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In your opinion....

If loyalist Primarchs ever return ( maybe one day when GW decide to move the fluff forward ) do you think that High Lords of Terra would gave the power villingly or would they resist them?

resist for sure. I believe many SM chapters and inquisitiorial sects would to. They wouldnt be very open to the idea that Primarchs are back. Primarchs would run the place much better and be able to handle the imperium a lot better than the High Lords though.

Wouldn't mind seeing Corax curbstomp some High Lords when they declare him a heretic or something.

I'm not sure they'd be able to resist them. The primarchs are the "sons" of the Emperor. If they went against them I'm sure the masses would overthrow the High Lords before the Primarchs would have to raise a finger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Justicar Cliesthenes wrote:
resist for sure. I believe many SM chapters and inquisitiorial sects would to. They wouldnt be very open to the idea that Primarchs are back. Primarchs would run the place much better and be able to handle the imperium a lot better than the High Lords though.

why do you think the Space Marines would resist the return of the primarchs? Most chapters actually have a lot of fluff about waiting for them to return.

Depends on which Prmarchs.

Some could muster a lot more support than others. The IG would still likely be loyal to the High Lords, so I don't know if the Primarchs, could actually overthrow the High Lords.

They would resist for sure though, no question.

Well, except for the SM and Maybe Gks, no one knows of the Primarchs, so they would appear and claim to be son of the Emperor, and be shot for it, starting a war which the HLoT would win (They've got untold billions of Regiments of IG against one lone Primarch, what'd you think would happen) but then again, the SM's might believe him enough to stand by his side.
Who Knows?

Most wont believe that a primarch has returned. The Inquisition would be very interested in what most of them have been doing in the warp for that long (Corax, Russ and where ever Vulkan is). The factions of the Imperium are all very independent of each other to prevent rebellions. So making them all bow down to one man, who probably prefers his own legion, might be a bit difficult. Just look at the history of civil war because of these questions.

A primarch appearing now might be the worst possible moment. The Imperium is already having difficulties with the 13th Black Crusade (and if the fluff in the Chaos codex is right the final one). A civil war about a returned primarch might just be the final push to break the Imperium at this moment.

 Justicar Cliesthenes wrote:
Primarchs would run the place much better and be able to handle the imperium a lot better than the High Lords though.

That's highly debatable. Especially if you look at the latest series of Horus Heresy books (as opposed to the lore where they were merely legends before), they don't really look very competent.

The HLoT would resist and quite possibly win.

IG units greatly outnumber their SM counterparts. If the primarchs returned they would have to convince a LOT of different SM chapters to flock to their banner. If the primarchs then moved against Terra there would certainly be another civil war between them.

In the meantime, the HLoT have a pretty firm grip on the populace through the Ecclesiarchy. They could certainly declare the primarchs and any following chapters as traitors. This would mean the IG would rise up against them. Given that there is only about 1m marines in existence and untold billions of IG I'd say that the primarchs would have to move extremely quickly against Terra to try and take it.

Of course, we've seen this before with Horus. You'd be hard pressed to get all of the primarchs on board with taking over Terra. Even then, you'd be hard pressed to get the 1,000 odd SM chapters to follow them. Some would simply sit on the sideline and wait, others would join, but still others would oppose them.

And, finally, even if they were stupid enough to try, there is a galaxy full of aliens and certainly numerous planetary governors that would take full advantage of the resulting chaos...

The Primarchs, with the exception of Papa Smurf, have never been the political leaders of the Imperium. They therefore have no legal right whatsoever to claim any kind of political leadership within the Imperium.

 Melissia wrote:

 Justicar Cliesthenes wrote:
Primarchs would run the place much better and be able to handle the imperium a lot better than the High Lords though.

That's highly debatable. Especially if you look at the latest series of Horus Heresy books (as opposed to the lore where they were merely legends before), they don't really look very competent.

You are absolutely right, they don't look the part. A few might work out such as Guilliman, Dorn or Vulkan. However, Vulkan's disappearance doesn't bode well for his ability to truly govern. If he's going to turn tail and hide in the face of real danger then, well, I wouldn't want him trying to stand against the IoM's foes. Dorn was a bit too black and white. I'm not sure he has the wherewithal to understand that a lot of grey exists.

This leaves Guilliman. He set up his own empire which ran quite well. If anyone could take up the mantle to govern the Imperium, it would be him. Regardless, I wouldn't see the HLoT simply rolling over and allowing him to do that.

 KingDeath wrote:
The Primarchs, with the exception of Papa Smurf, have never been the political leaders of the Imperium. They therefore have no legal right whatsoever to claim any kind of political leadership within the Imperium.

Also id like to add that them doing so would be very stupid. Their experience is much better spend on active duty on a large crusade or around the Eye. Having him/them crunching numbers like most of the high lords are just basicly doing is a waste of skill/talent.

It depends on a number of factors.
Which Primarch it is coming back, and the circumstances of their return. There was a huge discussion on the Lion coming back a few weeks ago, here's what I had to say then.

I think it would make perfect sense for the loyalists at Cadia to rally around the Lion. This charismatic giant at the head of at least a full chapter of Astartes, even the stupidest soldier is going to put two and two together and realise that this is a legendary Primarch of old. All other SM's in the region would also figure it out pretty quickly and realise that this must be a good thing, for the time being anyway. Also add to the fact that Abaddon is at Cadia. He'll hear about the Lion before anyone on Terra, and when people then see that every Chaos attack is aimed at him, all claims as to who he really is will soon be clarified.

By the time the High Lords get news that the Lion has returned, he'll either be dead or he'll have too big a following to be denied a place within the Imperium, probably as the newest Warmaster, which he always wanted.

But, it'll never happen, we can hope all we want. Personally, I want Guilliman to stand up from his throne, but even though it's possible (Don't get me started on how, it's all to do with stasis just slowing time so that it appears to have stopped (look it up) giving him time to heal.) it won't happen either. We may aswell just ask for Horus to come back.

Primarchs could gather a following under the right circumstances, but if the High Lords got wind of their return before they had the masses behind them, it would end very badly.
And even if they DID get a following up, it would be pretty likely to end in a civil war.

And you were refuted piece by piece.

Seriously, it's fan-wankery, nothing more.

The Lion was incapable of such feats-- not that he didn't do them, he wasn't ABLE to do then, he wasn't skilled enough, charismatic enough, competent enough, to accomplish what you think he could accomplish-- during the Horus heresy when he was at his apex of power and influence, and when the Imperium was at its youngest, newly formed and most easily influenced by a charismatic person.

There's no reason to think that he would do any better against the legion of entrenched interests that is the modern Imperium, which has grown to mistrust charismatic leaders like the Lion simply as a point of policy.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
It depends on a number of factors.
Which Primarch it is coming back, and the circumstances of their return. There was a huge discussion on the Lion coming back a few weeks ago, here's what I had to say then.

I think it would make perfect sense for the loyalists at Cadia to rally around the Lion. This charismatic giant at the head of at least a full chapter of Astartes, even the stupidest soldier is going to put two and two together and realise that this is a legendary Primarch of old. All other SM's in the region would also figure it out pretty quickly and realise that this must be a good thing, for the time being anyway. Also add to the fact that Abaddon is at Cadia. He'll hear about the Lion before anyone on Terra, and when people then see that every Chaos attack is aimed at him, all claims as to who he really is will soon be clarified.

By the time the High Lords get news that the Lion has returned, he'll either be dead or he'll have too big a following to be denied a place within the Imperium, probably as the newest Warmaster, which he always wanted.

But, it'll never happen, we can hope all we want. Personally, I want Guilliman to stand up from his throne, but even though it's possible (Don't get me started on how, it's all to do with stasis just slowing time so that it appears to have stopped (look it up) giving him time to heal.) it won't happen either. We may aswell just ask for Horus to come back.

Primarchs could gather a following under the right circumstances, but if the High Lords got wind of their return before they had the masses behind them, it would end very badly.
And even if they DID get a following up, it would be pretty likely to end in a civil war.

I smell a Nemesis in 40k coming up

They'd fight them tooth and claw.

Precious few Primarchs managed to carve out and rule small kingdoms for a short period of time, with only Smurfy Smurf really building a small interplanetary empire as such. Its hard to believe that many of them, if any at all, would be capable of administering the entire empire if they were to return. They were designed to win wars, not to govern humanity. Not to mention the fact that the HLoT would be incredibly unlikely to cede their vast power to anyone, Primarch or not.

^ my point also....But there are many people who think that Empy would give them IoM managment role after great crusade is over.....Well I do not....I think they were disposable after they played their role (basic concept of grimdark)...

0% chance.

If the primarchs return, it's going to be a repeat of the horus heresy where there are some primarchs vs. the government on Terra.

Things are a lot different than when they left.

 Melissia wrote:
There's no reason to think that he would do any better against the legion of entrenched interests that is the modern Imperium, which has grown to mistrust charismatic leaders like the Lion simply as a point of policy.

The Lion is not a charismatic leader, he is an unfeeling sociopath.

Anyway, of the loyalist Primarchs...

Leman Russ might not even try to seize power, despite his Legion's reputation for being wild and anti-authority. He was, for better or worse, the Emperor's loyal lap dog, who did his master's bidding without question. The Emperor wanted humanity to run itself, and I think Russ would be content simply rejoining his Legion in crusades against the Imperium's enemies.

Lion El'Jonson on the other hand would undoubtedly seek to grab power, though he'd do so covertly, I think, not openly. It is hard to say how successful he might be.

The Khan is too wild, from what little I know of him, to successfully seize power.

Dorn is too much of a latently psychotic cornball to effectively do anything. Also he's almost certainly dead.

Sanguinius... Now he could do it. He had a measure of all that made the Emperor great, with none of what made him a fuckface. He is charismatic enough, intelligent enough, could instigate a psychic push here and there if need be, I can't see the Imperium rising up against a returned Sanguinius. Only he's like, super friggin' dead. Or not, who knows, with the Sanguinor?

Ferrus Manus is a soldier, and knows it. Like Russ, he'd be wholly content merely stomping out the foes of the Emperor. Also he's dead.

Guilliman... Now he could do it. He is a supremely skilled governor and manager of resources, well-versed in just about everything you need to gain power and run an empire, and above all, is a highly regarded figure in the Imperium, far more than the High Lords are. A military campaign against him would be futile.

Vulkan? feth if I know, who the hell knows anything about that dude's actual personality?

Corvus Corax... Lol, look at that emo, self-indulgent melon-fether, someone get this whiny girlyman a tissue. But keep him the feth away from the handlebars of the Imperium, please.

Russ never wanted a seat of power, he has his 13th company of werewolves, and roams butt naked trough warp (to even the odds with Khorne), hunting chaos scum ...Paradise for him....
Corax - to depressed to do anything (like me:-)
Khan..to wild, to furious...
Guiliy - ? Maybe...after Heresy he became empy nb 2....
Sanginius - dead and a mutant (just don't mention that ghost crap)
Ferrus lacks the head for the job
Dorn lacks some body parts (torso, head, arms)
Vulkan - he would fight for the common man and a working class :-) big thorne in HloT finger




Lion - This is the biggest enigma...Wants power, lacks the charisma...Damn I wish to see him rise....

All of it? No. Would they give him/them a place on the council? Yes. If multiple Primarchs, then the most able among them.

Lion would not be a good enemy for the High Lords. Considering the secrecy veiling the I Legion and it's operations, the High Lords probably wouldn't be aware of his return until the point where they have no choice but to give him a place on the council. Like a Black Crusade tearing through the Cadian Gate, all the way through the Segmentum Obscurus and Solar to knock on the gates of Titan, Mars, and Terra itself. Only for the tide to turn when Lion and his legion smash into the Chaos lines from the rear, taking command of the disarrayed and scattered Imperial forces around Segmentum Obscurus and Solar and grinding Abaddon and his armies to paste before the Imperial throne world. He'd be hailed a hero across the Imperial heartland, and the High Lords would have no choice but to recognize him and give him what he always wanted: the rank and title of Warmaster. Or would they be so stupid as to risk another Plague of Unbelief, this time across the Imperial heartland itself? They're politicians, not morons. They'd realize that some handles over a Primarch are better than none, with the Warmaster technically under the Council of Terra and all.

Remember that Malcador the Sigilite was very well-regarded by the Emperor, and is the founder of His Ordos of the Holy Inquisition. Returning Loyalists Primarchs know full well the power and authority vested in that august body. They also know full well that they have neither the right nor the authority to change the way the Inquisition operates, for that was mandated by the Emperor, Himself, through Malcador.

 Psienesis wrote:
Remember that Malcador the Sigilite was very well-regarded by the Emperor, and is the founder of His Ordos of the Holy Inquisition. Returning Loyalists Primarchs know full well the power and authority vested in that august body. They also know full well that they have neither the right nor the authority to change the way the Inquisition operates, for that was mandated by the Emperor, Himself, through Malcador.

The Inquisition is untouchable. The Ecclesiarchy...not so much. Corax or Lion would probably find a way to make it self-destruct from the inside out, all the while looking like they weren't involved at all.

Ailaros wrote:Things are a lot different than when they left.

Hmmh. Are they really?

The surviving Primarchs already ceded power to the Senatorum after the Emperor died. It's not like Emps fell over and suddenly everybody disappeared. Guilliman was a High Lord himself for some time before he kinda got himself injured in some huge battle to have his body end up where it sits now.
The High Lords managed to assert their dominance back then, and they have even more power now. The Primarchs are quite killable, and the Imperium has more troops, more tanks, more ships, and more influence over the people.

Ultimately, I'm sure that any surviving Primarch would be capable of causing some havoc (provided he manages to convince at least some of who he claims to be), but - not counting writer fiat - has little chance to actually achieve anything without the consent of the High Lords. And I would think that most of them are smarter than just throwing a fit out of wounded pride, threatening all the Emperor has achieved by making the Imperium more vulnerable to attacks from the outside.

Admiral Valerian wrote:The Ecclesiarchy...not so much. Corax or Lion would probably find a way to make it self-destruct from the inside out, all the while looking like they weren't involved at all.

How's that supposed to work?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Lion is not a charismatic leader, he is an unfeeling sociopath.

Unfortunately, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

That said, he's not competent enough for the job, even if he might think he is.

 Melissia wrote:
And you were refuted piece by piece.

Seriously, it's fan-wankery, nothing more.

The Lion was incapable of such feats-- not that he didn't do them, he wasn't ABLE to do then, he wasn't skilled enough, charismatic enough, competent enough, to accomplish what you think he could accomplish-- during the Horus heresy when he was at his apex of power and influence, and when the Imperium was at its youngest, newly formed and most easily influenced by a charismatic person.

There's no reason to think that he would do any better against the legion of entrenched interests that is the modern Imperium, which has grown to mistrust charismatic leaders like the Lion simply as a point of policy.

And a few people agreed. Even being adamant that a Primarch couldn't gain power is fan-wankery, just from another point of view.
I don't think most Primarchs should be put in charge of the Imperium, it would end badly. But under the right circumstances, they could gain this position of power and gather enough followng to challenge the High Lords, you refuse to believe that these born leaders could lead a group of the men they were designed to have unwavering loyalty from.

The point is, I don't think a Primarch returning gives them any right to rule, and the High Lords wouldn't willingly hand it over, but the Primarchs could not be denied a place within the Imperium.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:
But under the right circumstances, they could gain this position of power and gather enough followng to challenge the High Lords, you refuse to believe that these born leaders could lead a group of the men they were designed to have unwavering loyalty from.

I have no problem seeing them getting Astartes loyalty-- at least a portion of them.

But that's irrelevant to the question at hand. Astartes have very little military strength and even less political strength.

LITTLE MILITARY/POLITICAL IMPORTANCE?
Calgar alone can summon thirty regs of IG,at least 100 successor chapters (more according to fluff) and god knows how many tanks.
And he is one of the most important people in the imperium, with political power equal to a HLoT.

ScarletPheonix wrote:
LITTLE MILITARY/POLITICAL IMPORTANCE?
Calgar alone can summon thirty regs of IG,at least 100 successor chapters (more according to fluff) and god knows how many tanks.
And he is one of the most important people in the imperium, with political power equal to a HLoT.

Aside from the fact that Calgar is the exception and not the rule, Calgar is unlikely to support the Lion ruling the Imperium. At best, he would likely remain neutral. The Lion is not his primarch and he would have no reason to risk his empire and all of his successor chapters to support someone like the Lion.

Furthermore, lol, only 30 regiments? Merely thirty? Please, hive worlds send more men than that to the Imperial Guard every year just to pay their tithes. Many, many times more Imperial Guard are recruited every year than it would take to wipe out the entirety of the forces that Calgar commands, and indeed, the entirety of the Astartes as a whole.

Thirty regiments wouldn't likely even add up to a hundred thousand men. Hive Worlds tithe millions, if not billions, every year. The war-torn world known as Tranch, by itself, eats up a quarter million to a million soldiers every year (what with it basically being World War I: The Planet). And it's just a side show in a relatively unimportant subsector in the Segmenta Obscuris. The Imperium is vast. The Astartes are tiny even by modern standards.