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Question: Can you go to ground after baiting an overwatch shot or two? Can you go to ground if you take zero wounds from shooting?

I'm assuming this is allowable:

Declare a charge or multicharge with grots where you know you are going to assault with boys.

The opponent now has to chose to shoot overwatch at the grots, or risk getting locked with the grots before the boys charge.
If they don't shoot, charge in as normal. If they do shoot go to ground (a KFF or being in cover will do wonders) to get a 6+//4+ cover save and to keep the grots out of combat.
[The KFF is debateable, but not a rules querry]

This will then allow after going to ground goes away for you to run to an objective and keep the grots alive as opposed to potentially having them get smashed in combat.

Now it sounds a bit abusive/not allowed, but if you take 0 wounds can you still go to ground (not that a grot will never really not take a wound).

I guess the same tactic could be readily used with heavy weapon teams behind defense lines to bait overwatch for harder hitting assault units to do the same.
===========

Thanks all,
Ruphi

You can go to ground after to-hit and to-wound rolls are made, nothing says they have to wound. With the way it is worded though, if they don't hit I don't think you can opt to go to ground as they didn't roll to-wound. But, I'm not sure.

What do you mean "baiting an overwatch"? Yes, you can go to ground after declaring a charge, it's in the rule.

 Kevin949 wrote:
, if they don't hit I don't think you can opt to go to ground as they didn't roll to-wound. But, I'm not sure.

Unless you roll 0 die to wound since it's that phase but nothing hit?

Agree with Kevin949:

"If a unit goes to ground from Overwatch fire (see page 21), then the charge automatically fails."

Yeah but can you choose to go to ground when hit by overwatch fire? I always thought that line was a reference to what to do if a unit fails a Pinning test during overwatch. I don't have my core rule book at hand (the perils of posting from work) but I can't recall anywhere in the rule book that it tells you can voluntarily go to ground in the assault phase.

 pretre wrote:
Agree with Kevin949:

"If a unit goes to ground from Overwatch fire (see page 21), then the charge automatically fails."

This.

Plus you aren't forced to take morale or pinning tests from overwatch fire.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Agree with Kevin949:

"If a unit goes to ground from Overwatch fire (see page 21), then the charge automatically fails."

This.

Plus you aren't forced to take morale or pinning tests from overwatch fire.

Oh right, you aren't are you. Well then I suppose you must be able to choose to go to ground during the charge, 'cause I can't think of anything else that would force you to.

 Kevin949 wrote:

What do you mean "baiting an overwatch"?

By baiting I mean charging with a unit you don't want to really charge with in order to get them to fire overwatch on them, with the intention to go to ground if they use overwatch shots on them. If they shoot the squad they waste overwatch on a potentially more lethal assault unit, and if they don't you just charge in so they don't get overwatch shots at all.

If a guy rolls to hit, hits nothing, he rolls "0" dice to wound.

The 'to wound" dice roll portion was met. I would say, let em go to ground as long as they were shot at.

After all, the number of dice rolled in the "to wound" portion has no bearing on the action having taken place.

When a scatter die is rolled and the blast marker doesn't move it is considered to have scattered "0 inches". If a model doesn't move, it's considered to have moved "0" inches and thus has completed it's movement.

It is after all, the act of being shot at that makes you duck down, not the fact that you got hit in the chest.

That's how I see it.

Ruphi wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

What do you mean "baiting an overwatch"?

By baiting I mean charging with a unit you don't want to really charge with in order to get them to fire overwatch on them, with the intention to go to ground if they use overwatch shots on them. If they shoot the squad they waste overwatch on a potentially more lethal assault unit, and if they don't you just charge in so they don't get overwatch shots at all.

Point of contention here, the assaulted squad should be able to fire overwatch against any unit that charges it (max 1, of course) as you're not locked in combat until the fight sub-phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Idolator wrote:
If a guy rolls to hit, hits nothing, he rolls "0" dice to wound.

The 'to wound" dice roll portion was met. I would say, let em go to ground as long as they were shot at.

After all, the number of dice rolled in the "to wound" portion has no bearing on the action having taken place.

When a scatter die is rolled and the blast marker doesn't move it is considered to have scattered "0 inches". If a model doesn't move, it's considered to have moved "0" inches and thus has completed it's movement.

It is after all, the act of being shot at that makes you duck down, not the fact that you got hit in the chest.

That's how I see it.

That is how I see it as well, but the rules do not. If you were to choose GtG after to-hit but before to-wound then your interpretation would be correct. However, rolling "0" dice is not a thing. If you did not roll anything then you didn't not partake in a particular step.

Even during the times where you are to roll armor saves but, for instance, are hit with an AP2 weapon and have no invul save. You still technically get to roll a die but you automatically fail the test regardless. It is the same for automatically passing tests. A roll was technically made, but the result is discarded and a pass is afforded.

 Kevin949 wrote:

Ruphi wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

What do you mean "baiting an overwatch"?

By baiting I mean charging with a unit you don't want to really charge with in order to get them to fire overwatch on them, with the intention to go to ground if they use overwatch shots on them. If they shoot the squad they waste overwatch on a potentially more lethal assault unit, and if they don't you just charge in so they don't get overwatch shots at all.

Point of contention here, the assaulted squad should be able to fire overwatch against any unit that charges it (max 1, of course) as you're not locked in combat until the fight sub-phase.

This can't be right, per the Ork FAQ for the Shokk Attack Gun:

Q: If a Mek enters combat due to a "Zoink" result, does the enemy unit immediately count as being locked in combat (i.e. no other Ork units may fire at them)? (p35)
A: Yes, the unit and the Mek are immediately locked in combat.

So there we establish that once a unit has completed its move into base to base it is locked in combat. If you get charged you can overwatch the first charging unit or not, but if that unit makes it into base to base you can no longer opt to fire overwatch.

EDIT- code removed

 Kevin949 wrote:
[Point of contention here, the assaulted squad should be able to fire overwatch against any unit that charges it (max 1, of course) as you're not locked in combat until the fight sub-phase..

"should" is not RAW. RAW is that it is locked at the charge move. Anything else is HIWPI.

Which (just to beat him to the point) would mean as soon as one model is in base contact the unit is locked in combat and can only make Pile In moves.

 Kevin949 wrote:

Point of contention here, the assaulted squad should be able to fire overwatch against any unit that charges it (max 1, of course) as you're not locked in combat until the fight sub-phase

.
Unit being charged may only fire overwatch once per turn.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Idolator wrote:

That is how I see it as well, but the rules do not. If you were to choose GtG after to-hit but before to-wound then your interpretation would be correct. However, rolling "0" dice is not a thing. If you did not roll anything then you didn't not partake in a particular step.

Even during the times where you are to roll armor saves but, for instance, are hit with an AP2 weapon and have no invul save. You still technically get to roll a die but you automatically fail the test regardless. It is the same for automatically passing tests. A roll was technically made, but the result is discarded and a pass is afforded.

I know that we agree. This is just to iron it out for when I have to argue it against someone that doesn't. That being said.

The lack of action of a player, due to inability, does not denote that the step didn't take place. I know that is is a little convoluted, it works better as an example.

Here's an example. A player has no models in firing range and no models in assault range. He neither shoots not assaults but is considered to have completed both shooting and assault moves. Because a player turn cannot be completed without finishing those steps.

 Happyjew wrote:

Fragile wrote:
RAW is that it is locked at the charge move. Anything else is HIWPI.

Which (just to beat him to the point) would mean as soon as one model is in base contact the unit is locked in combat and can only make Pile In moves.

@ Fragile it is not RAW (It might be, but there is a counter argument that also holds water).

HJ has it for the counter argument. with added clarification: This means you may not complete the charge move because it is not a Pile in move.

The rules are not 100% solid.

Check out this thread, come to an agreement with your opponent pre-game.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/483327.page

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
RAW is that it is locked at the charge move. Anything else is HIWPI.

Actually it is not RAW (It might be, but there is a counter argument that also holds water).

Actually it is RAW, pg 23. The counter argument is a claim that RAW doesnt work right, so your interpretation would be RAI or HIWPI. But its a discussion that's be overstated many times now. Maybe someday they will FAQ it.

 Happyjew wrote:
Which (just to beat him to the point) would mean as soon as one model is in base contact the unit is locked in combat and can only make Pile In moves.

I dispute this assertion. Why would the locked in combat rules interrupt the assault move? There are no other instances of rules interrupting the execution of another rule. Since GtG is being cited in this thread it doesn't interrupt any portion of the shooting phase, it occurs between the roll to hit and the roll to wound, creating/improving a cover save.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
RAW is that it is locked at the charge move. Anything else is HIWPI.

Actually it is not RAW (It might be, but there is a counter argument that also holds water).

Actually it is RAW, pg 23. The counter argument is a claim that RAW doesnt work right, so your interpretation would be RAI or HIWPI. But its a discussion that's be overstated many times now. Maybe someday they will FAQ it.

Actually it is not, as "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." P. 23

Is a charge move a pile in move?

Bottom line read the thread and come to an agreement with your opponent pre-game on how to play it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/483327.page

 Idolator wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

Point of contention here, the assaulted squad should be able to fire overwatch against any unit that charges it (max 1, of course) as you're not locked in combat until the fight sub-phase

.
Unit being charged may only fire overwatch once per turn.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Idolator wrote:

That is how I see it as well, but the rules do not. If you were to choose GtG after to-hit but before to-wound then your interpretation would be correct. However, rolling "0" dice is not a thing. If you did not roll anything then you didn't not partake in a particular step.

Even during the times where you are to roll armor saves but, for instance, are hit with an AP2 weapon and have no invul save. You still technically get to roll a die but you automatically fail the test regardless. It is the same for automatically passing tests. A roll was technically made, but the result is discarded and a pass is afforded.

I know that we agree. This is just to iron it out for when I have to argue it against someone that doesn't. That being said.

The lack of action of a player, due to inability, does not denote that the step didn't take place. I know that is is a little convoluted, it works better as an example.

Here's an example. A player has no models in firing range and no models in assault range. He neither shoots not assaults but is considered to have completed both shooting and assault moves. Because a player turn cannot be completed without finishing those steps.

Two different things here. Anyway, that's just why I said earlier that I wasn't really sure but the way it was written made it sound like you had to roll to take advantage of it. Again though, even in your example you're comparing something that allows for decision on the player to do something or not against something that is compulsory based on conditions met. It's apples to oranges.

And yes, I know that overwatch is only once per squad, that's why I mentioned it in my post.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Actually it is not, as "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." P. 23

Is a charge move a pile in move?

Bottom line read the thread and come to an agreement with your opponent pre-game on how to play it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/483327.page

A charge is not a pile in move. A charge is declared and models complete their move before the unit is locked in combat. A unit locked in combat may not declare another charge. I honestly don't see this line of reasoning.

A unit moves as one, a unit shoots as one. They make assault attacks per model.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
RAW is that it is locked at the charge move. Anything else is HIWPI.

Actually it is not RAW (It might be, but there is a counter argument that also holds water).

Actually it is RAW, pg 23. The counter argument is a claim that RAW doesnt work right, so your interpretation would be RAI or HIWPI. But its a discussion that's be overstated many times now. Maybe someday they will FAQ it.

Bringing up the page that is headed with "Start of Initiative Step Pile In" is not helping your case. Also, precursor to your page is the main heading...."Fight Sub-Phase".

As it is, the "when are you considered to be locked in combat?" ordeal has been argued before. A link has been added, and we do not need to derail this thread (anymore).

 Happyjew wrote:
As it is, the "when are you considered to be locked in combat?" ordeal has been argued before. A link has been added, and we do not need to derail this thread (anymore).

True enough. Anyway, I still believe that they can go to ground even if the to hit rolls came up with nothing. The shooting players inability to perform an action during a certain step of the process does not exclude the step from being passed through.

The better way for them to have worded it would have been, "After to hits are determined and after wounds are determined." It's the same meaning.

See I'm not so sure that you can G2G if there are no successful To Hit rolls. Going to ground happens between rolling To Wound and rolling Saves/allocating Wounds, none of which happens if there are no Hits.

 Happyjew wrote:
See I'm not so sure that you can G2G if there are no successful To Hit rolls. Going to ground happens between rolling To Wound and rolling Saves/allocating Wounds, none of which happens if there are no Hits.

It is indeed a grey area. One could make a compelling argument either way.

 Happyjew wrote:
See I'm not so sure that you can G2G if there are no successful To Hit rolls. Going to ground happens between rolling To Wound and rolling Saves/allocating Wounds, none of which happens if there are no Hits.

This is correct, you GTG at a certain point, which is After the enemy has rolled To Hit and To wound against your unit.

If there are no to wound rolls you can not go to ground, as you can not declare GTG until after to wound rolls.

HJ and DR are correct.

Interesting, this thread learned me some new stuff.

What we do is that we make "all charges happen at the same time".
We first announce the charges, then people can pick what to overwatch and then the actual charge begins.

Thank you for all the replies and pointing out the other thread with the side topic on the charge subphase and being locked.

I do agree with a wound has to be caused to be able to go to ground.

Kangodo wrote:
Interesting, this thread learned me some new stuff.

What we do is that we make "all charges happen at the same time".
We first announce the charges, then people can pick what to overwatch and then the actual charge begins.

This is not terrible as a houserule, but is distinctly different from the rulebook procedure, which specifically tells us to declare and resolve each charge one at a time. The procedure in the rulebook gives the assaulting player more options and information on which to base his decisions about each charge after the earlier one/s has/have been resolved. Requiring him to declare them all at once hurts assault even more than 6th ed already does, so you may want to reconsider this house rule, unless you locally find that assault is too powerful.