Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I read 13'th Black Crusade overview and there is one thing that's bugging me while reading this: did Cadians fought alone in the land battle or did they have some assistance?

They had lots and lots of help.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/13th_Black_Crusade#Imperial_Forces2
Scratches the surface here

If you have access to the Black library book '13th Black crusade' the background is indepth and quite useful. (I'm considering selling my copy on e bay)

Thanks, but from what I have read the only ones who fought with Cadian Shock Troops on Cadia itself were the Space Wolves 13'th company and White Scars.

Total rubbish.

352 regiments appear in the '13th Black crusade' source book at the back. A few are Cadian, the vast majority are not.
The list of 352 was an excert of page 9 of 30.
I could name you at least 250 non cadian regiments from that 1 page alone

An even more complete account of Force Dispositions than the C:EoT offers can be found in WD #281 pages 44-47 - although it does not list more units but rather goes into detail by adding some background to the majority of them.

And yes, the Cadian regiments seem to be by far the most numerous concentration of troops from a single system, but there are many, many more regiments who have been sent to reinforce them.

Sidenote:

Eetion wrote:352 regiments appear in the '13th Black crusade' source book at the back. A few are Cadian, the vast majority are not. The list of 352 was an excert of page 9 of 30. I could name you at least 250 non cadian regiments from that 1 page alone

What book exactly is that? It doesn't sound like the list from the Codex: Eye of Terra (which lists 612 regiments of Cadian Shock Troops alone, not counting Kasrkin or Youth Army).

This book.

Its basicly the background story from the entire campaign, troop dispositions and events from the point of view of an officer in cadian high command.

Hmmh. Black Library. Still, the list of writers is intrigueing.

I *may* have to check this out. Thanks!

[edit] I suppose it's possible that the apparent inconsistency in comparison to the Codex list is explained by the "snapshot" just being made at a later point in the campaign. GW also put out two charts for Armageddon, one at the start of the conflict and one at the end of the First Season of Fire.

No problem. Its quite a good publication for Black Library. Well worth a look.

Alright, ordered it now! Sheesh, out-of-print stuff is expensive. Still managed to find one seller who did not want a new car or something in exchange...

 Eetion wrote:
No problem. Its quite a good publication for Black Library. Well worth a look.

I disagree. The book had little in common with how the worldwide campaign actually went. For much of the book, it reads like the Imperials are winning then suddenly overnight going to losing, whereas in reality during the campaign, the Imperials were losing for about the 2nd half of the campaign at least. Also it neglects pretty much all the other warzones, limiting itself to short blurbs. The Forces of Order losing the Scarus and Agrippinaa sector systems was a key part of why the campaign was declared a Disorder victory yet the book ignores this key role.

 Eetion wrote:


This book.

Its basicly the background story from the entire campaign, troop dispositions and events from the point of view of an officer in cadian high command.

Does it have a lot of Creed and Logan drinking sessions?

Iracundus wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
No problem. Its quite a good publication for Black Library. Well worth a look.

I disagree. The book had little in common with how the worldwide campaign actually went. For much of the book, it reads like the Imperials are winning then suddenly overnight going to losing, whereas in reality during the campaign, the Imperials were losing for about the 2nd half of the campaign at least. Also it neglects pretty much all the other warzones, limiting itself to short blurbs. The Forces of Order losing the Scarus and Agrippinaa sector systems was a key part of why the campaign was declared a Disorder victory yet the book ignores this key role.

I disagree, although it has been a while since I read cover to cover.
But from the viepoint of a Cadian High Command officer it is going to focus on the Cadian system.
I got the feeling of deesperation especially around the st josmanes hope event.

 Eetion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
No problem. Its quite a good publication for Black Library. Well worth a look.

I disagree. The book had little in common with how the worldwide campaign actually went. For much of the book, it reads like the Imperials are winning then suddenly overnight going to losing, whereas in reality during the campaign, the Imperials were losing for about the 2nd half of the campaign at least. Also it neglects pretty much all the other warzones, limiting itself to short blurbs. The Forces of Order losing the Scarus and Agrippinaa sector systems was a key part of why the campaign was declared a Disorder victory yet the book ignores this key role.

I disagree, although it has been a while since I read cover to cover.
But from the viepoint of a Cadian High Command officer it is going to focus on the Cadian system.
I got the feeling of deesperation especially around the st josmanes hope event.

Even if you restrict to just looking at the Cadian system it doesn't match the course of events. In the campaign, the Cadian system slid steadily, with a few comebacks, but the overall trend was downwards from its initial starting point:

http://web.archive.org/web/20031015103118/http://hipcat.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/index.htm

In the book, it reads like the Cadians are defeating this and that Chaos force at every turn, then suddenly get defeated and forced to retreat. Even the destruction of St. Josmane's hope gets portrayed more like a costly but successful blow against Chaos rather than the desperate attempt to salvage something from a debacle. The feeling I got was the RL author was going on a standard Imperial propaganda spree of showing Creed and the Imperium trampling over its enemies then belatedly realized he had to match the results so inserted the stuff at the very end about them losing. It is also inconsistent in that it shows the Chaos forces as prevailing through just brute force numbers with little in the way of strategy, whereas the campaign was won precisely for Disorder because of RL player strategy and Order disorganization. A better way of portraying it in the book would have been to show the infighting and politicking in the Imperium's command structure with everyone having their own idea or priorities, and everyone looking out to protect their own little bit of territory, leading to diffusion of resources and troops. Rather than have generic evil Chaos horde overwhelming through human waves and bodycount, they could have shown CSM kill teams or surgical strikes picking apart key points in defenses.

But that's the thing. It did match the course of the events.
The Imperium did have a rssurgence in the percentages. They were slow off the mark to respond to the 'threshold' effects, and chaos out fought them at every tuen.
But a few weeks in to the ressurgence they made gains agaisnt the disorder forces but they suffered to infighting and divisions, and then once again Chaos made advances.

It wasn't a s steady decline, but the Imperium did have a 'winning' period where they were rolling back chaos gains.

Also given that its written from the reponse of a Guard general concentrating in the Chaos system, the specifics of other Battlezones would have been in the form of reports (which the book includes) rather than being fully aware of the specific details.

An imperial officer would always try to look at it strategically, and would concentrate on the strategic disposition and tactical application of the guard forces. I skimmed the book again, and a large proprtion of the journal entries start as a response to something chaos or doing. Very little in the way of imperial counter attacks etc.

 Eetion wrote:
But that's the thing. It did match the course of the events.
The Imperium did have a rssurgence in the percentages. They were slow off the mark to respond to the 'threshold' effects, and chaos out fought them at every tuen.
But a few weeks in to the ressurgence they made gains agaisnt the disorder forces but they suffered to infighting and divisions, and then once again Chaos made advances.

There is little sense of Chaos outfighting the Imperium in the book until the very end, when it does a quick U-turn. For the majority of the book, the relevant parts on Cadia don't show any steady Imperial decline.

It wasn't a s steady decline, but the Imperium did have a 'winning' period where they were rolling back chaos gains.

Also given that its written from the reponse of a Guard general concentrating in the Chaos system, the specifics of other Battlezones would have been in the form of reports (which the book includes) rather than being fully aware of the specific details.

An imperial officer would always try to look at it strategically, and would concentrate on the strategic disposition and tactical application of the guard forces. I skimmed the book again, and a large proprtion of the journal entries start as a response to something chaos or doing. Very little in the way of imperial counter attacks etc.

Look at the part where it portrays the Creed's counterattack (matching the event card). It almost immediately switches from a triumphalist "Imperial forces sweeping away and crushing all beneath their treads" to a "OMG we're losing" with little explanation for how one segued into another. There is no sense of the Imperium on Cadia being in such dire straits until the very end. Rather than Creed's counterattack (i.e. event card) being like a last gasp (which was what it was during the campaign), that segment of the book seemed more like some kind of crushing Imperial victory winning the war, only to flip into a defeated despairing tone a page or 2 later.

If one looks at the Imperial Control data, from day 49 to day 56 it was all drops in Imperial Control or at best no change, and the total change over those days plunged the Imperial Control from around 64% to 39.7%. Only on the final day was there a tiny 0.1% change in Imperial Control in favor of the Imperium, from 39.7% to 39.8%. Looking at the magnitude of the changes, Creed's counterattack (again the event card rather than any player action) didn't accomplish a thing.

And as you said, it didn't accomplish anything in the book either. A page or 2 later and it was back to chaos on top.

The imperial repponses were more coordinated for a while and across the systems put up a better fight, because let's be honest, most, the war was won on other planets.

If its written from an imperial officers perspective, he's allowed to be inspired at launching a counter attack, he can have high hopes, equally if the attack stalls and back on the defensive he's allowed to write the despair.

Its not a blow by blow from neutral point of view, but the imperiums response to the events, and most of those are responses to negative events.

Also can you tell me page of creeds counter attack, I can't seem to find it.

Creed's counteroffensive is Operation Chrysos, on p. 70-71. However then on p. 72-73, it writes of SM victories all over, not just in Cadia, then on p. 79 of SW and DA crushing mutants together. While both of these were event cards as such, the way the book was written poorly tied these into a coherent narrative. Thus we have several pages of apparent Imperial triumphalism switching to defeat and despair on p. 80, suddenly without a good transition. On page 52, the officer talks again of a major Imperial offensive victory. On p. 59 about how they are making gains on the planet Tabor and across the Agripinaa Sector (gains that would be lost in the campaign but curiously not mentioned in the book). On page 66 about how a force of mutants and Black Legion are crushed and Imperial fleet reinforcements arriving.

In other words, the lead up for like 30 pages makes it sound like the day is saved and the Imperium is going to win, even though it takes some effort. I don't get any sense that "Chaos is on top". There is no sense that the Imperial triumphs were actually the blips in the otherwise more or less steady downward trend, which was the actual campaign chronology. For example, the event card portraying the DA and SW crushing a mutant force was on Kasr Sonnen on Day 52. Looking at the Imperial Control charts, it had the effect of a tiny Imperial Control rise while the rest of the system fell due to a Disorder triggered threshold/cascade effect. This ground was promptly lost (and more) the next day with another Disorder triggered cascade. Instead the book does an abrupt U-turn between p.79 and 80, going from apparent salvation to being defeated and retreating, and it is this lack of adequate transition after so many pages of pro-Imperial buildup that is part of why the book has poor writing. One would think for example, losing a little over 24% of Cadia, would get a bit more build-up or detail. If it were Earth, 24% is like losing more than a continent.

Ok I'm with you now.

Operation chrysos, although a major imperial offensive at the end of the Operation
'High Command has declared the evacuation a success, for without such a bold counter attack, the enemy would have taken total control of those areas he occupied at the beginning of the war. Operation Chrysos may prove but a brief respite in the tumultuous conflict' p71

Doesn't sound a decisive victory but a speed bump for the chaos forces despite imperial gains.

P72-74 we have not just SM victories but details on lortox evacuations before the destruction by the planet killer,

The war on medusa and the clan companies forced to defend their home.

Malins reach being deemed tainted and destroyed by cyclonic topedoes

78-79 we hsve erebus diabolical magics,

A chaos infiltrators unit attacked and nearly elliminated chaos High Command.

And a period of despair as the planet killer appeared above Cadia.

P58-59 we have chaos cathedrals on an ecclesiarchial world, and the warp storms that followed.
The Gains on Tabor coincide with kharns arrival and efforts to contain him

P52 after the succes of the vermaard assualt, chaos reinforcements arrived and eliminated the troops there. Although the assault was a break out to allow imperial forces to redeploy.

The pages you mention although they do have some Imperial successors, they are by no means complete or 1 sided.
Chaos does have its advantages and successes. Quite significant ones at that. And I would say that its far from 30 pages of Imperial propoganda.

As for it not following the % exactly. I don't think they can write up a whole narrative. How would they account for Threshold effects into an in universe narrative. If the imperium made a push on a world but any gains eliminated by a threshold drop, then its only fair the attempt be mentioned. But in narratives such as these you can't follow the % exactly and some leeway needs to be given.

 Eetion wrote:
Ok I'm with you now.

Operation chrysos, although a major imperial offensive at the end of the Operation
'High Command has declared the evacuation a success, for without such a bold counter attack, the enemy would have taken total control of those areas he occupied at the beginning of the war. Operation Chrysos may prove but a brief respite in the tumultuous conflict' p71

The last bit was a bit of a limp qualifier after all the previous page space spent hyping up the operation.

P72-74 we have not just SM victories but details on lortox evacuations before the destruction by the planet killer,

A agri-world of such unimportance it wasn't a warzone available to be fought over.

The war on medusa and the clan companies forced to defend their home.

Event card. Also ending in a crushing Imperial victory. That only adds to my point.

Malins reach being deemed tainted and destroyed by cyclonic topedoes

Event card. They literally just reprinted the card text. No context of the rest of the sector (i.e. the rest of the systems were sliding deep towards Chaos). It could be argued that Malin's Reach is made to sound like an isolated world and the Exterminatus excising it thus neatly resolving the situation.

78-79 we hsve erebus diabolical magics,

Again just Event Card. All it was just the closing down of minor warzones meaning reporting to only the major ones.

A chaos infiltrators unit attacked and nearly elliminated chaos High Command.

Which is described as being handily beaten off and the Imperial Navy captain being commended.

P58-59 we have chaos cathedrals on an ecclesiarchial world, and the warp storms that followed.
The Gains on Tabor coincide with kharns arrival and efforts to contain him

They conveniently don't follow up on this, because the final results show Tabor fallen to Chaos. This is part of the problem of the entire book. A lot of the Chaos gains are just mentioned in a brief offhand manner or conveniently not mentioned at all, but then the moment there is something like an Imperial success it gets a disproportionate amount of page space.

Chaos does have its advantages and successes. Quite significant ones at that. And I would say that its far from 30 pages of Imperial propoganda.

Some of those "successes" really just amount to failed assaults that lead to either Imperial escape or subsequent Imperial victory. In other words they are like "Mary Sue" flaws in that they aren't really negatives but actually positives.

As for it not following the % exactly. I don't think they can write up a whole narrative. How would they account for Threshold effects into an in universe narrative. If the imperium made a push on a world but any gains eliminated by a threshold drop, then its only fair the attempt be mentioned. But in narratives such as these you can't follow the % exactly and some leeway needs to be given.

I am not saying they should have followed the day to day % slavishly and exactly, but what the writer failed to really convey was that despite all these Event Cards, the Imperium was actually steadily losing ground throughout, and most especially how they still ended in defeat at the end despite the "save the day" tone of the Imperial Event Cards in the 2nd half of the campaign. As I said earlier, there is a sharp transition between p. 79 and p. 80, between "Yes things are tough but we are making progress and pushing them back" tone to the doom and gloom of p. 80. If somebody did not know the events of the campaign, it might be difficult to see how one went from one to the other. The book spends a large amount of page space on Imperial victories, such as Operation Chrysos and the Iron Hands on Medusa for example, so that the transition to despair is hurried and rushed without adequate explanation.

The book would have done better to start interspersing more dire reports about Cadia itself or other warzones at an earlier stage, so there isn't as abrupt a jolt in transition.

I agree. But things went pear shaped the moment the planet killer turns up in orbit.

As you said though, most of those events were event cards, but that in itself warrants mentioning. All those events get passed, and the imperium is still on the back foot. But if the imperium is in an assault it deserves mentioning. Now that can't just be done with off hand comments.

As for chrysos. What exactly did it achieve if its an off hand comment. Not an awful lot to look at it.

Now there areas for improvement certainly, but on the whole its informative and well written. A few improvements here and there certainly, but I don't think its a bad book, certainly not as bad as some.

On the whole I feel the book is a good one.