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Occasionally, they did their jobs very well. Other times... not so much.

 Kain wrote:
They were morally abhorrent and despicable people, the foulest military group ever made. But they did their jobs very, very well.

Sorry, I lost track here, are you describing the soviets who raped their way across eastern Europe and then oppressed the same for 50 years throwing political opponents into concentration camps? You know the people working for the same ideology that produced Pol Pot and the various red groups in western Europe that used to plant bombs in restaurants.
Communism is like a real world chaos cult, the last real example of it now being North Korea and look at what a bunch of nutbars they are. Actually I was looking at footage from there recently and the atmosphere is redolent of what existed in nazi Germany and the USSR - nations full of extremists.

As for the IG, I'm sure the DKOK can fight without having to dig trenches. Is that their only form though? Do they not have a summer uniform or even a version with a short coat to make going over obstacles easier? I can't see them fighting all the time with long coats, the tails would get in the way and catch on things.

It'd make more sense if the standard imperial guard squad kits had some female models chucked in with the men, given that millions of both men and women are supposed to be conscripted daily.

cadbren wrote:

 Kain wrote:
They were morally abhorrent and despicable people, the foulest military group ever made. But they did their jobs very, very well.

Sorry, I lost track here, are you describing the soviets who raped their way across eastern Europe and then oppressed the same for 50 years throwing political opponents into concentration camps? You know the people working for the same ideology that produced Pol Pot and the various red groups in western Europe that used to plant bombs in restaurants.
Communism is like a real world chaos cult, the last real example of it now being North Korea and look at what a bunch of nutbars they are. Actually I was looking at footage from there recently and the atmosphere is redolent of what existed in nazi Germany and the USSR - nations full of extremists.

I'm sorry - did you lived under communist regime - ever ? And this is a serious question, because I have...

 DarthMarko wrote:

cadbren wrote:

 Kain wrote:
They were morally abhorrent and despicable people, the foulest military group ever made. But they did their jobs very, very well.

Sorry, I lost track here, are you describing the soviets who raped their way across eastern Europe and then oppressed the same for 50 years throwing political opponents into concentration camps? You know the people working for the same ideology that produced Pol Pot and the various red groups in western Europe that used to plant bombs in restaurants.
Communism is like a real world chaos cult, the last real example of it now being North Korea and look at what a bunch of nutbars they are. Actually I was looking at footage from there recently and the atmosphere is redolent of what existed in nazi Germany and the USSR - nations full of extremists.

I'm sorry - did you lived under communist regime - ever ? And this is a serious question, because I have...

I was born in the Soviet union, but left at an early age because my parents thought that Yelstin was an illegitimate usurper who ruined Russia not long after the USSR fell. They said that the USSR was a fair and okay place to live, it wasn't either the communist Utopia of propaganda or the Orweillian hellhole of parody, it was a decent and pretty regular place to live. The living conditions were pretty good and most everyone had what they needed, whereas in other states you have some living in pretty desperate straits and others living in luxury, the USSR as a whole according to my parents settled in the median of "decent, not especially wonderful, but it was comfortable."

Also, North Korea stopped having any pretensions to socialism quite a while ago, all references to socialism and communism were removed from the constitution not long after the USSR fell. The current Nork system is much more akin to Isolationist Fascism a la Franco's spain than what you would find in the USSR or PRC. I'd actually say that no government has ever really become communist, authoritarian socialism seems to be about as far as they ever get.

I won't deny that the USSR did some pretty terrible things, but compared to what the axis powers did to Eurasia, the Soviet Union is rather tame.

^I lived in former Yugoslavia and I could tell you that working conditons were 10x better then they are today in so called democracy...
Completely free healthcare, working class lived pretty high and we were realy happy until capitalism came and destroyed everything...


Don't get me wrong I'm not left winger or something - but really people need to stop beliving everything what they see on TV....
North Korea is really bad though......

 DarthMarko wrote:
^I lived in former Yugoslavia and I could tell you that working conditons were 10x better then they are today in so called democracy...
Completely free healthcare, working class lived pretty high and we were realy happy until capitalism came and destroyed everything...


Don't get me wrong I'm not left winger or something - but really people need to stop beliving everything what they see on TV....
North Korea is really bad though......

Well at least the Friendship between the peoples of the former Soviet Union and Yugoslavia remains strong. Last time I was in Russia they had a very favorable opinion of Croatia and Serbia. They do hope that relations between Serbia and Croatia patch up soon though.

Just to bad we don't anymore...
Serbia has a really strong connection with Russia, but Croatia not so much...
Let's say we are more close to germans (always were)...

I remember my mothers paycheck in former regime

10 000 0000 dinars O and one sort of chocolate in 6 countries....
But quality of food was 50 0000 better then imported crap we eat today....

And here is a bad thing - "former police"..they were some pretty hard hiters

Pol Pot

Not a communist, just a delusional Cambodian nationalist who hated technology and literacy.

Let's say we are more close to Germans (always were)...

Its not a German connection its a Catholic connection, Austrians have always felt more connected to Southern and Eastern European Catholics than too Germanic protestants.

But yea, socialism in my opinion isn't all that bad, the government does have a responsibility to provide adequate living standards to its people, it got a bad name because the Soviets used it to pave the way for conquest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I believe this phrase can sum up the Waffen SS perfectly "No better soldiers have ever served a worse cause." They were morally abhorrent and despicable people, the foulest military group ever made. But they did their jobs very, very well.

The SS Viking division was acquitted of all war-crimes charges. Different units behaved very differently, just like in Vietnam their were American units that were known for good behavior and some known for wanton rape and murder, same with Soviet units.

Perhaps we can talk about 40k governments and how they effected women in 40k, instead of IRL ones with absolutely no attempts to even try to link it to the thread?

 Melissia wrote:
Perhaps we can talk about 40k governments and how they effected women in 40k, instead of IRL ones with absolutely no attempts to even try to link it to the thread?

Yes please.

Perhaps we can talk about 40k governments and how they effected women in 40k, instead of IRL ones with absolutely no attempts to even try to link it to the thread?

\
I believe it was when someone got on a soap box and talked about the "bad dudes" of our last century that the conversation went downhill.

 Melissia wrote:
Numerous ladies in the Marines scored the highest possible physical fitness score... on the male test.

How come they can't get a single woman through IOC despite several attempts, then?

In opening up combat arms roles to women, standards are going to have to be lowered. This isn't even in doubt; it's the way it works. It happened with jump school, it happened with the IOCT at USMA, etc. This might - and I stress might - be okay for Big Army, but it won't be happening with most SOF. We won't be seeing female SEALs.

Until we do. Most SEALs aren't absolutely totally-ripped guys anyway. They tend to be on the shorter side, athletic of course, but you'd never mistake one for a Space Marine. Becoming a SEAL is more about willpower than anything, really, from everything I've been told by former SEALs.

 Seaward wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Numerous ladies in the Marines scored the highest possible physical fitness score... on the male test.

How come they can't get a single woman through IOC despite several attempts, then?

Two attempts

Two

Fething TWO attempts by different women. I seriously can't wrap my head around some of the stuff I see in this thread.

The IOC is not a mainly physical training regime. It is an officer's course, with officer training, as in Land Navigation, Radio protocol, Platoon organization etc. The only major difference in PT at the officer school to my knowledge is the Quigley, which is a swimming course.

And when there have been only two attempts by women to pass the course in a traditionally gender segregated environment, you do not get to use that to write off an entire sex as inferior. I'm almost completely certain that colored officer candidates failed out and then people blamed their skin color behind their backs as the cause.

 Seaward wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Numerous ladies in the Marines scored the highest possible physical fitness score... on the male test.

How come they can't get a single woman through IOC despite several attempts, then?

In opening up combat arms roles to women, standards are going to have to be lowered. This isn't even in doubt; it's the way it works. It happened with jump school, it happened with the IOCT at USMA, etc. This might - and I stress might - be okay for Big Army, but it won't be happening with most SOF. We won't be seeing female SEALs.

I'm sure a number of attempts you can count with your hands is perfectly valid evidence and not at all an outlier. Nosiree, this right here is SCIENCE.

 Seaward wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Numerous ladies in the Marines scored the highest possible physical fitness score... on the male test.

How come they can't get a single woman through IOC despite several attempts, then?

If I judged the entire male gender based off of two failed examples, I'd be called misandrist and rightfully so.

What makes you think I'm going to put up with the same gak from you about women?

Psienesis wrote:Until we do. Most SEALs aren't absolutely totally-ripped guys anyway. They tend to be on the shorter side, athletic of course, but you'd never mistake one for a Space Marine. Becoming a SEAL is more about willpower than anything, really, from everything I've been told by former SEALs.

Yeah. I've met a lot of "former SEALs" in bars, too. It's pretty strange that none of them can remember which BUD/S class they were.

IcarusDA wrote:Two attempts

Two

Fething TWO attempts by different women. I seriously can't wrap my head around some of the stuff I see in this thread.

The IOC is not a mainly physical training regime. It is an officer's course, with officer training, as in Land Navigation, Radio protocol, Platoon organization etc. The only major difference in PT at the officer school to my knowledge is the Quigley, which is a swimming course.

And when there have been only two attempts by women to pass the course in a traditionally gender segregated environment, you do not get to use that to write off an entire sex as inferior. I'm almost completely certain that colored officer candidates failed out and then people blamed their skin color behind their backs as the cause.

The Quigley's not a swimming event. It's more of a mud-and-snakes thing.

And yeah, two attempts, involving multiple women. Selected based on their chances of getting through. In the second attempt, one was out on the first day - not due to failing and nav or head counting, but due to an obstacle course failure.

Put it this way: if women would easily meet the male requirements, why did we establish two separate sets of requirements - male and female - for all the physical testing in the first place?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
How come they can't get a single woman through IOC despite several attempts, then?

If I judged the entire male gender based off of two failed examples, I'd be called misandrist and rightfully so.

What makes you think I'm going to put up with the same gak from you about women?

 Seaward wrote:
I'm not basing my assessment on just two failed examples

I have no reason to believe you.

As for why there are separate standards for men and women?

For the same reason that, in earlier times, there were separate standards for whites and blacks.

Our society is still working off a long history of prejudice, and the change is coming by slowly and is nowhere near done.

Someone should probably be quiet and provide a link that supports their claim, if they are going to continue posting off-topic bs.

Say whatever you want about Lynata, but at least she (I am assuming, because your username is Lynata) actually understands the importance of providing evidence, when all I've seen recently in this thread is two sides talking at each other without any attempt to really prove their claims.

I am a (Queer theory, third wave) feminist. I also think that the 40k setting doesn't suffer from a lack of females, because it is a grimdark, dystopian setting where questioning the will of a corpse on a golden throne means a bullet through your brain. Misogyny is a drop in the bucket of the Bad Things in the setting.

Plus from what I understand, the Tau have an equal society when it comes to gender (ohai Commander Shadowsun). So it isn't universal.

Eldar of all kinds also believe in gender equality in the fluff. Women are represented 50/50 in there guardian squads, have a whole Aspect dedicated to them, Dark eldar box also 50/50 split and have wyches which are a majority female with males mixed in. Tau equal gender rights.


Look at GW's target audience... how many females play compared to males. Of course things are going to be gender biased. This bothers you... so are you asking that GW change its whole fiction and lose thousands of dollars to satisfy a small minority of its consumers? Haha not going to happen. Now if you are asking to make little changes such as Female Guardsman or Sisters that don't look so stereotypical then ya that is fair and I think should happen as well.

As to women in combat roles in the military if they can meet the EXACT same standards as there male counterparts there is NO reason they should not be aloud to fight. A majority of males are physically stronger than most women, so unfortunately very few women make that cut. As someone in the Marines I will say that having someone in a fire team that can't drag me out of a firefight if I'm wounded, run as fast/far, handle close combat with a enemy... I definitely don't want that person in my fire team... male or female. Its not some attempt to keep the woman down, its actually quite logical and a batlefield safety concern.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
off-topic bs.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
So our allied Sentinel in Dark Heresy just dodged like seven Dark Reaper Cannon shots.

This has no relevance to the thread but who cares?

The points in the debate go round and round

Round and round

Round and round

The points in the debate go round and round

All the thread long.

 Laughing God wrote:
A majority of males are physically stronger than most women

This is the case in our society, where women are encouraged and pushed towards a sedentary lifestyle-- to the point where some women are afraid to do any sort of strength-enhancing exercise because they're afraid they'll bulk up like a bodybuilder for curling a 25 pound dumbell occasionally.

This would not be the case in a society such as Cadia, whose recruitment rate and birthrate are synonymous, and whose lifelong training makes your training as a Marine look like an enjoyable vacation.

 Melissia wrote:

 Laughing God wrote:
A majority of males are physically stronger than most women

This is the case in our society, where women are encouraged and pushed towards a sedentary lifestyle.

This would not be the case in a society such as Cadia, whose recruitment rate and birthrate are synonymous, and whose lifelong training makes your training as a Marine look like an enjoyable vacation.

Besides, most every kind of foul xeno is stronger than any human short of an Ogryn or Space Marine, how much anyone with normal human physiology can lift is meaningless when one of the most common enemies of the Imperium, the humble Ork Boy, is more than strong enough to pull your arm out of your socket with a light tug and then beat you to death with it. If a Guardsman/woman is in melee they are probably going to die, horribly.

Unless they're up against the Tau who have the dubious honor of being the only species weedier than Humans.

 Kain wrote:
any human short of an Ogryn or Space Marine

You're insinuating that either of those are human...?

 Kain wrote:
Unless they're up against the Tau who have the dubious honor of being the only species weedier than Humans.

Well yes, that goes without saying.

Ogryn is a human mutation Melissia, it might even been able to breed with a human, same with Ratlings.

 Melissia wrote:

 Kain wrote:
any human short of an Ogryn or Space Marine

You're insinuating that either of those are human...?

 Kain wrote:
Unless they're up against the Tau who have the dubious honor of being the only species weedier than Humans.

Well yes, that goes without saying.

Well the Ordo biologis seems to shoehorn Ogryns into our Genus and I suppose if there was a breeding population of the Astartes they'd also get stuffed in the genus.

So hominid would be more appropriate.

 Seaward wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Until we do. Most SEALs aren't absolutely totally-ripped guys anyway. They tend to be on the shorter side, athletic of course, but you'd never mistake one for a Space Marine. Becoming a SEAL is more about willpower than anything, really, from everything I've been told by former SEALs.

Yeah. I've met a lot of "former SEALs" in bars, too. It's pretty strange that none of them can remember which BUD/S class they were.

You make this too easy.

https://www.sealswcc.com/forums/showthread.php?582-What-weight-to-shoot-for
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2010/01/29/4377165-a-typical-seal-think-007-not-rambo?lite
http://abcnews.go.com/US/navy-seal-team-profile-elite-force/story?id=15438660#.UX_7iko8_2k