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Sorry to bother you guys again, but I've been poring over the Rule Book and am still not too clear.... I've played several games already to date so I have an idea of whats going on. However, I'm still not too sure about the Assault Phase and how many attacks you have.

For example:

Assault Squad with 5 Marines, each of them with a chainsword + bolt pistol + fragg + krakk (standard).

Scenario 1:
If you charge another squad of troops (say another squad of space marines), how many attacks to you have (each Marine)?
3 (A 1 + Bolt Pistol +1, Charge +1); or
4 (A1 + Chainsword +1, Bolt Pistol +1, Charge +1); or
5 (A 1 + Chainsword +1, Bolt Pistol +1, Frag/Krakk +1, Charge +1)

Scenario 2:
Likewise I charged a dreadnought the other day. If you charge a dreadnought (Armour 12) with these guys, obviously with a Strength of 4, the bolters + fragg were of no use against the Dreadnought. So I was advised to use the Krakks (Strength 6 ~ I needed rolls of 6 to Glance the Dreadnought, which I did!), which gave me 1 Attack each + Charge +1 = 2 Attacks during the charge

Scenario 3:
How does a melta bomb for my Sergeant affect the above 2 scenarios? Does it stack on the attacks of the individual marine?


These questions are killing me!

Thanks in advance for any words of wisdom you may offer to my humble self!

 dominiquekee wrote:
Assault Squad with 5 Marines, each of them with a chainsword + bolt pistol + fragg + krakk (standard).

Scenario 1:
If you charge another squad of troops (say another squad of space marines), how many attacks to you have (each Marine)?
3 (A 1 + Bolt Pistol +1, Charge +1); or
4 (A1 + Chainsword +1, Bolt Pistol +1, Charge +1); or
5 (A 1 + Chainsword +1, Bolt Pistol +1, Frag/Krakk +1, Charge +1)

You get 3 attacks. You only get the +1 bonus for a second close combat weapon, not for each one that you are carrying.

Scenario 2:
Likewise I charged a dreadnought the other day. If you charge a dreadnought (Armour 12) with these guys, obviously with a Strength of 4, the bolters + fragg were of no use against the Dreadnought. So I was advised to use the Krakks (Strength 6 ~ I needed rolls of 6 to Glance the Dreadnought, which I did!), which gave me 1 Attack each + Charge +1 = 2 Attacks during the charge

If you're using a grenade in close combat, you only get one attack.

Scenario 3:
How does a melta bomb for my Sergeant affect the above 2 scenarios? Does it stack on the attacks of the individual marine?

The sergeant gets one attack with his meltabomb against a vehicle or monstrous creature. It has no benefit against anything else.

Thanks for the info Brother Insaniak.

With regards to the melta bomb, would that not be effective against other troops, let say, those in terminator armour or stronger Independent Characters?

Melta bombs are only usable against monstrous creatures and vehicles.

Thanks for that Brother SoloFalcon1138, but where does it state so in the Rulebook? I'm trying to make sense of all this. Sorry for being a pain!

 dominiquekee wrote:
Thanks for that Brother SoloFalcon1138, but where does it state so in the Rulebook? I'm trying to make sense of all this. Sorry for being a pain!

Bottom of page 61, left column, second and third paragraphs.

It actually doesn't explicitly say anywhere "can only be used against Vehicles/Monstrous Creatures" but if you look at all the other grenade entries on pgs 61/2 you see that they all have rules listed under headings for shooting and assault, giving their effects when thrown and in an assault respectively. Melta bombs have no such entries, only a single line explaining their effect against Vehicles & MCs, so they can only be used against said targets.

Explicitly giving permission for one type of use is explicitly limiting it to that use only. Permissive rule set.

I´ll hijack this thread for a question of my own.
As far as i know hen i charge a unit in cover i´ll have to attack with I1 as long as i don´t have frag grenades.
To mitigate the initiative-debuff do i have to actually throw a grenade during the assault or is carrying grenades in my squad already enough?

Just carrying them is enough

Carrying the grenades is enough. Using the weapon in the shooting phase is completely independent of the assault.

Just need to have 'em, tommse. Just need to have 'em.

Edit: Wow ninja'd twice.

tommse wrote:
I´ll hijack this thread for a question of my own.
As far as i know hen i charge a unit in cover i´ll have to attack with I1 as long as i don´t have frag grenades.
To mitigate the initiative-debuff do i have to actually throw a grenade during the assault or is carrying grenades in my squad already enough?

Carrying your grenades is enough.

The more questions and answers, the more we beginners get to learn!

However, I'm going to have to read that 'Charge a Unit In Cover' rule to really understand the question...

i recently reread that rule "Charging a unit in cover" because someone tried to jib me out of benefits when i did it.

All it says is if you charge through cover (any model touches terrain that you agreed upon causes a Difficult Terrain test via a straight shot to your target) you lose your initiative and fight at I1 for that turn. My opponent tried to say you lose ALL charge benefits, and the only thing i could find was initiative (i play orks so i could give two hoots about initiative lol).

Pay attention when you charge near terrain though, its always a straight line towards your target. If that random model in the back has to go over a crater, you are technically charging through terrain. Friendly games usually let you charge "around" craters for these situations, but RAW you still hit terrain and must roll as such.

Great info Brother Vineheart01!

Only the first model is forced to move the shortest path (which is not *always* a straight line - see: impassable terrain) to the target unit(s); other models can charge a further distance than this as long as they obey the charge rules in terms of mximising base to base, those that are engaged, etc.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Only the first model is forced to move the shortest path (which is not *always* a straight line - see: impassable terrain) to the target unit(s); other models can charge a further distance than this as long as they obey the charge rules in terms of mximising base to base, those that are engaged, etc.

What do you make of the second paragraph in the right column of BRB p.21? Specifically, it says, "Charging units must attempt to engage as many models in the enemy unit as possible with as many of their models as possible - no holding back or trying to avoid terrain!"

Nothing along those lines is mentioned in the step by step process, and it is possible to "hold back or try to avoid terrain" if you follow that process, but that seems to contradict that sentence.

Also, as a general note re: charging through difficult terrain, there is an FAQ on the subject. It's not terribly clear to me what the FAQ means, though (like many of the assault rules, it seems to be written in a bit of a fuzzy way).

Nothing there contradicts what I have said - as long as you fulfil the bullets, by ensuring each follows the bullets, you are allowed to move other than in a straight line to do so. This means you could avoid terrain, which is still allowed - you are told you cannot avoid terrain as *part* of the preceding texts requirements, whivch is to engage as many as possible.

I wonder if I shouldn't make a new thread with assorted assault questions, but maybe this would clear up your stance on it a little. Say I have a unit of three models (for simplicity's sake) charging another unit. The initial charger moves into base contact. With the charge range I rolled, one of the three models can reach a second model in the enemy unit, but one of them can't reach any. By your reading, can I choose to move the model that cannot reach an enemy model before the one that can?

The reason I ask this is if you can move them in that order it's very easy to, with a large unit or specific layout of impassable terrain, move the models in such a way that you do not engage as many models in the unit as possible, despite the paragraph (p.21, paragraph 2) quoted above. It also makes a lie of the last paragraph on the page, which says you will have engaged as many models as possible.

On the other hand, if you can't move them in any order then the bullet pointed list is a bit incoherent (it would mean it switches randomly between talking about any given model in the unit and all models in the unit).

I understand the confusion there - they have c&p'ed the 5th edition bullets, and then added more restrictions that sort of override them.

I would say you have to follow the bullets AND the overall requirement at the same time; so instead of picking any model you like to move next, you must pick the one that results in the most models getting into base to base / engaged

This still doesnt alter that,as longs as you do this, you CAN move around terrain to avoid the I1 as long as it is a model after the first model.

If you have 3 models of which only 2 can get engaged with a 12" move, the first with a clear run and 2 more with a terrain-blocked route, as long as you roll high enough to still get both engaged, you can go around the terrain.

That makes more sense, thanks. I never played fifth edition (or third, or fourth) so I don't pick up the overlap. I asked a GW store staff person a similar question and he told me that you can just move the models in any order and that in a tournament situation doing so could be important, but that in a normal game most people just wouldn't care either way. His answer to the "If you follow this sequence..." was that it's true for the given order you chose to move the models in, which was pretty handwavey.

The next page, p.22, also says that "...charging models must engage as many enemies in the target unit as possible." so there it is again, but the previous page says, "If you follow this sequence..." as if that's all you need to consider.

It sounds like your explanation is right, though there's the additional FAQ stipulation that

The BRB FAQ wrote:If, when charging, one or more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to reach the enemy by the shortest possible route, the unit must make a Difficult Terrain test (see page 90).

Does taking a difficult terrain test mean you count as having moved through difficult terrain? What is "the enemy" in this context - the closest model or the model they will eventually end up charging? (cue quantum stuff)

The reason this keeps driving me up the wall is the difficult terrain stuff is the difference between my poor Hormagaunts (and, sometimes, Genestealers) being a dangerous enemy and a pushover, and I both don't want them to be useless and don't want to unintentionally cheat somehow.

You take the difficult terrain test because you are moving through it. So, yes, you would count as having moved through DT. Bear in mind that if your unit has to move through DT in order to charge you roll 3D6 and take the two lowest to work out your charge range.

"The enemy" is the enemy unit.

If you can take a charge route that isn't direct, as nosferatu1001 believes (and whether he's right or not seems to depend on if you think "...or avoiding terrain!" has meaning, because nowhere else does it say that anyone other than the initial charger has to move in a straight line) then per FAQ that is not the case - you could have to take a difficult terrain test because the shortest route goes through difficult terrain, but then not actually take that route.

I'm not sure "the enemy" as the enemy unit makes sense as the context is their relation to "one or more models" from the charging unit. Which enemy model would you use to check if the model has to move through difficult terrain to reach the unit by the shortest route? The closest would work, but it's easy to imagine a situation where the charging models can all make it to the closest enemy model via the shortest possible route without passing through difficult terrain, but would have to move through difficult terrain to reach any others.

Actually, now that you mention it, it actually says "have to", not "would have to", which sort of implies it only occurs if a model actually has to move through terrain to reach the enemy via the shortest possible route... which only applies to the initial charger, because nobody else has to take the shortest possible route. That can't be intentional.

This assault stuff is confusing.

Also, maybe worth noting the errata replaced the old line about if you had to move through difficult terrain with the new thing.

It's somewhat ambiguous, but I play it that if any possible assault roll (2" to 12") would result in at least one model crossing difficult terrain in order to obey the assault requirements (maximizing base contact, engaging unengaged enemy models if possible, etc.), then you have to suck up the 3d6. That's erring on the side of caution, IMO, and it's usually pretty easy to determine.

As above - as this is a pain to determine (similar to 5th, but more so due to variable charge) I take the safest route, which is taking Diff. Terrain tests more often than it could be argued you need to.

The issue with the FAQ is "shortest possible route". You can potentially arrange your ordering such that the possible routes for each model do not cross terrain, based on the order in which you move them.