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Why are so many people scared of terminators they die so fast and there not that great
(note this is from my experience so if this isnt the case then soryy

depends on the terminators.

normal ones with just the 5++ are still decent, as they ahve a good save, okay firepower, and can still pack a punch in combat. Yes they die to massed plasma which is more prevalent, but they are still okay units.

assault terminators with TH/SS are excellent, one of the best units in the game point for point. They beat most things in combat, and are very hard to kill.

Other things like deathwing, and wolf guard terminators can also be good, depending on how they are run.

It's really in the meta atm.

With the advance of 6th edition a lot of AP3 weapons popped up, suddenly making MEQs pretty squishy. In comparrisson AP2 weapons got scarcer (with Energie weapons being ap3 and all that), which lead to an increase in Termies.

Now that termies are everywhere, we see massed ap2 fire everywhere (most tac squads won't leave the house without plasma or melta weapons anymore).

Let's see where the meta-roulette will be going next...

I have to agree. It is a similar feeling that people have of landraiders. Because there are only specific tools to deal with them effectively, so it forces you to bring those. Personally (as a DE player), terminators don't frighten me at all. I have units that can kill them in close combat, and I have enough splinter fire to make them roll 1's, or use disentegrator cannons on them (which are ap2).

For myself as a Tau player, 24 shots from a Fire Warrior squad against a squad of 5 Terminators and their 2+ save, I seem to be lucky if I take down 1, maybe 2, of them a turn. I am still working on building up the heavier end of my army to field more of my low AP weapons, so at the moment I can only hope volume = kills.

Its because compared to 5th edition where all power weapons ignored armor saves terminators got much harder to kill in melee. The only way to get AP2 in melee is to either be a MC or go at inititive 1.

Terminators arn't any harder to kill at range than they used to be.



Terminators have always died to volume of fire, not AP2 weaponry. AP2 weapons are actually counter productive against TH/SS terminators because the save reduction isn't enough to justify the increased points you are paying for it.

To kill a terminator, you need to force an average of 6 armor saves.


So with Bolters you need to get 12 hits, which means 18 shots. So an average of 18 bolter shots will kill 1 terminator. The same stats apply to Fire Warriors due to the BS decrease and strength increase canceling each other out.

Termies are the bane of my ork boyz. There isnt many AP2 weapons in their arsenal. A PK on a warboss in a mob with a Nob with a PK works but attacking at I1 aint that fun :(

So I guess the main strategy is forcing saves. A mob of 20 shoota boyz can get 40 shoots off hitting on 5+ and wounding on 4+. Anyone got any math on that? Not that it matters I dont have a mob of 20 shoota boyz only 13. Is that a lucky number for greeskins? I'll find out this weekend

People overestimate them. That's where most of it comes from. They're good, but they're not deathstars in and of themselves. A squad of five shouldn't be feared all that much more than a properly kitted plasma mechvet squad, or a tac squad in a drop pod, or what haves.

That and terminators are wonkily luck-dependent against people who don't bring weapons to handle them. I have, on many more than one occasion, seen a terminator completely refuse to roll a 1 over the course of MANY armor saves, and that one terminator does something to win the game. I saw it just last week, actually, a 1-wound-left GK grand master survived two whole turns of necron shooting everything it had left at it and passing a few dozen armor saves, contesting an objective, and giving the GK player the win. My personal record is shooting enough firepower at a single terminator to kill, on average, 7.5 terminators, and having that bastard still survive until the end of the game.

Good luck helps terminators more than other stuff, it feels, and if you've been on the wrong end of that kind of luck, it will probably leave a scar in your mind.

The other weak there was a space wolf player that lead his SWs with a Terminator with a storm sheild. Only 1 terminator. And It took three rounds of concentrated fire from DA and Tau to bring down 2 of them. The third unit with a termie got locked in CC with another terminator and challenges kept them swinging until the end of the game.

I've always felt that Terminators are hit or miss. With a good string of luck they can tear through units, or with a single bad roll you can lose a squad.

I love the terminator models a lot. But I just can't justify them in lists anymore. I roll a lot of ones it feels like so they die fast for me. I'd rather have 10meq than 5 terminators of any variety.

Although I have seen some silly rolls with terminators making every single save and soaking an entire armies worth of shooting. Which makes them tempting, i guess just not that tempting for me.

DA termies are kinda bringing back the old "kill you and your loved ones" feel of the termies, but only in conjunction with RW teleport homers and 10 man squads. Termies have always been shock troops, in fact I'd wager the psych out factor of the termies is higher than their actual on field stats, people know what happens when the Termies get to your lines and this leads to them getting tunnel vision

Terminators suck. Show me a list that has won anything in 6th that extensively used Terminators....


That was a trick question because those lists don't exist. Noobs fear Terminators. With DA/SW MEQs being as cheap as they are, it makes much more sense to field many MEQs than to field small amounts of TEQs. A squad of 5 TEQs becomes completely neutered once they lose 2-3 models and at that point aren't even particularly fearsome in combat. Their shooting leaves much to be desired and guess what, 40k favors the shooting phase.

LValx wrote:
Terminators suck. Show me a list that has won anything in 6th that extensively used Terminators....


That was a trick question because those lists don't exist. Noobs fear Terminators. With DA/SW MEQs being as cheap as they are, it makes much more sense to field many MEQs than to field small amounts of TEQs. A squad of 5 TEQs becomes completely neutered once they lose 2-3 models and at that point aren't even particularly fearsome in combat. Their shooting leaves much to be desired and guess what, 40k favors the shooting phase.

So if termies had good shooting and more than 5 guys they wouldn't suck? Because I've got a DA codex that says I can field 10 termies with 8 SBs 2 Heavy/Assault weapons and the turn I show up I'm firing all weapons TL. Oh and let's not forget I've got Split Fire every turn so I can pop transports with a heavy weapon then shoot the crunchies inside with the rest of the squad. All of this without having to sacrifice CC ability

LValx wrote:Show me a list that has won anything in 6th that extensively used Terminators.

here ya go.

That said, for that one game I lost, I've faced down terminators on like four more and generally crushed them handily.

Turns out Paladins really don't like meltaguns or lascannons.

 Ailaros wrote:

LValx wrote:Show me a list that has won anything in 6th that extensively used Terminators.

here ya go.

That said, for that one game I lost, I've faced down terminators on like four more and generally crushed them handily.

Turns out Paladins really don't like meltaguns or lascannons.

15 player, local tournaments don't matter. When I said anything I should have been more specific: GT-sized events. Terminators don't work in 6th. Point for point they are too pricey when compared with things such as Guardsmen, Ork Boys, Grey Hunters, DA Tacticals, Wraiths (35 points for a faster unit 3++ and 2w), Nurgle Spawn (36 for 3w and T6 as well as Cav).

They are simply inefficient. The thing that makes it even worse is that 6th is predominantly an infantry based game, so anti-infantry fire-power is very high. What do TEQs fear most? Plasma? No, they fear bolters, lasguns or anything else that forces them to roll lots of dice. As I said before, it isn't difficult to kill 2-3 TEQs from a squad, thus all but neutering their impact on the game due to their terrible shooting and low amount of attacks. Don't even get me started on their lack of speed and mobility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

andystache wrote:

LValx wrote:
Terminators suck. Show me a list that has won anything in 6th that extensively used Terminators....


That was a trick question because those lists don't exist. Noobs fear Terminators. With DA/SW MEQs being as cheap as they are, it makes much more sense to field many MEQs than to field small amounts of TEQs. A squad of 5 TEQs becomes completely neutered once they lose 2-3 models and at that point aren't even particularly fearsome in combat. Their shooting leaves much to be desired and guess what, 40k favors the shooting phase.

So if termies had good shooting and more than 5 guys they wouldn't suck? Because I've got a DA codex that says I can field 10 termies with 8 SBs 2 Heavy/Assault weapons and the turn I show up I'm firing all weapons TL. Oh and let's not forget I've got Split Fire every turn so I can pop transports with a heavy weapon then shoot the crunchies inside with the rest of the squad. All of this without having to sacrifice CC ability

And how much do those 10 TEQs with HWs cost? I bet I can field 50+ Guardsmen for that easily and I bet my Guardsmen will win that fight... Guess what most MEQ players now run competitively? 50 Man guard blobs led by SM characters. Orks will ruin you, massed MEQs will ruin you. It isn't very difficult for a well built 6th army to kill 15+ Terminators (im going by averages here) in one turn. The squad you are describing shoots slightly better than a TAC squad whilst costing 2x+ as much. DW especially suck because they got bumped up in cost and have to field expensive characters (one of which is terrible) to become troops.

LValx wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

LValx wrote:Show me a list that has won anything in 6th that extensively used Terminators.

here ya go.

That said, for that one game I lost, I've faced down terminators on like four more and generally crushed them handily.

Turns out Paladins really don't like meltaguns or lascannons.

15 player, local tournaments don't matter. When I said anything I should have been more specific: GT-sized events. Terminators don't work in 6th. Point for point they are too pricey when compared with things such as Guardsmen, Ork Boys, Grey Hunters, DA Tacticals, Wraiths (35 points for a faster unit 3++ and 2w), Nurgle Spawn (36 for 3w and T6 as well as Cav).

They are simply inefficient. The thing that makes it even worse is that 6th is predominantly an infantry based game, so anti-infantry fire-power is very high. What do TEQs fear most? Plasma? No, they fear bolters, lasguns or anything else that forces them to roll lots of dice. As I said before, it isn't difficult to kill 2-3 TEQs from a squad, thus all but neutering their impact on the game due to their terrible shooting and low amount of attacks. Don't even get me started on their lack of speed and mobility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

andystache wrote:

LValx wrote:
Terminators suck. Show me a list that has won anything in 6th that extensively used Terminators....


That was a trick question because those lists don't exist. Noobs fear Terminators. With DA/SW MEQs being as cheap as they are, it makes much more sense to field many MEQs than to field small amounts of TEQs. A squad of 5 TEQs becomes completely neutered once they lose 2-3 models and at that point aren't even particularly fearsome in combat. Their shooting leaves much to be desired and guess what, 40k favors the shooting phase.

So if termies had good shooting and more than 5 guys they wouldn't suck? Because I've got a DA codex that says I can field 10 termies with 8 SBs 2 Heavy/Assault weapons and the turn I show up I'm firing all weapons TL. Oh and let's not forget I've got Split Fire every turn so I can pop transports with a heavy weapon then shoot the crunchies inside with the rest of the squad. All of this without having to sacrifice CC ability

And how much do those 10 TEQs with HWs cost? I bet I can field 50+ Guardsmen for that easily and I bet my Guardsmen will win that fight... Guess what most MEQ players now run competitively? 50 Man guard blobs led by SM characters. Orks will ruin you, massed MEQs will ruin you. It isn't very difficult for a well built 6th army to kill 15+ Terminators (im going by averages here) in one turn. The squad you are describing shoots slightly better than a TAC squad whilst costing 2x+ as much. DW especially suck because they got bumped up in cost and have to field expensive characters (one of which is terrible) to become troops.

I don't know how to reply to this other than by saying you're wrong. You're just wrong. Someone presents you with a winning list fielding 15 termies and you're only reply it oh that wasn't big enough. How much do you know about that tourney? I don't know anything so that DA list could have taken out a GT winning list in the tourney, but we won't know. 10 DW termies may be expensive, but for those point I can pick when they come in, if I take Belial I decide when and where they come in. Your 50 man guard squad can pump out a lot of firepower, but when my DW deep strikes 1" away from that blob, opens up with, for example, 18 SB shots and 8 Assault Cannon shots, all TL and 4 SBs having the chance for Precise Shots that blob is in trouble. Granted there's more than enough dakka in a DA list that my termies are really going for the side/rear on your vehicle or your HQ and leaving the cruchies to the rest of the army

That guard blob wont much fear you, you cant sweep it and if you assault it you will be bogged down for the majority of the game.

Small, local events are fairly meaningless. Terminators don't work, which is why you don't see them being fielded in the better lists popping up in 6th edition.

You can continue to think your overpriced 10 man TEQ squad is particularly dangerous but a good list is going to smile when they see that you've invested that many points into such a one-dimensional unit.

I forgot to mention one of the biggest problems for TEQs: You can't sweep. That is huge. It means that against any horde you are at an automatic disadvantage.

Look at Kopachs SW/IG army, Gonyo's GK/IG army, tell me you think your 10 man squad would do diddly squat? If you honestly think that that is a good unit and a smart way to invest your points, then sorry buddy, I can't do nuthin' for ya.

bazzdaka wrote:
Termies are the bane of my ork boyz. There isnt many AP2 weapons in their arsenal. A PK on a warboss in a mob with a Nob with a PK works but attacking at I1 aint that fun :(

So I guess the main strategy is forcing saves. A mob of 20 shoota boyz can get 40 shoots off hitting on 5+ and wounding on 4+. Anyone got any math on that? Not that it matters I dont have a mob of 20 shoota boyz only 13. Is that a lucky number for greeskins? I'll find out this weekend

To be honest, they shouldn't be a problem, because, like Grey Templar said, it's all about volume of attacks to force those rolls. Orks get a ton of attacks, whether it be in shooting or, preferably combat. The amount of shots/hits you're getting should deal with them. You always have the PK to mop up as well anyway.

Let's get to that maths.

Like GT said, you need to force six saves to kill a termie, on average. Shootas wound of 4+, i.e. half will wound, therefore you need 12 wounds. Orks hit on 5+, i.e. a third will hit, therefore you need 36 hits. But of course, shootas have two shots each, therefore you only need 18 Boyz shooting at a termie squad to kill, on average, one a turn. It sounds a lot, but Shoota Boyz are only 6 points, so that's only 108 points of orks. Compare that to GT's bolter example: A marine, correct me if I'm wrong, costs around 15 points. 18 shots = 9 bolters = 9 marines, which equals 135 points. AND, Marines can only put out that volume of fire at 12", whereas Orks can do that at 18". Therefore, maths has proven that, in this case, Orks > Marines

A bit of an off-topic rant towards the end there, but hopefully you get the point.

 The Shadow wrote:

bazzdaka wrote:
Termies are the bane of my ork boyz. There isnt many AP2 weapons in their arsenal. A PK on a warboss in a mob with a Nob with a PK works but attacking at I1 aint that fun :(

So I guess the main strategy is forcing saves. A mob of 20 shoota boyz can get 40 shoots off hitting on 5+ and wounding on 4+. Anyone got any math on that? Not that it matters I dont have a mob of 20 shoota boyz only 13. Is that a lucky number for greeskins? I'll find out this weekend

To be honest, they shouldn't be a problem, because, like Grey Templar said, it's all about volume of attacks to force those rolls. Orks get a ton of attacks, whether it be in shooting or, preferably combat. The amount of shots/hits you're getting should deal with them. You always have the PK to mop up as well anyway.

Let's get to that maths.

Like GT said, you need to force six saves to kill a termie, on average. Shootas wound of 4+, i.e. half will wound, therefore you need 12 wounds. Orks hit on 5+, i.e. a third will hit, therefore you need 36 hits. But of course, shootas have two shots each, therefore you only need 18 Boyz shooting at a termie squad to kill, on average, one a turn. It sounds a lot, but Shoota Boyz are only 6 points, so that's only 108 points of orks. Compare that to GT's bolter example: A marine, correct me if I'm wrong, costs around 15 points. 18 shots = 9 bolters = 9 marines, which equals 135 points. AND, Marines can only put out that volume of fire at 12", whereas Orks can do that at 18". Therefore, maths has proven that, in this case, Orks > Marines

A bit of an off-topic rant towards the end there, but hopefully you get the point.

Yeah, I was a bit confused by what he said as well... 30 Shoota Boyz cost less than 5 Terminators and between shooting and combat should completely obliterate that squad.. SIGH

Being Guard, I never had a problem with them. When im forcing dozens of saves from las-guns (and that's without firing my Plasmas and other weapons) I tend to kill them pretty easily.

Also to the OP, I don't think anyone is actually scared of terminators. Now, if I have a unit of 10 TH/SS termies suddenly in my gun-line, I might have a tiny bit of fear until I shoot them to hell with no problem.

LValx wrote:
That guard blob wont much fear you, you cant sweep it and if you assault it you will be bogged down for the majority of the game.

Small, local events are fairly meaningless. Terminators don't work, which is why you don't see them being fielded in the better lists popping up in 6th edition.

You can continue to think your overpriced 10 man TEQ squad is particularly dangerous but a good list is going to smile when they see that you've invested that many points into such a one-dimensional unit.

I forgot to mention one of the biggest problems for TEQs: You can't sweep. That is huge. It means that against any horde you are at an automatic disadvantage.

Look at Kopachs SW/IG army, Gonyo's GK/IG army, tell me you think your 10 man squad would do diddly squat? If you honestly think that that is a good unit and a smart way to invest your points, then sorry buddy, I can't do nuthin' for ya.

Against Gonyo's army list (the only one I could find since you neglected to provide links) my 10 man DW squad would start forward in my deployment zone and out shoot his list. He's only got 24" and if he gets close yeah you're in trouble, but if you keep outside of his 24" range there's little he can do against you. But andystache you're termies aren't mobile you'll say. They don't have to be. The glories of a synergistic army are that each unit works with the rest. I'd deploy my termies as bait that can't be ignored. Equipped with 2 CML's I have double his range and the option to use frag missiles to take chunks out of those IG squads.

andystache wrote:

LValx wrote:
That guard blob wont much fear you, you cant sweep it and if you assault it you will be bogged down for the majority of the game.

Small, local events are fairly meaningless. Terminators don't work, which is why you don't see them being fielded in the better lists popping up in 6th edition.

You can continue to think your overpriced 10 man TEQ squad is particularly dangerous but a good list is going to smile when they see that you've invested that many points into such a one-dimensional unit.

I forgot to mention one of the biggest problems for TEQs: You can't sweep. That is huge. It means that against any horde you are at an automatic disadvantage.

Look at Kopachs SW/IG army, Gonyo's GK/IG army, tell me you think your 10 man squad would do diddly squat? If you honestly think that that is a good unit and a smart way to invest your points, then sorry buddy, I can't do nuthin' for ya.

Against Gonyo's army list (the only one I could find since you neglected to provide links) my 10 man DW squad would start forward in my deployment zone and out shoot his list. He's only got 24" and if he gets close yeah you're in trouble, but if you keep outside of his 24" range there's little he can do against you. But andystache you're termies aren't mobile you'll say. They don't have to be. The glories of a synergistic army are that each unit works with the rest. I'd deploy my termies as bait that can't be ignored. Equipped with 2 CML's I have double his range and the option to use frag missiles to take chunks out of those IG squads.

If you were familiar with competitive 40k, I wouldn't need to post links, you'd already be familiar with the lists. Sorry I made that assumption. You are delirious if you think your 2CMLs would do any damage.. Have you heard of 2" coherency? You don't even need to spread out fully to guarantee that you only hit 1-2 models. You really wouldn't do any damage. You are also failing to consider that most tournament scenarios place objectives in the middle meaning you cannot just gunline and win, at some point you will have to move to midfield at which point you promptly get blasted off the table.
The fact that you said you would just keep outside of 24", thus wasting all those points for a mere 2 missile shots is very telling by itself. What a terrible, terrible use of a unit that will most likely be taking up over 25% of your total list composition.

LValx wrote:

andystache wrote:

LValx wrote:
That guard blob wont much fear you, you cant sweep it and if you assault it you will be bogged down for the majority of the game.

Small, local events are fairly meaningless. Terminators don't work, which is why you don't see them being fielded in the better lists popping up in 6th edition.

You can continue to think your overpriced 10 man TEQ squad is particularly dangerous but a good list is going to smile when they see that you've invested that many points into such a one-dimensional unit.

I forgot to mention one of the biggest problems for TEQs: You can't sweep. That is huge. It means that against any horde you are at an automatic disadvantage.

Look at Kopachs SW/IG army, Gonyo's GK/IG army, tell me you think your 10 man squad would do diddly squat? If you honestly think that that is a good unit and a smart way to invest your points, then sorry buddy, I can't do nuthin' for ya.

Against Gonyo's army list (the only one I could find since you neglected to provide links) my 10 man DW squad would start forward in my deployment zone and out shoot his list. He's only got 24" and if he gets close yeah you're in trouble, but if you keep outside of his 24" range there's little he can do against you. But andystache you're termies aren't mobile you'll say. They don't have to be. The glories of a synergistic army are that each unit works with the rest. I'd deploy my termies as bait that can't be ignored. Equipped with 2 CML's I have double his range and the option to use frag missiles to take chunks out of those IG squads.

If you were familiar with competitive 40k, I wouldn't need to post links, you'd already be familiar with the lists. Sorry I made that assumption. You are delirious if you think your 2CMLs would do any damage.. Have you heard of 2" coherency? You don't even need to spread out fully to guarantee that you only hit 1-2 models. You really wouldn't do any damage. You are also failing to consider that most tournament scenarios place objectives in the middle meaning you cannot just gunline and win, at some point you will have to move to midfield at which point you promptly get blasted off the table.
The fact that you said you would just keep outside of 24", thus wasting all those points for a mere 2 missile shots is very telling by itself. What a terrible, terrible use of a unit that will most likely be taking up over 25% of your total list composition.

What part of bait unit don't you understand? Against that list the termies are there in the middle specifically to draw in as much as they can. I've written them off for dead at deployment, but he must deal with them, even that list will have trouble dealing with 5+ termies moving up the gut. To do damage to that list I'm going to count on my bikes, my dread(s), my Typhoons, maybe even my Tac squads. Last I checked tournament or not it only matter who has the objective when the game ends, so yes I would have to move. I also have 4 turns before I have to move maybe more. If I'm running Azreal I have bikers that are scoring units, how far can a bike move in 1 turn? Why 30" more than enough to make a late grab or contest. Gonyo's list has no weapons over 24" so either he can sit on his objectives and let me shoot him, or he can come at me and still walk through my fire to get to range. I've been using 10 man squads since you asserted that anything less than that is pointless, but I have no problem running a 5 man squad, again because I dictate when they arrive, and generally don't have to worry about scatter through either Belial or RW bikes. To me termies aren't units that win games, they're a unit that let's the rest of my army win games.

Has it ever occurred to you that net lists dominate tourney's because everyone looks for the "winning" list and rolls with it rather than developing a list that suits their play style and army? This line from Rules Lawyers about Gonyo's Da Boyz win describes why his list works for him, "Strong generals and a wide variety of lists found their way to the top despite a complete lack of comp." A good general will beat an "uber net list" in most cases barring hot/cold hand on the dice.

andystache wrote:

Has it ever occurred to you that net lists dominate tourney's because everyone looks for the "winning" list and rolls with it rather than developing a list that suits their play style and army? This line from Rules Lawyers about Gonyo's Da Boyz win describes why his list works for him, "Strong generals and a wide variety of lists found their way to the top despite a complete lack of comp." A good general will beat an "uber net list" in most cases barring hot/cold hand on the dice.

You have it the wrong way around: Net lists don't win tournaments, tournament-winning lists become net lists.

@ stacheboy. The reason you would lose that matchup is because you have poured a huge amount of points in an inefficient unit whereas that GK/IG list hasn't done the same, all of its units are efficient. Not to mention it will out number you by a WIDE margin. I would also safely assume that it will have a larger scoring presence than you, giving it the leg up in the majority of missions.

And as Walrus said, good lists win and then become net-lists. People gravitate towards certain builds because there are certain strategies and units that stand above others. This is the case in almost any game (video games, hell even sports).

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

andystache wrote:

Has it ever occurred to you that net lists dominate tourney's because everyone looks for the "winning" list and rolls with it rather than developing a list that suits their play style and army? This line from Rules Lawyers about Gonyo's Da Boyz win describes why his list works for him, "Strong generals and a wide variety of lists found their way to the top despite a complete lack of comp." A good general will beat an "uber net list" in most cases barring hot/cold hand on the dice.

You have it the wrong way around: Net lists don't win tournaments, tournament-winning lists become net lists.

And then the copy cats flood tourney's with them, but no understanding of how the list was created. I've been playing since 3rd and I know for certain I could not run Gonyo's list, I'm not patient enough to deal with that many models on the table and one's that are so crunchy. You and LValx can say whatever you want, but you've never played me so you don't know how I run my army. You can't even say how Gonyo would respond to facing my list, would he fall for a termie bait, would he ignore them and focus on the fire base, you don't know any of this. All you two know is that he won a GT without termies, nothing more nothing less.

I'd love the opportunity to throw dice against him, I think I can beat that list even with a so called "sub-optimal" list, because it's my list. I've built it to account for my playing style, my preferences, and the amount of redundancy that I want. Gonyo obviously rates termie armor as worthwhile, why else would he put his second Inquistor in termie armor? Since I wasn't at the GT I can only go with what Rules Lawyers write up tells me, Gonyo overwhelmed the opposition, his list is designed to soak firepower until it gets close enough to take care of the opposing army.

LValx wrote:
People gravitate towards certain builds because there are certain strategies and units that stand above others. This is the case in almost any game (video games, hell even sports).

Which is not to say that the absense of Terminator-centric lists in the top of tournaments is in itself proof that Terminator lists suck. They certainly have weaknesses, but matchups and similar also play their part.

Edit:

andystache wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

andystache wrote:

Has it ever occurred to you that net lists dominate tourney's because everyone looks for the "winning" list and rolls with it rather than developing a list that suits their play style and army? This line from Rules Lawyers about Gonyo's Da Boyz win describes why his list works for him, "Strong generals and a wide variety of lists found their way to the top despite a complete lack of comp." A good general will beat an "uber net list" in most cases barring hot/cold hand on the dice.

You have it the wrong way around: Net lists don't win tournaments, tournament-winning lists become net lists.

And then the copy cats flood tourney's with them, but no understanding of how the list was created. I've been playing since 3rd and I know for certain I could not run Gonyo's list, I'm not patient enough to deal with that many models on the table and one's that are so crunchy. You and LValx can say whatever you want, but you've never played me so you don't know how I run my army. You can't even say how Gonyo would respond to facing my list, would he fall for a termie bait, would he ignore them and focus on the fire base, you don't know any of this. All you two know is that he won a GT without termies, nothing more nothing less.

I'd love the opportunity to throw dice against him, I think I can beat that list even with a so called "sub-optimal" list, because it's my list. I've built it to account for my playing style, my preferences, and the amount of redundancy that I want. Gonyo obviously rates termie armor as worthwhile, why else would he put his second Inquistor in termie armor? Since I wasn't at the GT I can only go with what Rules Lawyers write up tells me, Gonyo overwhelmed the opposition, his list is designed to soak firepower until it gets close enough to take care of the opposing army.

I have no idea what your point is. First you agree with me, only to passively attack me in the next paragraph. Make up your mind?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

LValx wrote:
People gravitate towards certain builds because there are certain strategies and units that stand above others. This is the case in almost any game (video games, hell even sports).

Which is not to say that the absense of Terminator-centric lists in the top of tournaments is in itself proof that Terminator lists suck. They certainly have weaknesses, but matchups and similar also play their part.

Edit:

andystache wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

andystache wrote:

Has it ever occurred to you that net lists dominate tourney's because everyone looks for the "winning" list and rolls with it rather than developing a list that suits their play style and army? This line from Rules Lawyers about Gonyo's Da Boyz win describes why his list works for him, "Strong generals and a wide variety of lists found their way to the top despite a complete lack of comp." A good general will beat an "uber net list" in most cases barring hot/cold hand on the dice.

You have it the wrong way around: Net lists don't win tournaments, tournament-winning lists become net lists.

And then the copy cats flood tourney's with them, but no understanding of how the list was created. I've been playing since 3rd and I know for certain I could not run Gonyo's list, I'm not patient enough to deal with that many models on the table and one's that are so crunchy. You and LValx can say whatever you want, but you've never played me so you don't know how I run my army. You can't even say how Gonyo would respond to facing my list, would he fall for a termie bait, would he ignore them and focus on the fire base, you don't know any of this. All you two know is that he won a GT without termies, nothing more nothing less.

I'd love the opportunity to throw dice against him, I think I can beat that list even with a so called "sub-optimal" list, because it's my list. I've built it to account for my playing style, my preferences, and the amount of redundancy that I want. Gonyo obviously rates termie armor as worthwhile, why else would he put his second Inquistor in termie armor? Since I wasn't at the GT I can only go with what Rules Lawyers write up tells me, Gonyo overwhelmed the opposition, his list is designed to soak firepower until it gets close enough to take care of the opposing army.

I have no idea what your point is. First you agree with me, only to passively attack me in the next paragraph. Make up your mind?

Apologizes that was not intended as an attack, my exasperation with Dakka's inability to consider alternate list builds is beginning to get the better of me. The opening was to agree with you then take it a step further. Tourney winners become net-lists which then flood tournies, which they lose because the player doesn't understand the list and that GT's winner becomes the next net list, lather, rinse, repeat. My second paragraph is simply my position, when I post my TAC list for the local GT in April I know people will say it is sub-optimal because that's the only thing people have been saying about the DA since our codex dropped. I really think we agree, but I've been having to defend my, apparently wild theory, that a list built to a player's personal style will out perform a GT winning list for that person. Again apologizes for coming across as antagonistic, it's too easy to think that everyone is snapping at you

Hmmm.... "What's the deal with termies?"

Well, for one they put my Howling Banshees out of job in 6th Ed.

Do you know how embarrassing it is standing in the unemployment line on an Eldar Craftworld? Your whole species depends on your work, and you can't keep it quite and just say "I got laid off"... no no... they are all psychic in here Eldar-land. They know you got canned because you just suck at your job now...

I can think of alternative lists just fine. Unfortunately terminators are not good in this edition. I don't have some sort of deep-seated hatred towards them, my first army was Deathwing and I played BTs in 5th with lots of termies. The problem is in 6th they simply do not work, IMO, at least. Prove me wrong and maybe ill change my tune.