Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've had the privilege of playing a few 2k points limit games in the last year gone by, and those size games kind of showcase the ability of Armoured Panzergrenadiers a bit more. Desperate last stands against a horde of Soviet armour can be commonplace as well

I've been tinkering with using Panzer Lehr, SS-Totenkopf, Sturmdivision, Panzerkompanie and their marginal variants, but I keep coming back to how to improve the Gepanzerte dudes.

Anyway here is a list.

2k Gepanzerte Panzergrenadier Kompanie

HQ- Command Section
- 1 Panzerschreck Team
105

COMBAT PLATOONS

Gpz PnzrGrn Platoon
1x Command Team with Faust
6x MG Team
230

Gpz PnzrGrn Platoon
1x Command Team with Faust
6x MG Team
230


WEAPONS PLATOONS

PnzrGrn Anti-Tank Gun Platoon
1x Command Team
3x PaK40
155

DIVISIONAL SUPPORT

Panzer Platoon
4x Panzer IV
360

Panzer Platoon
4x StuG
380

Armoured Rocket Launcher Platoon
1x Command Team
1x Spotter
4x Panzerwerfer 42 with Extra Crew
230

Anti-Aircraft Platoon
2x Armoured 7/2 (3.7cm)
110

Light Panzerspah Platoon
1x Sd Kfz 223 (radio)
2x Sd Kfz 222
110

1910

Spare 90 points will net me either an extra Panzer IV or a Heavy Platoon with 1 MG42 section. In the past I have erred on the side of moar tanks and used the extra panzer.

This is about as well balanced a list as I can make with models available. A third panzergrenadier platoon is a possibility with the loss of a unit of tanks, and would be better on the defence, but I would lose out a bit on counter-attack and general offense.
Panzerwerfers are solid gold and worth their weight in gold and fire PURE GOLD all the time. Actually they are a distraction at best but can provide the ever-handy smoke barrage and pin stuff real good. I haven't used them much against dug-in trained infantry, but this is a role I think they could cover in a pinch. Tried it against veteran rated Brits in foxholes, who generally laugh at your pathetic attempts to range in.

The PaK40's are good all-rounders, only really losing out against IS-2s and the like, but a good ambush against massed medium tanks is their main goal.
Light recon make passable contesting units but I've yet to test them in their specialist role of Eyes And Ears'ing stuff.
Armoured 3.7's make me happy inside. I realise now that quad 2cm's fit more with panzergrenadiers but even so, I like the more dakka-y guns.

I'll have to post a few photos up of the company as it stands, just need to spam a lightbox together...

Any ideas to make this better?

I know you give up some firepower but can't you convert the Stugs and perhpas the PaK40s into something liike Jagdpanthers or Tigers to give you some protection against the JS2 and the like?

I'm intrigued that you don't have a heavy platoon.

I've always felt lehr benefit from the extra 3 bases for assaulting.

So at 2K I'd think of lehr + HMG'S on top.

I know you give up some firepower but can't you convert the Stugs and perhpas the PaK40s into something liike Jagdpanthers or Tigers to give you some protection against the JS2 and the like?

JS-2s.... those are my only real sore spot at the moment (at least until my opponent starts using T-34 flamethrowers again) and I've learned to use the density of firepower against the remainder of their army. Also, retreating before the heavy tanks and luring them into side-armour territory is not an unfeasible task. As I'm currently working out of Grey Wolf I don't have access to jagdpanthers but tigers are a possibility. Hilariously, a unit of pak40s dug in is probably more survivable against JS-2 guns than tigers are, and only have 1 point less of AT.

I've always felt lehr benefit from the extra 3 bases for assaulting.

So at 2K I'd think of lehr + HMG'S on top.

Two things. This is just a vanilla gpz panzergren list. And do you mean the three extra bases directly from the heavy platoon, for assaulting, or the fabled old skool 10-base platoons of Villers-Bocage Lehr?
I've always coveted a FULL heavy platoon, and I suppose if I had to knock down the tank platoons to get hold of some tigers, then adding a cheapo heavy platoon would keep me at 8 platoons overall. However, as for utility; on the defense, attached to panzergren units, they probably wouldn't see much use, as they either give away your GtG when firing at infantry (which it's rare for me to be attacked by) or they're facing down a wall of armour . On the attack, their only real use would be for pinning stuff prior to the assault, and granted, the mortars of the heavy pltn could do the job, but we've got panzerwerfers for that. Added to the fact the basic guys get 3 dice each for shooting anyroad. Indeed, combat attaching them and the panzerschreck team to a platoon would give me a nice 10-base unit to assault with but unlike soviets I don't need to be hit 10 times to be pinned and the +5 save of the gun teams might be a liability there. In fact in that case I would probably consider a third panzergren platoon first.

I often wonder, having so many tanks, if bringing the list as a panzerkompanie instead would add some kind of benefit. Recon, AA, and artillery options are all the same, panzerpioneers could make an appearance...

The Lehr list has an integral three extra bases in the platoon (tank hunter teams) so when you assault you get an extra 3 teams which can assault.

The use I find of the attached HMG's on the offense is bullet catchers (both the transports on the way in and when moving dismounted) and can always be left behind once moved up for covering fire.

The other advantage on defense about attaching them out so spreading out your HMG's, also just because they shot, it doesn't mean the other teams loose their gone to ground (rulebook pg90)

I'd go for 2 things:

First some really big AT guns, tigers are good, panthers even better. Perhaps change PzIVs and StuGs for either one.

Secondly, some StuHs to dig up enemy infantry.

Those are my advices.

 Reaver83 wrote:
The Lehr list has an integral three extra bases in the platoon (tank hunter teams) so when you assault you get an extra 3 teams which can assault.

The use I find of the attached HMG's on the offense is bullet catchers (both the transports on the way in and when moving dismounted) and can always be left behind once moved up for covering fire.

The other advantage on defense about attaching them out so spreading out your HMG's, also just because they shot, it doesn't mean the other teams loose their gone to ground (rulebook pg90)

This..... Very little will not be pinned by a pair of MG42's going like the clappers, four of them is almost immoral, this is before defensive fire from your your own platoon is added in. Grenadiers dug in are a b***ard to shift, SS is even worse but luckily they have smaller numbers. Stopping assaulting units get the assault in is critical, being dug in is the other key.

I love LEHR, but most players with Mechanised or Armoured forces will avoid your infantry because it is so Prickly, so you end up with expensive infantry riding in their transports which attract lots of fire from AA, lighter guns and artillery and soon your boys are burning in the back of their Hanomags. Panzer Grens are good all round, and you get lots of options they are 60pts cheaper per platoon than Lehr. MARDER III M's have a nasty AT12 gun and are cheap at 255 for 4 of them, you can then spend the saving on Tigers or Panthers to keep those JS-2 on the back foot.

Your list is all round great, have you considered taking a pair of Cheap RAD-8's for RECCE and then you can afford other things. I've used the V3 Flames of War Generic lists.

In the latest update for Lehr and 2.Panzerdivision they changed the lehr platoons so they only have the one tank hunter team as an option. I do actually have the models for the old style platoons but I assume I would have to run the updated version if I wanted to play Lehr.

Whilst I agree that not much stands up to mg42's infantry-wise, I feel the points could be better spent as my main expectation is to fight large T-34 platoons. In this case, panthers probably trump tigers when fighting soviets. Against Brits/Yanks, tigers are preferred.
As to the GtG question when the HMG's fire, truth that the other teams do not lose their GtG but the enemy can use the (now easier to hit) HMG teams as their target and this carries on throughout the platoon. Kinda like when PIAT or panzerschreck teams dive out of cover to take a potshot at a tank... it gives away the rest of the teams.
Mwnciboo, are two 8-RADS cheaper than three 222's which are only 110pts (and have the same gun)?

The Lehr list from Panzers to the Meuse is when Lehr fought at the bulge, your more than allowed to represent them in Normandy with the list from Earth and Steel.

The other option for anti tank is the Panzer IV/70, gun of a panther of a PZ4 tank (slow etc) cheap though!

Just spread the HMG's max command distance from the rest of the platoon - should keep them safe from enemy fire

I've got two Rad-8s for 80pts in the forces book....

Yeah good points guys, shame I lost my old villers-bocage pdf...
Panzer IV/70s are like the dream tank... kind of noodles me that I can't get them in vanilla grey wolf panzergrenadiers, or have access to tank hunters (gazes longingly at marders gathering dust)

A few pics of the force with added Heavy Platoon.
Sacked off the lightbox idea in favour of putting everything on the shelf and holding a desk lamp over my head...
Infantry are in the process of becoming brown jacket/green pants of the panzergrenadiers with the vehicles in some kinda whitewash eastern front scheme. Up til now it's been drybrush all the way but I can smell a spray can coming on. Not only will it save time but also maybe the tanks won't look quite so gak.

Should be playing a 2k game vs Soviets in a couple of days. With the extra HMG's buffing the unit size for one platoon, I should be able to hold onto objectives quite well (if I play against tankovy battalion) and assault to some degree if against infantry. Just need to remember to make good use of all those smoke templates!

Good luck! I like the list (assuming it is the one you are using) although I would rather have some 10.5 or 15cm towed guns in place of armored rocket launchers.
That's just personal preference, though... I like big artillery guns!

Believe it or not, if I dropped those extra HMG's I could afford to run 15cm howitzers, however it's too big of a draw to use their stupendous firepower when really I need them to smoke on stuff. Perhaps I will put them in another list when I grab some mortar halftracks also.

I'm not sure if I'm late to add comments to your list but...

I'd drop the Pak40s. They're really good but their static. You wanna move with Gepanzerte Panzergrenadiers and choose your fight. I would go for some cheaper Marders and even like one Tiger 1E.

It might be just personal opinion, but I like the Gepanzerte Mortar Platoons over Armored Rockets for smoking stuff.

I'm not sure if I'm late to add comments to your list but...

I'd drop the Pak40s. They're really good but their static. You wanna move with Gepanzerte Panzergrenadiers and choose your fight. I would go for some cheaper Marders and even like one Tiger 1E.

It might be just personal opinion, but I like the Gepanzerte Mortar Platoons over Armored Rockets for smoking stuff.

It's not too late at all, bro. I should be having a game tomorrow but the list refinement is ongoing.

I had a look at building a list out of the V3 forces book on easyarmy, unfortunately the options are rather limited and whilst I can take marders in that version (unlike in grey wolf) I miss out on the correct AA halftracks and rocket launchers and actually run out of models before getting to 2000 points :( (this is without the pak40's). Good ideas, though. I don't mind the pak40s being static; I like to have a shooty support unit sitting in the backfield in case other platoons need to withdraw to a safer area.
For now I will be using the original list + HMGs but what do people think of these possible changes--

Dropping HMGS and rockets for 15cm guns?
Panthers instead of pzIV's and stugs?
Consolidating AA and AT assets into one units (flak 36's)?
Fun stuff like gpz cannon platoons or armoured flamethrowers?

 Exhumed wrote:

For now I will be using the original list + HMGs but what do people think of these possible changes--

Dropping HMGS and rockets for 15cm guns?
Panthers instead of pzIV's and stugs?
Consolidating AA and AT assets into one units (flak 36's)?
Fun stuff like gpz cannon platoons or armoured flamethrowers?

I'd keep the HMG and armored rockets. Personally, I have success breaking assaults up with those, if on defense. If you have the panthers, I think they can solve your AT problems, and you wouldnt even need the pak40s. (and they're mobile). Your paying for panthers though, in the couple books I have, theyre like double the cost of pz Iv and stuGs. Maybe drop any gimmic stuff (gpz cannon or flamethrowers) the AT unit, and find a mix of armor like a few panthers and stuGs? or even those Marders.

Its hard to get into point costs and lists, I don't have access to my books just now.

Played a game today versus my friends Soviet Guards Strelovky (Infantry) Battalion with lots of fortifications. (Actually lego trenchworks and 8" strips of paper with a squiggly line drawn on representing barbed wire entanglements)

Safe to say I got roundly beaten being unable to effectively drive the enemy infantry out of their trenches or even kill any to any reasonable degree. We played a pincer mission where the defender has two objectives and his reserves come on from the long table edges (He defends the short edge).
No reserves arrived til turn 5 but by then I was pretty much out of the game.

A few lessons learned-

Take my own advice, which I usually give when I am the defender; Sit 15" away and blast them with everything for two turns until the reserves start coming on. I moved around too much when I ought to have been giving it full ROF.
Early on, using panzerwerfers to actually shoot stuff instead of dropping smoke would have been a better idea. I didn't reckon with how few enemy teams I would kill off with the conventional units.
Barbed wire is a nuisance and probably worth clearing out instead of trying to squeeze round. In that case, covering smoke would be useful. I kind of did a bit of both and failed altogether.
Facing two layers of trenches with 20-odd soviet teams in there is daunting until you realise your opponent put the gun teams in the front line so the rear rifle/mg teams can't get defensive fire. Had I noticed this, I could have planned my attack better.

Anyroads, here's a new list that incorporates some suggestions from the forum (thanks guys) and has a few random bits just for lulz.


2k Gepanzerte Panzergrenadier Kompanie 7th March 2013



HQ- Command Section
65

COMBAT PLATOONS

Gpz PnzrGrn Platoon
1x Command Team with Faust
6x MG Team
1x sd Kfz 251/10 (3.7cm)
3x sd Kfz 251/1
230

Gpz PnzrGrn Platoon
1x Command Team with Faust
1x sd Kfz 251/10 (3.7cm)
3x sd Kfz 251/1
6x MG Team
230


WEAPONS PLATOONS

Gepanzerte Panzerpioneer Platoon
1x Command Pioneer Team with Faust
4x Pioneer MG Team
2x Flamethrower Team
1x Pioneer Supply Maultier
305

Gepanzerte Mortar Platoon
1x Command Team
1x sd Kfz 251/1
4x sd Kfz 251/2 (8cm)
2x Observer
2x Kubelwagen
175

DIVISIONAL SUPPORT

Schwere Panzer Platoon
1x Command Tiger
1x Tiger
430

Light Panzerspah Platoon
1x Sd Kfz 223 (radio)
2x Sd Kfz 222
110

Motorised Heavy Artillery Battery
1x Command Team
1x Staff Team
4x 15cm sFH18 Howitzer
2x Observer
2x Kubelwagen
310


Sporadic Air Support
Hs 129B
115

1970

I still need to buy another box of Hanomags to get the extra ones need for the mortars and pioneers, though I have the upgrade set from PSC already as you may have noticed looking very carefully at the pictures.
I thought about putting another unit of tanks in there but two tigers will probably be enough. To make up the points I took some upgrades and some air support. The Hs is a decent all-rounder, not meant for any specific role, but is an extra unit I can use to pin stuff down.
I have 30 points spare which might go on two thirds of a panzerschreck team for the HQ.
Thoughts?

Updated for many and varied mistakes...

Hey, Sorry to hear you had a rough game. Gepanzerte Panzergrenadiers are like that. Did you keep HMG in your list?

I think, looking at your new list, you may have a little much artillery now. I'd consider dropping the Gepanzerte Mortar Platoon, if you really want the heavy artillery, and adding in a Gepanzerte Heavy Platoon with the HMGs. The Half Tracks have HMGs too. Also, the Heavy Platoon has an option for adding a mortar section. So, if you decide to run mortars you can run 2 here for smoke.

I can't comment on Air Support. I don't run it.

The other version of the Hs129 has a frankly ridiculous gun which scraps JS-2's left and right, but is no good against entrenched mans. With air, Axis air especially, you're essentially paying for an attack that may not even come on during the game. My luck's not been bad with it, though, but that's from fairly limited usage anyway.

Yes I did use the HMG's during that game but I put them in the second line of halftracks so they didn't see much more than a couple of turns afoot.

As for the mortars, 2 HMG sections and a mortar section in a heavy platoon is more expensive and I'd be surprised if I could effectively smoke enemy units to screen my own from view, with only one smoke template.
It's worth a go, but I suppose the artillery, air support, flamethrowers and masses of halftrack MG's would do a fine job of pinning stuff anyway so perhaps more HMG's would only serve to buff the squads for assault. I don't mind the idea of the mortars being a dedicated smoke bombardment unit; in my army, there is much honour in it