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 Lord Yayula wrote:

Following the OP's interpretation that would mean that any FMCs without a shooting weapon can't use VS. i.e. the CSM DPs, since he doesn't have a range weapon he can't VS?, this obviously is not the case, meaning that the VS doesn't require a weapon to be used/fired. Translating this to the Heldrake would leave the baleflamer/Autcannon free of shooting.

I tried this with a Lord of Change earlier, but the recent StormRaven example, as well as the gun-less Daemon Prince (from CSM or Daemons) work much better.

I think, Ted1138, you have to answer the question posed by Yayula. I'll repeat it:

Can a Swooping Daemon Prince without a gun do a Vector Strike?

If he can, then clearly a gun is not fired or used to Vector Strike.

If he cannot, then you have broken the rules.

Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

Following the OP's interpretation that would mean that any FMCs without a shooting weapon can't use VS. i.e. the CSM DPs, since he doesn't have a range weapon he can't VS?, this obviously is not the case, meaning that the VS doesn't require a weapon to be used/fired. Translating this to the Heldrake would leave the baleflamer/Autcannon free of shooting.

I tried this with a Lord of Change earlier, but the recent StormRaven example, as well as the gun-less Daemon Prince (from CSM or Daemons) work much better.

I think, Ted1138, you have to answer the question posed by Yayula. I'll repeat it:

Can a Swooping Daemon Prince without a gun do a Vector Strike?

If he can, then clearly a gun is not fired or used to Vector Strike.

If he cannot, then you have broken the rules.

Of course it can. Not having a weapon does not mean it can't Vector Strike(and saying so doesn't contradict what I've been saying either)...

Yes, it does contradict it,

You are stating that performing a VS counts as using one of the actual guns you fire with in the shooting phase. So VS with a heldrake means it has used up the baleflamer.

If this is the case (it isnt) then if you have NO guns, then you cannot VS - you cannot use a gun you dont have. So a weapon destroyed heldrake could not vector strike.

This is of course entirely untrue; for the purpose of determining how many weapons YOU ARE ALLOWED TO FIRE VS "uses up" one of those weapons; a FMC is allowed to fire just one, not two, in the shooting phase. Similarly a heldrake is allowed to fire UP TO 3, but only has one.

rigeld2 wrote:

ted1138 wrote:
Also, a Heldrake can't fire 4 weapons, it can only fire one...

Citation required.

People keep repeating this like it's accurate - it's not.

Ok,, what other weapons can a Heldrake fire, other than it's Bale Flamer/Hades Autocannon? Do you have a citation that shows a Heldrake can fire weapons it doesn't have?

ted1138 wrote:

Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

Following the OP's interpretation that would mean that any FMCs without a shooting weapon can't use VS. i.e. the CSM DPs, since he doesn't have a range weapon he can't VS?, this obviously is not the case, meaning that the VS doesn't require a weapon to be used/fired. Translating this to the Heldrake would leave the baleflamer/Autcannon free of shooting.

I tried this with a Lord of Change earlier, but the recent StormRaven example, as well as the gun-less Daemon Prince (from CSM or Daemons) work much better.

I think, Ted1138, you have to answer the question posed by Yayula. I'll repeat it:

Can a Swooping Daemon Prince without a gun do a Vector Strike?

If he can, then clearly a gun is not fired or used to Vector Strike.

If he cannot, then you have broken the rules.

Of course it can. Not having a weapon does not mean it can't Vector Strike(and saying so doesn't contradict what I've been saying either)...

So which weapon does it use up? It seems your argument is that Vector Strike counts as firing one of the weapons a model has. If the model has 0 weapons to fire, then it could not use Vector Strike instead of firing one of its weapons.

ted1138 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

ted1138 wrote:
Also, a Heldrake can't fire 4 weapons, it can only fire one...

Citation required.

People keep repeating this like it's accurate - it's not.

Ok,, what other weapons can a Heldrake fire, other than it's Bale Flamer/Hades Autocannon? Do you have a citation that shows a Heldrake can fire weapons it doesn't have?

No, youre just not reading what youre writing with any precision

A heldrake CAN fire UP TO 4 weapons while zooming. It actually only has one, but if it somehow gained 3 more it could fire them all.

ted1138 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

ted1138 wrote:
Also, a Heldrake can't fire 4 weapons, it can only fire one...

Citation required.

People keep repeating this like it's accurate - it's not.

Ok,, what other weapons can a Heldrake fire, other than it's Bale Flamer/Hades Autocannon? Do you have a citation that shows a Heldrake can fire weapons it doesn't have?

The heldrake (as a zooming flyer) has permission to fire 4 weapons, correct?
The heldrake only has 1 weapon (with no permission to fire that weapon multiple times), correct?
If the heldrake fires its 1 weapon, it still has permission to fire 3 more, it just does not have any.

This is the same as a Monstrous Creature with 0 or 1 weapon.

Edit: Darn it nos, stop ninja-ing me!

 Happyjew wrote:

ted1138 wrote:

Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

Following the OP's interpretation that would mean that any FMCs without a shooting weapon can't use VS. i.e. the CSM DPs, since he doesn't have a range weapon he can't VS?, this obviously is not the case, meaning that the VS doesn't require a weapon to be used/fired. Translating this to the Heldrake would leave the baleflamer/Autcannon free of shooting.

I tried this with a Lord of Change earlier, but the recent StormRaven example, as well as the gun-less Daemon Prince (from CSM or Daemons) work much better.

I think, Ted1138, you have to answer the question posed by Yayula. I'll repeat it:

Can a Swooping Daemon Prince without a gun do a Vector Strike?

If he can, then clearly a gun is not fired or used to Vector Strike.

If he cannot, then you have broken the rules.

Is it really so hard to tell the difference between "counts as" and "has"? All this pedantic rules-lawyering is getting out of hand. The only thing left now is the "Chewbacca-Defense"...

Of course it can. Not having a weapon does not mean it can't Vector Strike(and saying so doesn't contradict what I've been saying either)...

So which weapon does it use up? It seems your argument is that Vector Strike counts as firing one of the weapons a model has. If the model has 0 weapons to fire, then it could not use Vector Strike instead of firing one of its weapons.

Again: it isnt "rules lawyering", just "you are reading a rule in a way which has no support, linguistically or otherwise"

You have no rules argument, and refuse to answer the questions. Point conceded

Next Ted is going to try and convince everyone that once the bale flamer is destroyed you cant vector strike.

He has to, its the only way his argument would make any logical sense.

I think someone's heels have been dug in.

Yeah, some people just can't let the Chaos codex have its little bit of chedder.

Enough. Discussing another poster is inappropriate; stick to critiques of arguments, or find yourselves another thread to participate in.