Misogyny and the lack of normal women in 40K.

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**Melissia**

Not just new customers, but also return customers as well. It's not just women that want female imperial guard models, but a lot of guys would like them, too.

**GreySkull**

Mr Morden wrote:
Yes and no - amazing how few character warriors wear helmets on the 40k battlefield ?

The 40K universe is not and never has been based on pure Vulcan logic - its about having fun with death and darkness - you know what most of us as teenagers saw as cool, mix in massive amounts of violence, hints of sex and some comedy and enjoy.

Bare / exposed chests - well catchan's are fine with it as are a number of other "primitive" warriors and a number of the Xenos - Kroot and Orks usually disdain armour never mind extensive clothing. Dark Eldar and Servants of Chaos flash the flesh to taunt and tantalise............they are happy for you to look as in that moment they have ensared your soul, or slit yout throat - or both.

re love stories- you miss the point - love stories don’t have to end well or happily - give someone hope and something to give their all for and then at the end find that which they strived for was already crushed or worse totally false - that’s grim dark.

People say that to make the good shine you need evil but the reverse is also true, to make the darkness mean something there needs to be an element of light to be either maintained or snuffed out as a contrast - at least IMO.

This is used in a number of BL novels from older ones like Last Chancers to more recent ones like Wrath of Iron or Imperial Glory - there are love stories here - but Emperor they often end so badly..................

Love, be it sexual or not, can be a important element of the story if it’s handled well.

I have to say wasn't thinking that way when I wrote that post, but you are correct. One only has to look to Romeo and Juliet to see that's true. Ah me.

**deathmagiks**

Just out of curiosity, since I've not read every post in the previous 36 pages...

Has anyone touched on the fact that, aside from the title of the thread including "normal women," that there are very few "normal men" abounding in the grimdark of the future? They're either, from my experience, a low-brow caricature of some kind of trope (corrupt politician, fat cat businessman/priest/etc.) which, usually, either gets stamped into paste or eaten or mauled in some fashion by some demon/space marine/equally superhuman entity, or their some kind of male figure so far down on the spectrum of good and evil that their morality, like their superhuman facilities, is beyond what would be deemed "normal" by any sane individual. Even the Imperial Guard characters displayed have herculean levels of endurance/stamina/faith/determination/any other number of traits.

It's a universe above our own, not just in years, but in manifestations of reality and history, superhuman in everything it describes and displays, especially it's humanity. I don't think there's a normal *anything* in the 40k universe.

That said, in regards to models being crafted and molded? I do believe there should be more equality in the... let's call it equality in the curvature of the torso region, because realistically, aside from unhelmeted models with flowing hair, how else are you gonna know?

**Melissia**

deathmagiks wrote:
Has anyone touched on the fact that, aside from the title of the thread including "normal women," that there are very few "normal men" abounding in the grimdark of the future?

Yeah, the low-quality nature of the BL collection has been mentioned a few times.

**deathmagiks**

Well to be honest I've not read much from the black library, so while I have drawn from a book or two, what I mean specifically are the armies and the codecies (codexie? codexes?) themselves. Everything punches with god-fists, everything is sharp enough to cut through dreams, everything blows holes through mile thick super-plate made of mega-ultra-hyper-nitro alloy.

I mean don't get me wrong. I like the universe, the gothic nature of it, the juxtaposition of the audacity of it with the horror of actually living in that time, but in the same way I wouldn't look for round, dynamic characters from a 14 year old Michael Bay, I wouldn't really expect accurate representation, nor anything even remotely close thereof, of equal gender representation simply because there is no accurate representation of anything in the universe.

Now, since I happen to agree with an equality in gender representation, I do think that there should be females in a fair number in the fluff, as well as in the models, since the creation of both of these things happens in our world, rather than in 40k, but to call the 40k universe misogynistic is... flawed, both in definition and understanding imo.

**Psienesis**

I believe the "normal" asked for in the OP is less about "normal" in M2 and more about "normal" in M41. That is to say, women who appear as if they were average Imperial citizens from a standard Imperial or Hive world..... not stilletto-heel, thin-leather-body-harness-and-G-string wearing gunbunny assassin-babes.

That said, in regards to models being crafted and molded? I do believe there should be more equality in the... let's call it equality in the curvature of the torso region, because realistically, aside from unhelmeted models with flowing hair, how else are you gonna know?

Even in similar styles of body-armor, on average, women are shorter and narrower in the shoulders than a comparatively-athletic man, though their legs are proportionately longer and their torsos more compact. This is true regardless, however. While both of them may be identically capable of the same feats of strength and endurance, they are not physically the same.

**deathmagiks**

Psienesis wrote:
Even in similar styles of body-armor, on average, women are shorter and narrower in the shoulders than a comparatively-athletic man, though their legs are proportionately longer and their torsos more compact. This is true regardless, however. While both of them may be identically capable of the same feats of strength and endurance, they are not physically the same.

True, but for the size of models we're talking about, i.e. the ones played with, such differences could easily be seen as simple variations across the average model type. I.G. for example, or hell, Eldar Guardians. I think for something that small to be noticeable at any time other than painting the thing, you need to over exaggerate the differences.

**Psienesis**

You could make the model slightly thinner and with narrower shoulders, for one. If you wanted to exaggerate the features, without getting into Daemonette territory, give the female model a narrower waist and wider hips. Trail a ponytail out of the back of her helmet.

There's a number of non-GW miniature manufacturers that have female soldiers in full battle-rattle that are obviously female without falling into the boob-plate trap, at the same level of scale, so I know it's possible.

**RancidHate**

This isn't the chicken and the egg.

Tabletop wargames have, by the numbers, not appealed to women; so miniatures / artwork was not developed to their sensibilities.

<rant>Besides many women can barely maintain 10 minutes worth of non-repeating conversation, they would go stir-crazy at a 4-hour 3000pt. match. Sometimes if I'm talking to a woman at a bar or some other hole, I just copy CJ from GTA San Andreas, "Girl, that's so interesting, I'm jus' gonna listen."</rant>

I treat with the utmost repsect women who choose to entertain our hyper-masculine fiction with a sense of humor.

...and yes women of the latter sort do exist in great enough numbers that their opinions about our toys are -NOT- to be immediately dismissed.

**Melissia**

RancidHate wrote:
This isn't the chicken and the egg.

Tabletop wargames have, by the numbers, not appealed to women

The overwhelming majority of the population, male or female, doesn't likely even know that tabletop wargames EXISTS.

**Lynata**

He does have a point, although that's a situation that is changing as both genders slowly start to break down the artificial barriers separating their standing in society.

Hobbies and interests are connected to how we were raised, and with a slightly more liberal upbringing that is no longer enforcing strict gender roles as well as supporting media, it is no surprise that more and more women play video games, enjoy action movies or, yes, might pick up 40k.
Although the latter is probably somewhat hampered by its lack of advertisement outside the group and thus public awareness.

Still, the game itself was invented by a bunch of white nerdy dudes, and it's safe to assume that they were designing it in a way that would appeal to likeminded people - namely other white nerdy dudes. This isn't even a conscious process, but merely a matter of propagating one's own preferences. And keeping this in mind, it could have been so much worse.

**Psienesis**

<rant>Besides many women can barely maintain 10 minutes worth of non-repeating conversation, they would go stir-crazy at a 4-hour 3000pt. match. Sometimes if I'm talking to a woman at a bar or some other hole, I just copy CJ from GTA San Andreas, "Girl, that's so interesting, I'm jus' gonna listen."</rant>

Men have the same problem. Take a look at YMDC or some of the other forums here.

**Camkierhi**

@RancidHate
This is kinda touching on the point I was trying to make earlier. We are not talking about a million people extra coming to the game scene just because there are suddenly some normal female models. So sales would not pick up sufficiantly to warrent the outlay.

Oh and I am sure the "ladies" here are going to feel soo much better about skinny waists with wide hips, So now we have a bunch of pear shaped guardspersons on the field that are a bit shorter. Oh but we can't do shorter, all guardspersons are 5'9" tall as Imperial standard dictates. All models in 40k are exagerated to show detail. They are the most mishapen bunch of plastic out there. The vast majority of guns are far to big, there feet are all huge, and nobody has a neck!!!! So how are you to represent the female form. What exactly do you want here? You cant have shorter, skinnier. You cant have buxom. About the only way I have heard of yet was to issue female heads, and ponytails.

PS Please don't take me too seriously I am being an idiot deliberately.

**Lynata**

Camkierhi wrote:This is kinda touching on the point I was trying to make earlier. We are not talking about a million people extra coming to the game scene just because there are suddenly some normal female models. So sales would not pick up sufficiantly to warrent the outlay.

I'm not sure the hobby even has a million players now. Plus, GW produces new minis all the time - from special characters to entire army revamps - so I'm not sure why the outlay should be such a big concern only when it suddenly comes to female IG.

Camkierhi wrote:Oh and I am sure the "ladies" here are going to feel soo much better about skinny waists with wide hips, So now we have a bunch of pear shaped guardspersons on the field that are a bit shorter. Oh but we can't do shorter, all guardspersons are 5'9" tall as Imperial standard dictates. All models in 40k are exagerated to show detail. They are the most mishapen bunch of plastic out there. The vast majority of guns are far to big, there feet are all huge, and nobody has a neck!!!! So how are you to represent the female form. What exactly do you want here? You cant have shorter, skinnier. You cant have buxom. About the only way I have heard of yet was to issue female heads, and ponytails.

And those heads would already be a quick and easy fix, would they not? But that aside, I'm not sure I understand the point you are trying to make. Are you argueing that it's impossible for GW to create female minis? Because they actually do have a fair bunch of them already, just not for the Guard.

Or rather, not as standard troopers. Take Rocket Girl or the Catachan Grenade Launcher from this pic (far left and far right respectively) and slap some flak on them to turn them into Cadians. Voila. Done. Was that so hard?

**Furyou Miko**

I love the camo work on that Rocket Girl's combats.

Why does Camkieri feel the need to put 'ladies' in inverted commas, I wonder?

**Lynata**

Well, this is the internet!

But yeah, the paintjobs on those minis are very nicely done! And I have a thing for sky camo as well.

**Melissia**

I like blue camo myself.

**Crimson**

I hate camouflage. Military uniforms used to look cool, camouflage ruined it.

**Monster Rain**

You realize that most military personnel have a few different uniforms issued to them, right?

**Crimson**

Monster Rain wrote:
You realize that most military personnel have a few different uniforms issued to them, right?

Yes. The ugly ones and pretty ones. Yes, there are still plenty of nice looking parade uniforms.

**Monster Rain**

Bearing that in mind, I guess I'm not seeing how camoflage ruined anything.

**Crimson**

Monster Rain wrote:
Bearing that in mind, I guess I'm not seeing how camoflage ruined anything.

In uniforms actually used in the field of battle. I prefer the look of 19th century and early 20th century uniforms, OK?

**Melissia**

Which is fine if you like getting shot.

**Crimson**

Melissia wrote:
Which is fine if you like getting shot.

I give my Space Marine sergeants differently coloured helmets and back banners Let's just say that practicality is not high on my list of considerations when choosing an attire for my toy soldiers.

**Void__Dragon**

Lynata wrote:
Are you argueing that it's impossible for GW to create female minis? Because they actually do have a fair bunch of them already, just not for the Guard.

As I recall though, most of those female minis tend to be wearing chainmail bikinis, boob armour, or some other exaggerated aspect to show that the model is female. Or Daemonettes, which just don't wear anything at all for the most part (3e Daemonettes forever). Which would be inappropriate for Cadians guardswomen. It is a fair point, IMO. The only real difference would be facial.

**Furyou Miko**

On the contrary, I mislike bright, primary coloured uniforms and think disruptive camo looks really cool. Hence why I worked so hard to paint my all-black Inquisitorial Vendetta in disruptive pattern camo.

You have to admire the skill involved with painting the camo on that Rocket Girl's legs though, even if you don't like the design itself.

**Bassik**

I think a lot of these issues would be solved if the mixed sex aspect of many Imperial regiments comes more to the foreground, miniatures wise.

**Lynata**

Crimson wrote:Military uniforms used to look cool, camouflage ruined it.

Point taken.

Void__Dragon wrote:As I recall though, most of those female minis tend to be wearing chainmail bikinis, boob armour, or some other exaggerated aspect to show that the model is female.

Most is not all, though.

And there are a lot of subtle differences. The only questionable point would be whether it's really worth producing one or two entirely new troop minis given this subtleness, or just the heads.
A whole new mini such as another variant of the officer, however, would obviously be created from scratch.

**Mr Morden**

Most 40K Guard regiments, like the Astartes disdain camoflage - or have the wrong type for where they are sent.

You can talk a uniform from any period in history and use it in 40k - be that naked, half clad, fitted body armour or modern day unisex. Anything works.

Camo gear for most soldiers is very new way of fighting - for the majority of historical warfare it was non existant or even avoided.

**Melissia**

Mr Morden wrote:
Most 40K Guard regiments, like the Astartes disdain camoflage

Except they really don't.

I can see them having the WRONG camoflage, but the ones that disdain it entirely are usually the exceptions, not the rule.

Cadians are given a generic green/brown camo usually, which is good in most non-urban situations, Valhallans use a snow/ice/urban camo. Catachan use (partially anyway) a jungle camo. And Tallarn use a desert camo.