as weapons multiple times, and has their equipment listed under the heading "Weapons". You have a single sentence of fluff that you've altered the context of and want to ignore the rest of the codex.

Nivek, except for the close combat weapon sub-section you mentioned, almost every example you listed was for ranged weapons.

Furthermore, if the bonus for two weapons was already figured in, then if a hive tyrant replaces is weapons for two twin-linked deathspitters, assuming 3 attacks in profile, how many attacks would it have?

Q: Do Tyranid models combine the effects of multiple Tyranid close
combat weapons in an assault? For example, if I have model that has
both Scything Talons and Rending Claws, do I re-roll results of 1 To
Hit and still have the Rending special rule. (p83)
A: Yes.

Scything Talons & Rending Claws are both close combat weapons, explicitly stated in the Tyranid FAQ. You can find them in the Codex in the "Close Combat Weapons" section, the same section as Bonesword, by the way. Fancy that.

Now in what universe is a close combat weapon not a weapon?

Stop splitting hairs, defining them as weapons or wargear doesn't change the fact you can't use them for Hammer of Wrath.

Despite the Fact HOW attacks are AP- do you still count it as AP2 due to smash as the tyrant is a MC and therefore no armour saves would take place only invul and FnP?

 skycapt44 wrote:
Despite the Fact HOW attacks are AP- do you still count it as AP2 due to smash as the tyrant is a MC and therefore no armour saves would take place only invul and FnP?

No - the FAQ for Hammer of Wrath says:

BRB FAQ wrote:Q: When a model makes a Vector Strike or Hammer of Wrath,
do these attacks benefit from any special rules (such as Furious
Charge, Poisoned or Rending), or any weapons or other wargear
it is equipped with? (p37/43)
A: No.

Also, Smash specifies that all CC attacks other than HoW attacks are AP2.

You are correct! How did I miss that.