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So the Ultramarines have the Ultramar sector that on face value appears to be run more effectively and efficiently than the remainder of the Imperium.

My question is how were they Ultramarines awarded the sector and could any other chapter of Space Marines receive a similar area?

If they could, would it be restricted to first founding chapters?

They have it because it was a little Empire that Roboute Gulliman managed to take control over prior to the Emperor's arrival.

My homebrew chapter has a similar little empire that they control within the Imperium.



As for how a Chapter may come into such an arrangement, it could be for multiple reasons.

1) The sector has a very light imperial presence aside from the Chapter. As such they are the only persons in the area capable of administering it.

2) The Marines have claimed multiple planets for them to recruit from that come under their control. The chapter develops some of the more advanced planets into an efficient little pocket kingdom of their own to support themselves.

The Ultramarines werent awarded the area, Roboute Guilliman built it up during the great crusade IIRC

Edit: Damn ninjad

Intriguing... I was attempting to integrate a rogue trader into some background fluff for my army.

Ideally I was after a chapter that was rational in its approach to warfare / ruling etc. I considered the Imperial Fist and the Raven Guard... or even surviving members of the Lamenters. Thoughts?

Go with White Consuls. Pretty fair/reasonable, beloved by most of their subjects, guard major major trade routes (good for RT), train with Ultras, so can tie in existing fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/White_Consuls

The other reason is the primarch. Robout Guiliman unique talent was logistics and information processing. His legion share that trait with him and thus ultraamar is so well run.

 La Rouge Beret wrote:
So the Ultramarines have the Ultramar sector that on face value appears to be run more effectively and efficiently than the remainder of the Imperium.

Ultramarine propaganda, mostly. Their polar fortresses ran out of ammo after fighting the Tyranids for a day - in a setting where sieges last years without anyone running out of anything. A Chapter that fails to stock their major fortresses for such a siege is not handling anything efficiently, they're living in a dreamworld built on the glory of old victories. Calgar says things are shiny and who's to say different to a man commanding Exterminatus?

It can be done by other Chapters. Lugft Huron and the Astral Claws did the same thing, even using the Ultramarines as evidence of the legality of this act. There was only a problem because Huron refused to share the resources with the other local Sectors -needing it to maintain the Maelstrom Zone- and the Trade Lords that thrived off trade with the Badab Sector became desperate and started the Badab War.

Of course, they weren't so much 'awarded' the sector so much as took it as their right.

Spetulhu wrote:

 La Rouge Beret wrote:
So the Ultramarines have the Ultramar sector that on face value appears to be run more effectively and efficiently than the remainder of the Imperium.

Ultramarine propaganda, mostly. Their polar fortresses ran out of ammo after fighting the Tyranids for a day - in a setting where sieges last years without anyone running out of anything.

You're forgetting that Hive Fleet Behemoth had a preference for frontal attack and mass assault compared to other Hive Fleets.

Spetulhu wrote:

 La Rouge Beret wrote:
So the Ultramarines have the Ultramar sector that on face value appears to be run more effectively and efficiently than the remainder of the Imperium.

Ultramarine propaganda, mostly. Their polar fortresses ran out of ammo after fighting the Tyranids for a day - in a setting where sieges last years without anyone running out of anything. A Chapter that fails to stock their major fortresses for such a siege is not handling anything efficiently, they're living in a dreamworld built on the glory of old victories. Calgar says things are shiny and who's to say different to a man commanding Exterminatus?

Their Polar fortresses also had guns that were glowing white hot and jamming in temperatures way below freezing. You don't quite understand Tyranids do you? There are trillions upon trillions of little gribblies attacking with more being spawned each minute, you could have an ammo hold as big as Britain and still run out, they just do not stop.
I'm sick of people hating on Ultramarines because it's cool. Logistics is their thing, they plan and prepare and do things efficiently, that's what makes them great. They have a nigh Utopian empire because they know how to run things, it's not shiny because Calgar says it is, it's shiny because Calgar says it should be and it is made so. Guilliman set up the foundation for this, all the modern Ultramarines do is keep it that way.
One of the few solids in the fluff is that Ultramar is a great empire, it's impossible to deny without making stuff up.

Yeah and it has been a while since Ultramar had much distress. So the Nids caught the Ultramarines with their pants down. I mean there were ammo stored there, but think about it. Macragge long was Solar Systems from any any troubles. So what they did was churning out troops to support other parts of the IOM. They weren't prepared for that heavy assault by the Tyranids. Of course how utopian the Ultramar-society is, is up for debate due to if you can't pull your weight, then you have little place there, and the weak babies are left out in the cold to die.

Spetulhu wrote:

 La Rouge Beret wrote:
So the Ultramarines have the Ultramar sector that on face value appears to be run more effectively and efficiently than the remainder of the Imperium.

Ultramarine propaganda, mostly. Their polar fortresses ran out of ammo after fighting the Tyranids for a day - in a setting where sieges last years without anyone running out of anything. A Chapter that fails to stock their major fortresses for such a siege is not handling anything efficiently, they're living in a dreamworld built on the glory of old victories. Calgar says things are shiny and who's to say different to a man commanding Exterminatus?

You are forgetting the fact that a Tyranid invasion is totally different from a standard siege, when the attackers have no sence of self preservation and can be recreated from the dead, its obvious that there would be no way to stock enough ammunition.

Fascinating responses... so in the event that a rogue trader conquers several star systems in conjunction with an unknown SM chapter.

The understanding between the two forces would be that the system would also provide recruits for the SM and future IG regiments. How would this actually work on who has the first call to resources etc of recruits?

The recruits a marine chapter draws away from the planet would be insignificant to the whole planet's population. Nothing that could effect regimental recruitment.

See Necromunda.

Although I would assume it depends on the planet in question, and in the case of Necromunda it is just one world that has volunteered to send recruits to the Imperial Fists, but certainly not the only one.

In the end, any issues and details would be handled by the Adeptus Terra, for a world cannot belong both to a Marine Chapter and the Administratum. And seeing that, personally, I like the comparison between Rogue Traders and the real life people like Columbus, I would assume that at some point in time a world colonised or conquered by a Rogue Trader needs to be assessed and "integrated" into the greater Imperium, and tithed accordingly.

 La Rouge Beret wrote:

Ideally I was after a chapter that was rational in its approach to warfare / ruling etc. I considered the Imperial Fist and the Raven Guard... or even surviving members of the Lamenters. Thoughts?

Be careful. Don't forget that 40k is purposefully designed as a universe with no good guys. You're treading into Mary-Sue territory. If you want to make your chapter significantly less flawed in one area then the rest of the setting you should be mindful to add flaws in another.



My problem with Ultramar is it is a HUGE area to only belong to the Ultramarines. Did the second founding happen and those that kept the blue and yellow told the black/white consuls, Novamarines, Aurora chapter, Doom Eagles, etc to sod off?

 Oakenshield wrote:


My problem with Ultramar is it is a HUGE area to only belong to the Ultramarines. Did the second founding happen and those that kept the blue and yellow told the black/white consuls, Novamarines, Aurora chapter, Doom Eagles, etc to sod off?

Aye, really how do 1,000 men rule a mini empire while also running around the galaxy battling the enemies of the Imperium? TBH I always assumed certain successor chapters like the Novamarines that have a close bond with the Smurfs were connected to Ultramar, which would make it a little more plausible. Then again making Chapter 10,000 or 25,000 strong would also help but I digress...

 Lynata wrote:
In the end, any issues and details would be handled by the Adeptus Terra, for a world cannot belong both to a Marine Chapter and the Administratum. And seeing that, personally, I like the comparison between Rogue Traders and the real life people like Columbus, I would assume that at some point in time a world colonised or conquered by a Rogue Trader needs to be assessed and "integrated" into the greater Imperium, and tithed accordingly.

I've been toying with the idea that Rogue Trader charters could actually also be hereditary Imperial Governors for some less-developed or otherwise insignificant worlds they've rediscovered. The RT can collect tithes for the Administratum when he goes for his next trading/looting trip there. It would explain how those worlds seldom even see Imperial officials, it saves the Administratum on work costs and the RT gets a nice title to add to his list as long as he behaves.

As for the poor Ultramarines 1st Company, I realize the story was intended to make the Tyranid invasion seem brutal and the 1st Company badass in their last stand. It instead made the 1st look like punks left to die in a half-empty shell of a base, and also made the entire Chapter look ill-prepared. A fortress like that should hold supplies and support staff for the full Chapter, IMO - it shouldn't run out of anything except men in that situation. You'd have serfs running up ammo crates and new guns as fast as they can, servitors trundling about with stacks of quick-change replacement barrels for weapons, marines shooting guns empty and discarding them for a full one if they don't have time to reload. The last stand should have been in one of the cavernous halls where equipment for a full Company is stored, dead marines lying over a barricade of ammo crates and dreadnoughts with a dozen different empty weapons around each fallen man.

 Jape wrote:

 Oakenshield wrote:


My problem with Ultramar is it is a HUGE area to only belong to the Ultramarines. Did the second founding happen and those that kept the blue and yellow told the black/white consuls, Novamarines, Aurora chapter, Doom Eagles, etc to sod off?

Aye, really how do 1,000 men rule a mini empire while also running around the galaxy battling the enemies of the Imperium? TBH I always assumed certain successor chapters like the Novamarines that have a close bond with the Smurfs were connected to Ultramar, which would make it a little more plausible. Then again making Chapter 10,000 or 25,000 strong would also help but I digress...

Well its not directly run by Marines on a day to day basic, for the most part it is run by humans picked by the chapter with the Ultramarines HQ making the bigger discisions when needed.

@Spetulhu

Thing is, those fortresses were never designed to face an enemy like the Tyranids. Behemoth's style of frontal attack and mass attrition puts both the Orks and Guard 'meat-grinder' generals to shame. In fact, IIRC, the Ultramarines actually decided to go against the codex and create a new unit for the purpose of fighting the Tyranids as a result of their experiences with Hive Fleet Behemoth.

Oakenshield wrote:My problem with Ultramar is it is a HUGE area to only belong to the Ultramarines. Did the second founding happen and those that kept the blue and yellow told the black/white consuls, Novamarines, Aurora chapter, Doom Eagles, etc to sod off?

Meh, 8 systems with 1 major world each isn't that huge an area - although it is an oddity in that I've never heard about any other Astartes Chapter having custodianship over so many planets.

Perhaps it helps to see Guilliman (or Calger in these days) like a sub-sector governor who simply passes on his ideas and wishes to normal human governors whose staff then takes care of the day-to-day admin, rarely intervening directly but keeping an eye on how things are and occasionally setting aside a few hours per week to deal with an issue personally. As Chapter Master, he should have the time, unless the entire Chapter goes to war somewhere.

Spetulhu wrote:I've been toying with the idea that Rogue Trader charters could actually also be hereditary Imperial Governors for some less-developed or otherwise insignificant worlds they've rediscovered. The RT can collect tithes for the Administratum when he goes for his next trading/looting trip there. It would explain how those worlds seldom even see Imperial officials, it saves the Administratum on work costs and the RT gets a nice title to add to his list as long as he behaves.

Mhm. Whilst I think it would be very likely for a Rogue Trader to petition the High Lords for being granted the title and office of governor, I do not believe it could go hand in hand with continued existence as a Rogue Trader. Imperial governors have local responsibilities and are personally held accountable for their territories, in addition to being expected to regularly meet with officials from the other Imperial Adepta who would set up local branches, such as the Ecclesiarchy building a temple or the Arbites setting up a Fortress-Precinct.

It's an "either/or" thing - you can't just be a governor when you're away from your world on 360 days per year. At least this would be my interpretation/expectation.

Interesting... my original thoughts were for a Rogue Trader to conquer an area with the assistance of a SM chapter probably the Novamarines.

He would then transition into a hereditary governor of the system, but all of the posts have helped me refine my thoughts.