Switch Theme:

Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Poll
Do you agree?
I agree completely
I agree somewhat
I completly disagree

View results
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion





 Peregrine wrote:


Nonsense. Some people might see it that way, but the intent of the generic minimally-dressed female character....


...Is not up for interpretation. You are no more qualified to speak definitively about the intents of a fictional character than I am. Perhaps the original artist was a raging sexist and only wanted to draw women with 1/3 or less of their body covered. Contrastingly he/she many have been genuinely interested in providing women with a positive role mode and wanted to show some other side of that... who knows? You're not more in the artist's head than I am.

The "intent" is irrelevant. All that remains are facts. The FACT is, that she is a scantily clad animated character on a comic book (which was marketed and sold predominantly to males).

This is yet another example of my previous complaint. Stop imposing your own reasons into the statements (or artist works) of other people. They are what they are. If you think it's sexist, fine, think that. But you're way out of line to make an accusation about the creator's intent.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/01 14:38:39


 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




WW is actually a good example of why you can't just judge a character by the square footage of there outfit. Even though she wears less total clothing then a t-shirt, she dosen't look like a pin up.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

If WW is a role model for women and their bodies do not match hers in terms of sexiness and fitness generally, is the image of WW oppressing them in the sense of telling them they are not good enough?

Similarly, if I'm supposed to be like a Catachan -- well, I can tell you my arms have never and will never look like that.

Maybe the issue is that for whatever reason I'm okay and many other men are okay with not looking like a Catachan while (some) women are very disappointed with and feel like failures because they don't look like WW or Lelith.

Can we really disagree with the fact that women encounter more pressure to be attractive than men? I mean, when was the last time any of the guys here spent more than ten minutes (and even that is a crazy amount of time) on their hair? How many of us have worried about putting make up on before going to work or school?

I'm not saying that curling irons and masscare are the chains of womanhood and the ladies should burn their bras. Just, isn't it obvious why us guys don't have the same complaints about beefcake that ladies seem to have about cheescake?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/01 16:17:38


   
Made in nl
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






North of your position

I've spent more then 10 minutes on my hair.
I was getting it dry because me mom told me too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/01 17:11:04


   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 thenoobbomb wrote:
It was getting it dry because me mom told me too.
And not because you wanted, nay, needed to look pretty that day?

   
Made in ca
Lieutenant Colonel






the 40k universe as a GW creation is not mysonogyst...

there is just a lack of female models, fluff wize females are just as screwed as everyone else in the IoM, no more, no less

I think some of the elf types actually have matriarchies too

that the female models there are can be over sexualized at times, is no worse then all the male models being over sexualized..

putting huge unattainable exaggerated muscles on a male model is just as sexist as putting unattainable exaggerated breasts on a female model.

in RL men are just a sexually objectified/oppressed as women...

its just with different methods,

men dont need to be skinny belimick types with surgically enhanced breasts, like some women feel they need to be

men are supposed to be rich, tall, muscle bound steroid freaks who never show emotion, and are disposable lives compared to women.



of course, neither gender actually HAS to crumple to those pressures to be the "real" man or woman

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/01 16:37:21


 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




 Manchu wrote:
If WW is a role model for women and their bodies do not match hers in terms of sexiness and fitness generally, is the image of WW oppressing them in the sense of telling them they are not good enough?

Similarly, if I'm supposed to be like a Catachan -- well, I can tell you my arms have never and will never look like that.

Maybe the issue is that for whatever reason I'm okay and many other men are okay with not looking like a Catachan while (some) women are very disappointed with and feel like failures because they don't look like WW or Lelith.

Can we really disagree with the fact that women encounter more pressure to be attractive than men? I mean, when was the last time any of the guys here spent more than ten minutes (and even that is a crazy amount of time) on their hair? How many of us have worried about putting make up on before going to work or school?

I'm not saying that curling irons and masscare are the chains of womanhood and the ladies should burn their bras. Just, isn't it obvious why us guys don't have the same complaints about beefcake that ladies seem to have about cheescake?


Something to keep in mind, is that there is a difference between a buff man made to appeal to women and a buff man made to appeal to men.

If you exposed guys to nothing but male pinups deigned to appeal to women, then the guys would be uncomfortable. Men aren't immune the effect of exploitative pinups. They just get exposed to them a lot less. Try sending a guy to a male scrip club and see how he feels in that kind of environment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/01 16:38:59


 
   
Made in ca
Lieutenant Colonel






women, get hit on by men,

men, get hit on by men

hmmmmmmmm, maybe men are actually the downtrodden now...

 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion





 Manchu wrote:
If WW is a role model for women and their bodies do not match hers in terms of sexiness and fitness generally, is the image of WW oppressing them in the sense of telling them they are not good enough?

Similarly, if I'm supposed to be like a Catachan -- well, I can tell you my arms have never and will never look like that.

Maybe the issue is that for whatever reason I'm okay and many other men are okay with not looking like a Catachan while (some) women are very disappointed with and feel like failures because they don't look like WW or Lelith.

Can we really disagree with the fact that women encounter more pressure to be attractive than men? I mean, when was the last time any of the guys here spent more than ten minutes (and even that is a crazy amount of time) on their hair? How many of us have worried about putting make up on before going to work or school?

I'm not saying that curling irons and masscare are the chains of womanhood and the ladies should burn their bras. Just, isn't it obvious why us guys don't have the same complaints about beefcake that ladies seem to have about cheescake?


I agree that men an women have different standards. But that just goes back to my original argument that we are not truly equal.

Physically I am a tall man, tall even by male standards. I'm 6'4" and right around 200 pounds (91kg). Being a man of my size I have a pretty healthy metabolism and require more food than other people might. I also have to pay a premium to get "long" jeans or slacks, and sometimes shirts. I am held to live a little differently than other men, and I should certainly assume women as well.

When I say that women are not equal to men, I don't mean that they are better or worse. I mean that they are not equal. They are not the same. It is illogical to think that two beings as radically different as human males and human females should be held to the same standards. Or be represented equally in every facet of human life. The most "equality" a rational person should expect is to be treated with respect by his or her peers, and to not be judged based solely on gender/color/faith/etc. anything after that is expecting too much. I try my best not to look down at anyone based on their ethnic background, gender, or religion, and I sure as hell don't think that the world owes me anything for being a White, Christian Male.

So why expect GW to alter their works to give women (a much smaller chunk of their audience) an equal representation in their game. At this point, it's just illogical. Especially given that GW has not been particularly disrespectful towards women. They aren't actively keeping them from playing, and they aren't creating a fictional world where women are in any way inferior or given unfair treatment (at least in context). We've already established that in 40k it is possible for women to be Inquisitors, Planetary Governors, and other ranks that are basically high as can be achieved in that world. They clearly have an "equal" opportunity to excel. In universe, they are equal enough that I think we can agree...

But meta-game, as it concerns the models, it ceases to be a matter of equality. Unlike Wonder Woman, I would be truly worried if any RL females looked at 40k females as role models. An inquisitor is a perfectly fun work of fiction in the context of the game. They are even kind of badass. But that character were transposed into our world, they'd be evil melon-fethers... If they were role models to anyone I'd be deeply concerned.

   
Made in au
Tough Tyrant Guard







The Sisters of Battle have never sat super well with me. On the one hand, they're pretty awesome. On the other hand, they come off to me as "girls can't be space marines, but here, have some special girl-marines who aren't as good." I think they're cool and I'd be sorely tempted to collect them if it wasn't like a thousand bucks for a small army, but that's always bothered me.

Anyway, more cool female characters please. I loved Lieutenant Mira in the recent Space Marine game because she was a female character who was competent and, to my incredible surprise and delight, didn't require rescuing by the male protagonist, not even once.

I'm pretty easy to please, I think. They don't need boob plate or heels. I mean, geez, look at Eldrad. If you'd told me Eldrad was a woman, that would be fine. I just want female characters to exist and the assumption that male is the default to go away. It's weird, for instance, how in the Eldar codex it tells you that all the Eldar troops can be male or female, but then explicitly describes all of them as male other than Howling Banshees, which it describes as female (even though, AFAIK, there's no reason there can't be male Howling Banshees).
   
Made in nl
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






North of your position

 Manchu wrote:
 thenoobbomb wrote:
It was getting it dry because me mom told me too.
And not because you wanted, nay, needed to look pretty that day?


My mom thought so.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Why don't female models accurately represent women? Because GW probably didn't make a good enough profit to justify the production. That's all there is to it I'm guessing. Sure FW can make a profit, but FW is also much more expensive. Really I can't understand the need to psychoanalyze every female character in every story. They're just people, some are strong, some are weak, some are good and others are bad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/01 17:36:35


 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

IT's hard to make a profit by not doing anything at all. Unless you're a politician.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

 Manchu wrote:
If WW is a role model for women and their bodies do not match hers in terms of sexiness and fitness generally, is the image of WW oppressing them in the sense of telling them they are not good enough?

Similarly, if I'm supposed to be like a Catachan -- well, I can tell you my arms have never and will never look like that.

Maybe the issue is that for whatever reason I'm okay and many other men are okay with not looking like a Catachan while (some) women are very disappointed with and feel like failures because they don't look like WW or Lelith.


Women are under more pressure to look good than men are (to an extent of course. As has been noted by many political analysts, Chris Christie would have a decent shot at becoming President if he wasn't like 350 pounds), however, not only is peer-pressure not gender-exclusive, but one can argue that women are more interested in comparing themselves to other women then men are interested in comparing themselves to other men. Not just some women, but many imo, are very disappointed with their bodies when they compare themselves to other women, especially regarding weight, but that doesn't stop 99% of the "America's Next Top Model" audience from being women, despite the fact that the body type of the women on that show represent like 1% of how most women on the planet look, lol. It's almost masochistic in a way. The large majority of women who watch the show look nothing like the women on the show, yet they anxiously hop onto the couch and watch it week after week. Most women look nothing like models in magazines, yet many of them go out of their way to read those magazines as much as they can.

And I'm going to out on limb and say that this particular problem isn't even something you can blame men on solely. The reason I say that is because the type of women that women compare themselves to the most are women that are rarely considered "extremely attractive" by male standards.

Your average model looks like this. Very skinny, no ass, no breasts, no hips.

Research of the type of porn men watch the most shows that, when they're fantasizing about women, their ideal women tend to look like this, and this. Wide hips, decent sized breasts, pretty thick all around. Hardly "the average woman", but closer to average than the first picture, imo.

So anyway, TL;DR: I'm of the opinion that while, yes, many women feel a sense of pressure and shame when they don't match the beauty of certain fictional characters and real-life models, that doesn't stop many, or even most of them, from finding those women very appealing, if not in an envious kind of way.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

It sounds like you are saying, the fact that they feel pressure doesn't keep them from feeling pressure.

Or you might be saying that they inflict the pressure on themselves? But it must be more nuanced than women waking up in the morning and saying "gee, my goal for today is to seek out images that decrease my self worth."

I mean, if that's what you believe women are doing, then what you are really saying about women is that they are psychologically unhealthy as a general matter.

   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Why the hell is this guy speaking for all women? I don't even do that and yet I'm a thousand times more qualified...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/01 20:24:17


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

To be fair, he's saying they speak for themselves by doing things like watching America's Top Model in huge numbers.

   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

 Manchu wrote:
To be fair, he's saying they speak for themselves by doing things like watching America's Top Model in huge numbers.
Does the fact that MASH's finale was the most watched episode of any show ever mean that people want to be a psychotic wreck like Pierce at the end of the series?

"Reality TV" is often watched more like watching a trainwreck (it's fascinating in the most vile ways), or because your'e invested in the characters and honestly want to see them succeed, such as people rooting for the contestants on Survivor.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/03/01 20:30:24


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

No excuse for dipping the proverbial toe into RT TV ever :(

Sorry, not really ontopic - just a pet hate.

Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

The difference is that we're talking about models. As the name implies, these women are held up as ideals that one should measure oneself against. His question seems to be, what makes women accept these body types as the models for their own?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/01 20:32:17


   
Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

what makes women accept these body types as the models for their own?


But do women accept these body types as the models for their own Manchu, nevermind the what?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/01 20:35:56


Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

 Ratius wrote:
what makes women accept these body types as the models for their own?
But do women accept these body types as the models for their own Manchu?
If they don't, then there is no problem. The argument here is that women are being excluded from certain sectors of society because the images of women that predominate in those sectors are offensive to women in the sense that they propagate impossible standards based on objectification. If a woman can look at a GW model, say the SoB slave girl from the DE range, and just have a laugh rather than feeling excluded or offended then ... again, there's no problem.

   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Amusingly, America's Top Model is having a Guy's edition. I wonder how that will turn out.

All in all it was fairly low in the ratings rankings, even if it was The CW's top show, so I really dunno what the point of this discussion is.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/03/01 20:42:26


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

That show is just an example of a huge variety of products and services that women encounter, to some extent voluntarily, where they compare their own bodies disfavorably to bodies that look nothing like theirs.

   
Made in ca
Lieutenant Colonel






men are under just as much pressure to conform to what sociaty thinks they should be like as women are,

women have unrealistic physiques as the norm, and so do men...

all the male models are just as over skinny with perfect abs as the female models, except they also have to be really muscular on top of this.

not to mention men are expected to weild a lot of money/power in addition to the looks

and if men complain about social pressures, they are ignored, ridiculed, and told its nothing, to man up, and realize that only women have these kinds of pressures in a way that matters.


really though, both men and women, only submit to the social pressures they choose to submit to,

both sides have different "perfect images" that are both grossly unattainable for 99% of us, and that 1% that does usually needs unhealthy things (like annorexia or steroids) to achieve that image.


I always find it ironic, like in fight club when brad pitt gets on the bus with edward norton and sees a calvin kline model ad with perfect abs and remarks "pfft, is that what a man should look like?"

30 seconds later mr pitt is fighting with his shirt off showing even of even MORE defined pretty boy abs...





 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el




 Ratius wrote:
what makes women accept these body types as the models for their own?


But do women accept these body types as the models for their own Manchu, nevermind the what?


They are the kinds of models used on women magazines and in aids directed at women. When an advertiser wants to offer up what they believe women want, it's this super thin super tall body type. I don't think this image matches up with reality, but advertisers are evil.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

easysauce wrote:
men are under just as much pressure to conform to what sociaty thinks they should be like as women are
Maybe so but that misses the point. Our social expectations of men regarding appearance are not nearly as severe as our expectations of women, at least measured in the amount of thought and effort it takes on the part of the individuals attempting to meet those expectations.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/01 20:49:33


   
Made in us
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




Inside Yvraine

 Manchu wrote:
It sounds like you are saying, the fact that they feel pressure doesn't keep them from feeling pressure.

Or you might be saying that they inflict the pressure on themselves? But it must be more nuanced than women waking up in the morning and saying "gee, my goal for today is to seek out images that decrease my self worth."

I mean, if that's what you believe women are doing, then what you are really saying about women is that they are psychologically unhealthy as a general matter.


it is more nuanced than that, but yeah, I think women judge themselves, and other women, very harshly, and very unfairly.

It's certainly unhealthy, imo.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/01 20:56:04


 
   
Made in ie
Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:The Sisters of Battle have never sat super well with me. On the one hand, they're pretty awesome. On the other hand, they come off to me as "girls can't be space marines, but here, have some special girl-marines who aren't as good."
I think that's primarily an issue with outsourced fiction and the fanbase. GW's own website wrote: "As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion."

Nominally weaker due to missing genetical augmentation, they possess the ability to temporarily push past what a Marine can do, thus in the grand scheme of things evening it out. And their equipment is the same, at least as per GW's books. Again, some non-GW books disagree.
It's just whenever you bring up that line quoted above you have a hundred Marine fans screaming out how GW was "wrong" writing that.

amudkipz wrote:Why don't female models accurately represent women? Because GW probably didn't make a good enough profit to justify the production.
Well, theoretically speaking, a miniature has to be produced to fill a specific role in an army's Codex - regardless of whether the mini is male or female. I'm not entirely sure how it works with plastics, but of the metal minis many are sculpted differently by default so that you end up with a squad that can have different poses etc.
I remember my first box of Space Marines all having "cloned" parts, however, so maybe the same applies to Cadians and GW just generally cheaped out on alternate molds. In that case, however, there was no reason why they could not have made one of the many "one-offs" a girl, such as the Sergeant, the Comm-Trooper, the Banner-bearer, the Commissar etc.

I think the thought just kinda didn't occur to them because the designers still see male as a default gender, much like I think it is in most movies or video games. People have to make a mental effort to remember women as potential options.

Manchu wrote:Maybe the issue is that for whatever reason I'm okay and many other men are okay with not looking like a Catachan while (some) women are very disappointed with and feel like failures because they don't look like WW or Lelith.
I think you may be on to something here, at least regarding the pressure. "Traditionally", men shall attain success and wealth, emit confidence and the ability to support whatever family they may raise - whereas women shall attain beauty, so as to be picked as brides by said men.

This has been shifting slowly in the past couple decades, especially since marriage is no longer regarded as a necessity, and women have started to join all sorts of careers and become successful and rich themselves.
You still have a notable bias in how the media portrays the gender, however. Do an experiment. Walk through your city of choice or watch some TV, and compare the amount of advertisement for beauty/health products showing slim, pretty girls compared to men of the same fashion.

It should be noted that, or at least this has been my impression, women who join traditionally male hobby communities tend to be somewhat less impressed by the media bias as they are already "breaking the rule", so to say, and thus may have less of a problem with somewhat skimpy characters as long as it still comes across as a fitting choice of fashion rather than portraying obvious sexism. Case in point -> Lelith.
At least that's what I picked up from various forums, talks, conventions etc. Of course, at the same time they are also more aware of the issue, leading to debates such as the ones in this thread.

Regarding Wonder Woman, I think that's an interesting topic. I for one have to admit that I agree with her appearance being primarily intended to cater to male readers, as that was (and probably still is) the primary audience for comic books in the western world. At the same time, the character is strong and independent. One could almost say that WW is some sort of "gender infiltrator", trying to subtly undermine a reader's opinion by first luring him with a skimpy outfit and then going "look what I can do!".
It's probably a silly theory, but that thought just popped up in my mind as I read people's impression of that character.
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

 Manchu wrote:
That show is just an example of a huge variety of products and services that women encounter, to some extent voluntarily, where they compare their own bodies disfavorably to bodies that look nothing like theirs.
And most of them aren't exactly very highly rated or ranked. Last year approximately a million people watched that particular show. Out of 315 million people in the USA total-- even if all of those were women (which I guarantee you is not the case), that's less than a single percent of all women in the USA.

Yeah, women are constantly subjected to unnatural beauty standards from a very early age, I won't deny that, but these sorts of things aren't really all that popular. Beauty contests are universally pretty low in the ratings rankings, for example. What IS popular are contests where people actually DO something.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/01 20:58:06


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Background
Go to: