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 Eggs wrote:
To go back on topic, if we are using real world examples to try and make sense of a fictional world, wouldn't all warefare 40 thousand years in the future be carried out by drones?

they had that, they were the Iron Men, it led to a Rouge A.I. apocalypse that ended the Golden Age, or something to that effect.

back on topic, the game 'Only War' has plenty of female fighters which I really like the look of but it kind of annoys me when I see the Female on the cover carrying a Flamer, those things are bloody heavy. I'm sure a Guardswoman can kill just as well as a Guardsman of the same rank but Flamers are for bulky people, like how the Chaos Cultists have it. sure, women can be bulky, but I don't see bulky women in fiction unless they're super bulky, the kind that can lift a boulder or something.

I seem to be reading different stories then the rest of you guys because in almost every black library story I have read there are women in positions of power. And to be honest I cant remember one where they were incompetent in that position, its always the guys who are feth ups.

Now on the tabletop is a different story. I think the IG could do with a female guardsmen kit, just because that would be a cool army to play.

However remember we are talking about the 40th millennium, and for the most part the imperium is practical. Women are more important than men in keeping the cogs turning simply because they are the limiter on how many humans can exist.

 Leth wrote:
I seem to be reading different stories then the rest of you guys because in almost every black library story I have read there are women in positions of power. And to be honest I cant remember one where they were incompetent in that position, its always the guys who are feth ups.

agreed, I've read only a dozen or more books and only once can I remember a Woman having the... foolish role? being a Tau supporter, incidentally I didn't finish that particular book, maybe it wasn't a foolish position in the end...

still, there's isn't much in the way of amazing females in the rulebook, which most players get exposed to.

 Lotet wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I seem to be reading different stories then the rest of you guys because in almost every black library story I have read there are women in positions of power. And to be honest I cant remember one where they were incompetent in that position, its always the guys who are feth ups.

agreed, I've read only a dozen or more books and only once can I remember a Woman having the... foolish role? being a Tau supporter, incidentally I didn't finish that particular book, maybe it wasn't a foolish position in the end...

still, there's isn't much in the way of amazing females in the rulebook, which most players get exposed to.

Is the White Scars novel - is that the errent Rogue Traders daughter - if so her position does vary through the course of the novel and she has got pretty good reasons for where she is and what she does.............

There should be a good mix of competent and incompetant women ion the novels - but I would agree they tend to be the former

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Lotet wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I seem to be reading different stories then the rest of you guys because in almost every black library story I have read there are women in positions of power. And to be honest I cant remember one where they were incompetent in that position, its always the guys who are feth ups.

agreed, I've read only a dozen or more books and only once can I remember a Woman having the... foolish role? being a Tau supporter, incidentally I didn't finish that particular book, maybe it wasn't a foolish position in the end...

still, there's isn't much in the way of amazing females in the rulebook, which most players get exposed to.

Is the White Scars novel - is that the errent Rogue Traders daughter - if so her position does vary through the course of the novel and she has got pretty good reasons for where she is and what she does.............

There should be a good mix of competent and incompetant women ion the novels - but I would agree they tend to be the former

there's more reasons than because her dad is a variety of sexist? that's good, because it seemed really dumb to help aliens for that reason alone.

well, on the title of the thread, I read plenty of miscellaneous women doing random menial jobs on board the starships, clergy and supply. though lately it's been Remembrancers from the Horus Heresy series who are all artists, poets, pictographers and the like, so plenty of other things for the ladies outside of the War engulfing the universe.

 Melissia wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Because when you're making a character, for whatever purpose, their gender will affect that character.

So you're a proponent of the "the character should be male by default" school of thought then.

How unfortunate.

Not in the slightest. I actually go the other way.

I know, I know. I'm a terrible misandrist. Well, to be honest, I'm more of a misanthropist, but it's easier to hate men.

Lotet wrote:back on topic, the game 'Only War' has plenty of female fighters which I really like the look of but it kind of annoys me when I see the Female on the cover carrying a Flamer, those things are bloody heavy. I'm sure a Guardswoman can kill just as well as a Guardsman of the same rank but Flamers are for bulky people, like how the Chaos Cultists have it. sure, women can be bulky, but I don't see bulky women in fiction unless they're super bulky, the kind that can lift a boulder or something.

I don't have the full book, but I remember in the beta rules the Heavy Support archetype was a rather muscular woman with a flamethrower. The arms looked rather fitting (Vasquez-style). That wasn't a Cadian, though - from what I can see on the internets the full book's cover instead has the standard "fair maiden" female carrying a flamer with backpack fuel tank, which might indeed look a bit odd...

On a sidenote, whilst looking for something completely different, I just found this in the 3E Guard Codex, on the page that lists some of the many IG uniform/armour styles:



Looks suitable for Necromunda Escher minis, I guess?

 Lynata wrote:

Looks suitable for Necromunda Escher minis, I guess?

I think that's the intent. One of the others looks like Van Saar. It's there to remind people that they can use Necromunda models as guard.

Crimson wrote:I think that's the intent. One of the others looks like Van Saar. It's there to remind people that they can use Necromunda models as guard.

Yep - rather clever of the designers, basically showcasing how you can use their various minis for IG armies.

There's a whole lot more designs that might require extensive conversation, and some I'm not even sure are possible to pull off just with GW minis at all .. on the other hand, maybe the more feral or medieval looking ones are just from WHFB.
The Guard really lets you field just about anything.

It might bear pointing out, as well, that the ideal Flame-trooper is going to be brawny (regardless of gender), but the IG often operates under less-than-ideal conditions. Perhaps she was the only soldier in the regiment both trained for the Flamer and also not already assigned to a mission-critical role. Sure, maybe it was her tertiary specialty but, needs of the army and all that...

 Amaya wrote:



I'd like Melissia to clarify how she thinks women should be written. I also think you can swap any character's gender in any story. There are effeminate men and masculine women. As long as you write them as actual characters and not caricature there shouldn't be a problem..

@Mel would write them as they are portrayed in Menzoberranzan...:-)...... x10....Kidding...

 Amaya wrote:
I'd like Melissia to clarify how she thinks women should be written.

Honestly? Unless the subject matter specifically deals with gender issues or issues of parenthood*, I'd say one of the best ways to get around it is to create a character and their personality and backstory... and assign their gender on the flip of a coin.

Perhaps this might result in what you think of as "weird" characters. A woman full of machismo, or a very maternal man. But where's the problem there? There is no personality type that is unique amongst either gender. I know several women who are full of machismo myself, brought on by surviving and even thriving in highly competitive corporate environments, and a few stay at home dads that have developed in to very maternal people.

Actually, both of these examples have been studied by modern science, and there are slight biochemical differences between people in various environments (the corporate world, military organizations, scientific organizations, etc), such as a higher or lower natural production of testosterone or estrogen (used by both genders, often for similar purposes). The exact specifics of these differences and how they occur are often ill-understood and still being researched, but it goes to show that people adapt to their environment regardless of gender. I think that modern science has shown that their upbringing and the environment a person lives in are by far the bigger (albeit not the only) determining factors of an individual's personality traits.

Besides, oftentimes the most memorable characters in fiction are the ones that aren't normal anyway. Ciaphas Cain is a good example of this.



* In the former case, you should try to do research and deal with it in a tasteful, reasonable manner. Remember that there are many facets to gender-- most notably, biological vs social vs mental. How much your biological gender determines your personality is still not yet clear, although I haven't seen any research that leads me to believe that it isn't quite a bit smaller than popular culture would lead one to believe. And that doesn't even get in to discussing the case of various transgendered or intersexed peoples, whom are often ill-understood by society at large even compared to the topic of gender as a whole. Arguably even in the latter case it's not really relevant unless you specifically deal with pregnancy, especially with the advent of gay marriage and LBGT rights. In science fiction, arguably it matters even less what gender a person is in, because science fiction often involves heavy cybernetic enhancement, gene therapy, and so on anyway. 40k is no exception here.

Apologies if this post was somewhat incoherent. I'm tired out by paperwork

 Melissia wrote:
I think that modern science has shown that their upbringing and the environment a person lives in are by far the bigger (albeit not the only) determining factors of an individual's personality traits.

reminds me of that Lazlo Polgar fellow and his 3 daughters who he trained to play Chess. all of them great, one becoming the first female Grandmaster, another winning a Roman tournament involving several Grandmasters (aged 14) and the third becoming the youngest Grandmaster to achieve the rank at the time, irrelevant of gender. though his point was that "geniuses are made, not born". nothing to do with genders...

 Lotet wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Lotet wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I seem to be reading different stories then the rest of you guys because in almost every black library story I have read there are women in positions of power. And to be honest I cant remember one where they were incompetent in that position, its always the guys who are feth ups.

agreed, I've read only a dozen or more books and only once can I remember a Woman having the... foolish role? being a Tau supporter, incidentally I didn't finish that particular book, maybe it wasn't a foolish position in the end...

still, there's isn't much in the way of amazing females in the rulebook, which most players get exposed to.

Is the White Scars novel - is that the errent Rogue Traders daughter - if so her position does vary through the course of the novel and she has got pretty good reasons for where she is and what she does.............

There should be a good mix of competent and incompetant women ion the novels - but I would agree they tend to be the former

there's more reasons than because her dad is a variety of sexist? that's good, because it seemed really dumb to help aliens for that reason alone.

well, on the title of the thread, I read plenty of miscellaneous women doing random menial jobs on board the starships, clergy and supply. though lately it's been Remembrancers from the Horus Heresy series who are all artists, poets, pictographers and the like, so plenty of other things for the ladies outside of the War engulfing the universe.

As I read it she was working with the Xenos as a way to get wealth and power - as any true scion of a Rogue Trader should be doing - however she makes some errors and unfortunate / powerful enemies in the process.

The female Captain of Angron's flagship is a great character in the recent HH books

I've just finished reading Titanicus and found Cally to be one of the better characters and a very believable female character the same can be said with all women in the book.

They did it well in the video game space marine where a gaurswoman took comand and i think it made the game more enjoyable just because it added more flavor to the game.

From the Dark Heresy roleplay I'm currently involved in.

[9:09:47 PM] Adolph Hipster: "Thanks!" Aethena says, taking the drink and sniffing at it. "You're not a Batarion are you?" she asks, grinning
[9:10:06 PM] FinalAnswer: "What?"
[9:10:35 PM] Shane Inman: Vortigern tries to find the bar where Sidonus and Aethena are
[9:10:44 PM] Adolph Hipster: She laughs heartily. Downing the drink in one swing
[9:10:47 PM] Shane Inman: 5/43
[9:10:53 PM] FinalAnswer: Aethena
[9:10:58 PM] FinalAnswer: Is invigorated to a new level
[9:11:11 PM] FinalAnswer: +50 strength for the rest of the day
[9:11:19 PM] FinalAnswer: Unfortunately
[9:11:21 PM] FinalAnswer: Timeskip
[9:11:26 PM] Adolph Hipster: "I wonder if I can beat you n-
[9:11:30 PM] Adolph Hipster: She finds herself teleported into her room
[9:11:34 PM] Adolph Hipster: "Awwww."
[9:11:39 PM] FinalAnswer: A few days later
[9:11:42 PM] Jack of Diamonds: A BLURR OF PARTYING LATER, Sidonus is in his room.
[9:11:53 PM] FinalAnswer: The acolytes are CALLED by Officer Duxah to the clocktower
[9:12:14 PM] Jack of Diamonds: Sidonus waits outside, because he's scared to look for the tower without Adaline.
[9:12:19 PM] FinalAnswer: Adaline
[9:12:22 PM] Shane Inman: Vortigern goes to the clocktower, wearing his kewl armour
[9:12:23 PM] FinalAnswer: Looks for the tower
[9:12:24 PM] Adolph Hipster: Aethena's eyes slowly creep open. She's in her bed. "Oh... it was all just a dream." she sighs.
[9:12:28 PM] FinalAnswer: Which towers over the city
[9:12:34 PM] FinalAnswer: So +100 to test
[9:12:34 PM] Shane Inman: Vortigern sticks with Ada to help her I guess...?
[9:12:47 PM] Adolph Hipster: Something crawls over her and gets out of the bed. "Nope. Better." Says the ork kommando, staggering to his feet
[9:13:59 PM] Adolph Hipster: "Call me." she mouths to the ork as he takes his leave. She puts on some clothes and meets with the rest of the group at wherever


I basically roleplay the greatest female acolyte ever.

Dude you suck ass, lol.

 Fire_for_effect wrote:
As many others already said, many books have a variety of strong female characters, especially the marvelous "Gaunts Ghosts" series.

Although I agree that 40k could need some more women, I don't think it necessarily NEEDS a system of perfect gender equality. Why? Because it's the grim dark future and everything is grim dark and bad. I think it has pretty much been established that the Imperium is mostly a horrid place to live in. So why is it surprising that in this system that is strongly xenophobic, extremely fascist, that employs forceful conscription of entire populations, genocide and a whole palette of insane atrocities, there is also sexism.
This is not to say it's good, but it's kind of the Imperium's thing.

Besides, has anyone ever given it the thought that the fact that the Imperial Guard is mainly made up of men (although as we just established, there are plenty of mixed gender regiments in fluff) is somehow sexist towards men? I mean I wouldn't call being shipped out to foreign planets to fight aliens or fanatics to act as meat shield with less worth than your gun a privilege.
Seeing as plenty of guardsmen don't actually want to join the Imperial guard and are forced into it or coerced by their culture and religion, I wouldn't really consider it a "freedom" to join the Imperial Guard.

Anyway its good to be back at least temporarily . Have to find some quotes I posted here.

Anyway, Fire_for_effect, women are everywhere in the Imperium! Just look at the Only War rpg to see this. Look at the Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition, Astropaths, SOB, Rogue Traders, Imperial Guard, Planetary governors to see this. The Only ones who are pure male are the SM's who are not a majority in the Imperium. Also for the Imperial guard. Not all of them are conscripts. A lot come from the PDF or some from those who have volunteered. Some are conscripted by drafts. But the Imperium doesn't conscript an entire planets population!

Other than that, the rest of your post is just the usual Imperial sucks, blah, blah and blah.

Why does GW not show women? Because the creators of 40k are men who are making this game for boys and men.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
You are a part of the Imperium, therefor you're oppressed by default.

Correct. To be fair this applies to humans in the other factions as well. You will be oppressed under the Orks, Chaos and Tau also. Freedom as we know it doesn't exist in 40k, grimdark ho !

Oh and an example of a female Catachan


Now some of you may complain about her not having armor. I will answer by pointing out that she be Catachan! They need no armor! Their biceps will protect them .


edit: Found the quotes I was looking for. Will be leaving now. take care guys!

Female Catachans already exist IRL.

Would smash; her biceps could stand to be a tad bigger though. I just don't see someone with biceps of that size being able to strangle a chaos marine in power armor to death.

The men in the 40k series are sterile steroid meatheads with no concept of anything beyond how to wage war and propagate a meaningless totalitarian state.

So....what exactly are you complaining about? This sounds like you want a special privilege. Anyway, this hobby has existed for a long time precisely because it is a fantasy dreamed up by men for other men to enjoy. And what else. Who cares.

As long as you enjoy it, it is what it is. A dystopic fiction world. It should not be the job of artists to temper their creative works in the pursuit of satisfying every arbitrary objection. They should not have to change an entire fictional universe that has existed as a commercially and artistically successful product for 2 decades just because you happen to not like it. A work of fiction doesn't somehow reach out and affect the real world. Some art is just meant to be dystopic, hopeless, in some means of a social critique, or in the case of 40k, a game to be played over beer and pretzels. It's a game. Enjoy it. Or don't.

BlaxicanX wrote:Would smash; her biceps could stand to be a tad bigger though. I just don't see someone with biceps of that size being able to strangle a chaos marine in power armor to death.

Tactics and guns are the answer! Seriously, do you think all the guns are just for show?

TedNugent wrote:The men in the 40k series are sterile steroid meatheads with no concept of anything beyond how to wage war and propagate a meaningless totalitarian state.

I know you're not being serious but still; men in 40k are not sterile steroid meatheads.

Also the meaningless totalitarian thing also applies to the other factions like those who are for Chaos, Tau or even the DE. Eldar are also meaningless in what they do.

So....what exactly are you complaining about? This sounds like you want a special privilege. Anyway, this hobby has existed for a long time precisely because it is a fantasy dreamed up by men for other men to enjoy. And what else. Who cares.

As long as you enjoy it, it is what it is. A dystopic fiction world. It should not be the job of artists to temper their creative works in the pursuit of satisfying every arbitrary objection. They should not have to change an entire fictional universe that has existed as a commercially and artistically successful product for 2 decades just because you happen to not like it. A work of fiction doesn't somehow reach out and affect the real world. Some art is just meant to be dystopic, hopeless, in some means of a social critique, or in the case of 40k, a game to be played over beer and pretzels. It's a game. Enjoy it. Or don't.

To be frank, women exist in all areas of the Imperium government. There is no sexism other than the sexual imagery and that is nothing unique to 40k.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:Would smash; her biceps could stand to be a tad bigger though. I just don't see someone with biceps of that size being able to strangle a chaos marine in power armor to death.

Tactics and guns are the answer! Seriously, do you think all the guns are just for show?

Catachans have proven that the best way to deal with Chaos Marines is to strangle them, preferably with a root of some kind.

 Coolyo294 wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:Would smash; her biceps could stand to be a tad bigger though. I just don't see someone with biceps of that size being able to strangle a chaos marine in power armor to death.

Tactics and guns are the answer! Seriously, do you think all the guns are just for show?

Catachans have proven that the best way to deal with Chaos Marines is to strangle them, preferably with a root of some kind.

That was a one off incident where a CSM didn't have his helmet on and was caught by surprise. So no on what you're saying.

Actually, it happens all the time with Catachans, if you read the fluff.

MMJ24 wrote:
They did it well in the video game space marine where a gaurswoman took comand and i think it made the game more enjoyable just because it added more flavor to the game.

Also the Dawn of War games has her:


http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Elena_Derosa


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlaxicanX wrote:
Actually, it happens all the time with Catachans, if you read the fluff.

Where?

WD#373 for one, and also the Guard dex, off the top of my head.

BlaxicanX wrote:
WD#373 for one, and also the Guard dex, off the top of my head.

I believe the Guard dex one is what I already talked about where he caught an CSM by surprise. I will go check if you give me he edition number and pg.

As for WD#373, I have no access to that source and can't comment on it.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:I believe the Guard dex one is what I already talked about where he caught an CSM by surprise

If that's about the CSM Lord being strangled by Straken, that was in Codex Planetstrike.
I haven't noticed anything like that in the IG 'dex, but one can always miss something.