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 Amaya wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Also its the geneseed that requires them to be male candidates, because its made from male prognitors. I dont really want to imagine what it could possibly do to a women (sadly Im thinking of a hermafrodite Emperor's Children marine).

Because made up science in a space fantasy setting makes sense. Right.

But they did try to have it make sense with the whole background of the Horus Heresy. Female Space Marines would require an Empress. Because if the Emperor could have created female primarchs, why didnt he do so? GW would just say that his dna would probably make for bad geneseed if tried on females (and for all we know it does, the emperor isnt exactly the standard human).

 Amaya wrote:

That's a really poor comparison. Batman's intellect and resourcefulness puts him on even footing with Superman and other heroes.

Just like Sister's faith and determination put them on even footing with the Marines. That was exactly my point. To me they're cooler that way. YMMW.

Crimson wrote:My main problem with female marines is that they would be conceptually too similar to Sisters of Battle. If SoB wouldn't exist, there would be a stronger case for female Astartes, but the do.

Agreed. There's nothing wrong with a faction being gender-exclusive if it is somehow balanced elsewhere and/or does not elicit the perception of a deliberate gender bias. Marines and Sisters have always co-existed and been on the same tier ever since the very first edition of 40k and that short blurb in the Rogue Trader rulebook.

Not everything needs to be mixed with everything, and in itself, gender can very well be as exclusive a trait as, say, armour colours or heraldry.

A unification of Male and Female Astartes will only result in awkward fan-fiction without actually improving perception towards the latter. I've seen enough Space Wolves fan art to hazard a guess at what people would want to see or imagine if it ever came to that.

I say keep them apart and make each faction badass in their own right.

Amaya wrote:are at best second rate Space Marines, and are only elite fighters because a male god empowers them

These two things are very debatable. GW themselves have mentioned them to be equals - no matter how much some fans or outsourced authors try to ignore this - and the Sisters' purity and Acts of Faith are a result of their willpower, not some sort of a psychic connection to the Emperor. In this case, religion is merely the vessel used to summon their strenghts. That's how psychology works, and there are studies of similar effects by high self-confidence and esprit-du-corps affecting participants in contemporary sports or the military.

Mr Morden wrote:Space Marine's female character - why do you asume she is rear echolon?

Some people just can't accept the role women played in a lot of conflicts throughout history. It'll go away in a couple generations.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Also its the geneseed that requires them to be male candidates, because its made from male prognitors. I dont really want to imagine what it could possibly do to a women (sadly Im thinking of a hermafrodite Emperor's Children marine).

Male and female siblings are closer genetically than two male neighbors.

Don't try to think that GW knows jack diddly gak about biology. They probably flunked high school biology, nevermind college.

 Crimson wrote:

 Amaya wrote:

That's a really poor comparison. Batman's intellect and resourcefulness puts him on even footing with Superman and other heroes.

Just like Sister's faith and determination put them on even footing with the Marines. That was exactly my point. To me they're cooler that way. YMMW.

They should be, but they've gotten the gak end of the stick. In the fluff, they're Batman, on TT they're more like Aqualad.
It also skews the argument that people don't want to play female minis. (Gee, these 10 year old figures that cost 4 times as much as the others and are terrible at just about everything don't sell well. Should we fix that? Nah nobody wants to play them because they're female.)

 Melissia wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Also its the geneseed that requires them to be male candidates, because its made from male prognitors. I dont really want to imagine what it could possibly do to a women (sadly Im thinking of a hermafrodite Emperor's Children marine).

Male and female siblings are closer genetically than two male neighbors.

Don't try to think that GW knows jack diddly gak about biology. They probably flunked high school biology, nevermind college.

But the fact is that they arent male neighbours, they are closely related. Primarchs being more like genetically altered clones of the Emperor almost. Then Space Marines from their Primarchs. While I do think female marines could exist (who knows what else he could have done), I was merely trying to point out the huge change to fluff they would have to make after all these years. Putting in at least 2 more female Primarchs (one for each side) and so forth, so basicly change the core of 40k concerning both loyalists and traitors. Its highly unlikely they will ever do that when they already have SoB.

Scientific reasoning isn't actually important, anyways. It's a fait accompli we've been presented with by the writers of the setting, similar to deuterium in boltgun rounds etc.

With some things it's just better not to think about. Or looking for an "excuse" that might make it less laughable - such as the Emperor intentionally excluding female compatibility out of fear that the Astartes might end up reproducing and replace normal humans. I picked that one up on dakka and it's by far the best idea I've heard to explain that stuff.

Personally I'd just say "it's cultural baggage that no one wants to go back on" and be done with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
But the fact is that they arent male neighbours, they are closely related.

So Space Marines are the result of giant incestuous families?

 Melissia wrote:
Personally I'd just say "it's cultural baggage that no one wants to go back on" and be done with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
But the fact is that they arent male neighbours, they are closely related.

So Space Marines are the result of giant incestuous families?

Well just look at the next sentence I wrote... We leave that to the slaaneshi thank you very much.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Also its the geneseed that requires them to be male candidates, because its made from male prognitors. I dont really want to imagine what it could possibly do to a women (sadly Im thinking of a hermafrodite Emperor's Children marine).

You can fly across space but you can't tweek a genetic implant to work with another set of chromosomes?

 Melissia wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
That's cool, I want to play them, where's their codex?

The same place that Lost and the Damned are.

Aye, and there were female space marines too. So what's the problem?

 mad_eddy_13 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Also its the geneseed that requires them to be male candidates, because its made from male prognitors. I dont really want to imagine what it could possibly do to a women (sadly Im thinking of a hermafrodite Emperor's Children marine).

You can fly across space but you can't tweek a genetic implant to work with another set of chromosomes?

They lost the tech to do that after the Heresy, mainly the Emperor was responsible, Bile is close though. So they would have to go all the way back to the Heresy and create new legions.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
That's cool, I want to play them, where's their codex?

The same place that Lost and the Damned are.

Aye, and there were female space marines too.

That statement is wrong on many, many levels, the biggest one being that the Lost and the Damned and Frateris Templar actually exist in the lore.

(That's a huge difference, in case you can't tell.)

 Lynata wrote:
Scientific reasoning isn't actually important, anyways. It's a fait accompli we've been presented with by the writers of the setting, similar to deuterium in boltgun rounds etc.

With some things it's just better not to think about. Or looking for an "excuse" that might make it less laughable - such as the Emperor intentionally excluding female compatibility out of fear that the Astartes might end up reproducing and replace normal humans. I picked that one up on dakka and it's by far the best idea I've heard to explain that stuff.

Maybe he was just a sexist.

 Melissia wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
That's cool, I want to play them, where's their codex?

The same place that Lost and the Damned are.

Aye, and there were female space marines too.

That statement is wrong on many, many levels, the biggest one being that the Lost and the Damned and Frateris Templar actually exist in the lore.

(That's a huge difference, in case you can't tell.)

Female space marines have never existed?



Never heard of the 2nd and 8th legions, huh?

BAM.

That was almost funny.

nomotog wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
Scientific reasoning isn't actually important, anyways. It's a fait accompli we've been presented with by the writers of the setting, similar to deuterium in boltgun rounds etc.

With some things it's just better not to think about. Or looking for an "excuse" that might make it less laughable - such as the Emperor intentionally excluding female compatibility out of fear that the Astartes might end up reproducing and replace normal humans. I picked that one up on dakka and it's by far the best idea I've heard to explain that stuff.

Maybe he was just a sexist.

Ive posted earlier in this thread that I have nothing against this or women. Its just that for some armies more then others it would require quite some work in the background. Thats all im saying. On the notion of breeding, I dont think its possible with all the implants, they probably wouldnt just carry over in one generation.

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
Scientific reasoning isn't actually important, anyways. It's a fait accompli we've been presented with by the writers of the setting, similar to deuterium in boltgun rounds etc.

With some things it's just better not to think about. Or looking for an "excuse" that might make it less laughable - such as the Emperor intentionally excluding female compatibility out of fear that the Astartes might end up reproducing and replace normal humans. I picked that one up on dakka and it's by far the best idea I've heard to explain that stuff.

Maybe he was just a sexist.

No Ive posted earlier in this thread that I have nothing against this or women. Its just that for some armies more then others it would require quite some work in the background. Thats all im saying. On the notion of breeding, I dont think its possible with all the implants, they probably wouldnt just carry over in one generation.

I was talking about big E. If he was sexist that would explain it. It could also be that the boys only gack is just gack.

nomotog wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
Scientific reasoning isn't actually important, anyways. It's a fait accompli we've been presented with by the writers of the setting, similar to deuterium in boltgun rounds etc.

With some things it's just better not to think about. Or looking for an "excuse" that might make it less laughable - such as the Emperor intentionally excluding female compatibility out of fear that the Astartes might end up reproducing and replace normal humans. I picked that one up on dakka and it's by far the best idea I've heard to explain that stuff.

Maybe he was just a sexist.

No Ive posted earlier in this thread that I have nothing against this or women. Its just that for some armies more then others it would require quite some work in the background. Thats all im saying. On the notion of breeding, I dont think its possible with all the implants, they probably wouldnt just carry over in one generation.

I was talking about big E. If he was sexist that would explain it. It could also be that the boys only gack is just gack.

Yeah I know sorry Nomotog read it wrong and edited it, my fault. I just kept that part in to point out where I stand on the subject, since I dragged the 'science' in were I say they cant be. Its also a response to the Emperor being sexist, they would never flat out state that. They have written a whole background around space marines, in which they can now avoid making different models.

I'm pretty puzzled as to why female Space Marines would be "too similar" to Sisters of Battle when male Space Marines aren't too similar to them.

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
I'm pretty puzzled as to why female Space Marines would be "too similar" to Sisters of Battle when male Space Marines aren't too similar to them.

Male Space Marines are too similar to them, they do not need to be any more similar. And like it or not, the fact that Marines are men and Sisters are women is one of the few things that differentiate them.

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
I'm pretty puzzled as to why female Space Marines would be "too similar" to Sisters of Battle when male Space Marines aren't too similar to them.

Well they also use rhinos and when they finally get updated they might get some more variants too. Basicly it comes down to the 'boob armour', would they keep that on female marines? Else they would just be SoB with helmets on, if not then you could just field normal marines as females. There is no stopping you from using marines and saying that they are just SoB with more advanced wargear if they get marine style armour. Just using the space marine codex, but what use would the SoB codex be then?

They rarely mention the male only bit. If i recall, I dosen't show up in the codex or BRB, but just a few old splat books. I'm not a huge SM person though, so I'm not sure of anything except it's hidden well enough that I haven't actually seen it.

nomotog wrote:
They rarely mention the male only bit. If i recall, I dosen't show up in the codex or BRB, but just a few old splat books. I'm not a huge SM person though, so I'm not sure of anything except it's hidden well enough that I haven't actually seen it.

The bit about only males is quite old, but it hasnt been changed so far. But its more about only using the geneseed of existing legions now, which was made from the Primarchs. The legions never had any female members (none mentioned so far). Putting them in now after all those HH books never even mentioning anything would be a big step. Creating new geneseed for females might not be possible, much knowledge about it was lost. Some chapters out there have been trying to fight flaws for over 10k years now, so just altering it for females seems like a big step to take too. It could be done but its a major change to one of the biggest factions in 40k.

 Crimson wrote:

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
I'm pretty puzzled as to why female Space Marines would be "too similar" to Sisters of Battle when male Space Marines aren't too similar to them.

Male Space Marines are too similar to them, they do not need to be any more similar. And like it or not, the fact that Marines are men and Sisters are women is one of the few things that differentiate them.

Wow. You must think Space Marines are incredibly conceptually shallow to hold that view.

On top of that, you don't think there's a teensy bit objectionable about "boys can be awesome supersoldiers, girls can be not really as good but they can wear power armour too, oh yeah and they get all their power from a man"? You don't see how that could be offputting to people?

Sisters don't feel like female SM to me. They aren't that similar except that they have power armor.

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

Wow. You must think Space Marines are incredibly conceptually shallow to hold that view.

Well, they kinda are.

On top of that, you don't think there's a teensy bit objectionable about "boys can be awesome supersoldiers, girls can be not really as good but they can wear power armour too, oh yeah and they get all their power from a man"? You don't see how that could be offputting to people?

I do*. I'f I were designing a setting from a scratch, I would not do it that way. Still, I do like conceptual purity, and I'd not put Sisters of Battle and Female Astartes into same setting. Furthermore, I think you're selling Sisters little short, they're just not poor man's (woman's?) Marines.

(*Although Sisters do not get their powers from Emperor, Acts of Faith are just psychology.)





Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:
Sisters don't feel like female SM to me. They aren't that similar except that they have power armor.

And bolters, and Rhinos, and are a monastic orders of warriors...

 Crimson wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:
Sisters don't feel like female SM to me. They aren't that similar except that they have power armor.

And bolters, and Rhinos, and are a monastic orders of warriors...

Is there more behind that period because that.s not a lot.

 Crimson wrote:

nomotog wrote:
Sisters don't feel like female SM to me. They aren't that similar except that they have power armor.

And bolters, and Rhinos, and are a monastic orders of warriors...

Except that SoB are humans in power armor, while marines are superhuman. SoB are defined by religion while marines are a "secular" army (as much as something like that can exist in the Imperium). SoB are a focused close-range shooting army with huge amounts of flamers and melta while marines are generalists that do a little of everything. SoB rely on limited-use special abilities to boost their effectiveness at key moments while marines are defined by their endurance and durability. Etc.

If SoB and female space marines are too similar then all of the different marine armies are too similar and need to be consolidated into a single codex.

 Peregrine wrote:


If SoB and female space marines are too similar then all of the different marine armies are too similar and need to be consolidated into a single codex.

Marine armies definitely are too similar and need to be consolidated into a single codex. I've been saying this for ages.