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So, as a relatively new BA player, I found out quickly just how bad our RAS got nailed in 6th.

I was at a loss on what to do with my army now that shooting was out in front and I had stuck to the whole DoA for fluff and for tactical reasons. When 6th rolled around, that all kind of went to hell.

So, here I am with an army that is mostly assault based in a shooting world. I was really stuck on what to do. Until I was looking at my codex and re-read Death Company. They weren't much of a staple in 5th due to Rage making them pants-on-head crazy, but now, that's all in the past. They're Relentless and Fearless, can carry Bolters and a plethora of CC and Pistol weapons, have FNP, FC and without jump packs, a squad of 10 kitted out comes in at about as much as a Land Raider. Best part? It's a troop choice.
"But they can't score!" You might say, and this is very true. I'm not saying forgo any scoring troops and roll in with Astorath and 90 DC. That just won't work (unless you table your opponent, which is possible.) But I am saying, in a world of shooting, these guys can cover that base AND also still are a viable assault unit even with Bolters due to their 2 base attacks and 2+ attacks on the charge because of Rage along with FC. They still lay the smack down.

Here's how I see them being used:
10 man squad, 2 powerfists, and Bolters, maybe infernus pistols if you have the points. Load them all up in a Stormraven with a Librarian Epistolary who has Divination and roll out. You have RAS on the board with some shooty units (Dev squads, and heck, even scouts to hold back-field objectives.)

What you use the Death Company for is 3 things: Line-breaker, objective denial and a psychological tool. Yes, they probably wont be out on the board until turn 2 at the earliest. But think about that for a moment. You have a decent fire base of scouts and devs (or tanks if you so choose, this is just my choice) shooting at anything across the board and your RAS hiding and waiting until the opportune moment to hit a weakened squad or take an objective. Your opponent at this point, has to come to you. Then your Raven flies on 36" and shoots something to hell and back (hopefully turn 2, but you never know). Here is where it get's interesting. You can fly on 36" and pseudo Deep-strike the Death Company in (it's no longer Skies of Blood according to the new rules, but the concept is the same.) Or you can keep them in the Raven and drop into skimmer-mode next turn and assault out of it next turn. Either way, you suddenly have a Bolter firing ball of anger that is pretty damn resilient. If you do the fly-in deep strike move, now your opponent is probably going to be scratching their head on what to do. They COULD keep walking towards you, which means that they're getting closer to your DC who can shred anything they charge AFTER they shoot it to bits. Or they can sit back and wait as you shoot at them, marching forward with your DC ready to crush anything you get in charge range of.

Now, if you go the other route, and keep the DC in the Raven to use as an assault vehicle, then you can do a number of things here too. You could go after a troop choice on a backfield objective and pretty much guarantee you're going to kill it or at LEAST deny it the point. You also can pretty much guarantee a line-breaker point if they dive and stay in combat with someone. You could also use it to back up a failing RAS. They're still your scoring troops, and at the end of the day, those points are what matter (5 out of 6 times,anyway.) Saving that troop choice may be all you need to win the game.

As a psychological tool, DC are a powerful wake up call. They need to be killed or they are going to kill something, plain and simple. Your opponent is going to need to focus a lot of fire power to bring them down too, which means the rest of your army ISN'T getting shot at. If your opponent does ignore them, then they pay the price of watching whatever you decide to go after with your DC die really fast.

In short, DC are, in my opinion, going to be a huge staple in the future of BA armies, and not just because of their buff to Rage, but also because they can fill a shooty roll in an assaulty army and still be threat in CC.

Just my two cents on the matter.

Disagree? Agree? Comments? Anything you think I missed?

Scrabblez

Disagree. Good players can handle the DC fairly easily. Their primary problems are that they don't suck up shots any better than the standard BA ASM and they lack efficient delivery options.

The other problem with this plan is that the stormraven is a terrible transport. It must start in reserve, and therefore everything on it is in reserve. Nothing on board a stormraven can assault till turn 3 at the soonest. If you roll a one or a two for reserves, you are looking at turn 4. That's way too late. Also, the turn it arrives, it will likely be shot down if its carrying anything. Say goodbye to your DC. How you ask? A stormraven with DC is worth shooting an entire list at. Even if nothing else dies that turn, killing that thing and instagibbing everything on board is well worth it. AV 12 HP 3 is too fragile to be entrusted with expensive marines.

Good players don't ignore DC, they just neutralize them in some way. I mean it's not like they weren't going to be shooting at your army anyway, and its not like the BA have a fantastic model count. The spoiling assault is also very, very bad for the DC, since all their buffs trigger upon assaulting.

DC are essentially elites, and they are competing for points in my army as such. My hybrid mech lists only use SP elites, and my drop/jumper lists use sternguard/fragnought over these guys every time. Why? Because they have maximum impact *the turn they come down*, not in future turns, trying to get an assault off. I'd even bring sanguinary guards before these guys, because I think they are a better value and can become scoring with Dante.

In general, the BA are a poor list in 6th, due to death of a 100 little nerfs. I don't think anyone has the magic formula, because there isn't one. The BA codex just doesn't work well in 6th.

There is growing evidence that the best way to rack up wins is to field 50-60 scoring FNP troops. This would not work in my meta, but is also very bland and many players don't have 50-60 jump marines. So I don't know honestly. Except that the BA kinda suck now.


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If you really, really want to go DC, use a LR. Accept no substitutes. It protects them and let's the assault turn 1 if necessary.

Drop Pods.

Drop Pod Assault.

Now Deploy 6" from said drop pod.

Making plasma pistols and especially inferneous pistols deadly.

Finally, if you don't have a better option for your army, a Reclusiarch HQ turns the DC into murderous beatsticks.

If you're going to drop in and shoot, use the sternguard with Corbulo support.

In 95% of cases, a divination libby rocks the socks off a reclusiarch. The Reclusiarch, along with Tycho are the only other "fieldable" HQs, though.

The DC don't need a reclusiarch to kill everything they touch on the assault. They already do that. The BA need the versatility of the divination libby.

Martel732 wrote:If you're going to drop in and shoot, use the sternguard with Corbulo support.

In 95% of cases, a divination libby rocks the socks off a reclusiarch. The Reclusiarch, along with Tycho are the only other "fieldable" HQs, though.

The DC don't need a reclusiarch to kill everything they touch on the assault. They already do that. The BA need the versatility of the divination libby.

Razerous wrote:Drop Pods.

Drop Pod Assault.

Now Deploy 6" from said drop pod.

Making plasma pistols and especially inferneous pistols deadly.

Finally, if you don't have a better option for your army, a Reclusiarch HQ turns the DC into murderous beatsticks.

Martel732 wrote:If you're going to drop in and shoot, use the sternguard with Corbulo support.

In 95% of cases, a divination libby rocks the socks off a reclusiarch. The Reclusiarch, along with Tycho are the only other "fieldable" HQs, though.

The DC don't need a reclusiarch to kill everything they touch on the assault. They already do that. The BA need the versatility of the divination libby.

A combination of what these guys are saying. Drop pod in some DC with a Libby. I know a chaplain or reclusiarch seems like the obvious choice, but the librarian just gives so many more options. For one, don't handcuff the librarian with only taking the divination tree. If you're facing a heavy mech list, codex powers such as Blood Lance can be pretty effective when you're picking the location to start the 4D6" inch line of vehicular destruction. Dropping in a Fragnought in the same area? Shield of Sanguinius may help him stick around a bit longer... As Martel pointed out, DC are already very killy in CC without help of re-rolls. I'd rather finish off my opponent's unit is his turn rather than get shot up in it.

We can discuss the DC all we like, but I have only lost one mirror match where my opponent had DC. Every other time, I have been able to negate them in some way.

If by drop pod, I move mobile fire over and shoot them up and then spoiling assault with whatever is handy.

If by LR, I pop with MM attack bikes and then let them languish on foot to be killed in whatever way I see fit.

If by stormraven. Well, that's the most fun, because when it pops and they all instagib, my opponent just kinda deflates. It's even better when a melta does it, because they are like "my ceramite!". Melta is still ST8 chump, and our overpriced flier is only AV 12. Plus, I can be lazy and not get as close as I normally would.

The DC "deathstar" is one of the most popular BA traps around. They're not really even a good deathstar, because their defenses aren't up to that level. They really should reprint the current BA codex as Codex: Trap Units that Look Awesome, but Disappoint in 6th Edition. But that would probably hurt sales.

Martel732 wrote:
Codex: Trap

Humour aside, I agree. DC are a major trap unit. They only real way to make them function is DP and bolters, although the same effect can be achieved by cheaper (read tacs or assault marines), or more efficacious units (read sternguard).
As a person who regularly plays against BA, avoid DC. They soak up points, but don't soak up fire-power.

LR deployment CAN work, but usually only if your opponent jelloheads the fight. For what the DC pay for jump packs, LR is the smart way to get a long charge range.

Martel732 wrote:
LR deployment CAN work, but usually only if your opponent jelloheads the fight. For what the DC pay for jump packs, LR is the smart way to get a long charge range.

I suppose...it's probably impossible to quantify, but for those 250pts spent on a Land Raider, you could probably take another squad with a drop pod. I wonder whether 2 squads could last longer than 1 squad in a LR. The damage potential of two squads is obviously higher, but a LR is a great way to draw your opponent's anti-tank fire away from more vulnerable things.

Still, I feel DC shares that common problem of all strong CC units. Wiping out its target in one turn. It's just not viable to do that, it's silly that you are punished for winning an assault, but it's still what happens.

Your prize for doing too well: every rapid fire weapon to the face. And heavy weapon. And assault weapon. You get the idea.

We don't need to debate how to make a sub-optimal choice the least sub-optimal. We'll call the DC hit or miss, but mostly miss if your opponent knows how to move his stuff around.

Yeah, I guess I'm late to the party, but my experience with DC is that 1) when they get the the enemy intact, with Prescience, they will kill whatever they charge. 2) If they are in a Stormraven and that Raven gets shot down, you just lost 1/3 of your army's points. 3) When they are in a dop pod, they will not reach the enemy intact. 4) I, personally, don't like to use Land Raiders as I don't think they add enough power for their points cost.

Therefore, if you believe your opponents won't bring much or any anti-air, then they are fools, in all likelihood, but in that scenario, go ahead and put them in a Raven and let them roll up whoever they touch. Waiting until turn 3-4 won't necessarily cripple your army. Still, it's a big cost and I'm keeping away from these dudes now days.

The Reclusiarch and Librarian both can enhance DC and make them hit extra hard, but point for point, both are inefficient compared to just adding more DC. They also put you in the position of throwing a 3rd VP (counting the DC & their transport) into the enemy’s teeth in a Purge the Alien mission, and often throwing away your warlord.

As tempting as re-rolls are for DC, you’re better off taking 2 extra guys with power axes instead. For 70pts you get 10 more WS5 S6 AP2 attacks on the charge, or 6 more when the enemy charges you. That gives you a substantially better return on investment than throwing a 100-130 (or possibly even more if you took terminator armor or something) IC into the squad. If you’re really worried about killing walkers or land raiders, put a couple of fists in the squad, either instead of or in addition to the axes.

A better place for your near-obligatory Divination Librarian Warlord is in your backfield, staying alive and enhancing your primary shooty units.

The best delivery system will depend on your local environment and opponents.

Jump packs are overpriced and should not be taken.

A Drop Pod is quite a good one. Really the only time it’s NOT great is when you expect to regularly face GK using Strike Squads or Interceptors. But those are really a minority of GK armies, and Warp Quake still doesn’t protect them if you go first. In general the pod guarantees the DC’s arrival on turn 1, it allows you to spread out and avoid plasma/blast annihilation while still shooting your bolters (or infernus pistols if you really want the DC to be dual-role on the drop), and it’s cheap as chips. It does tend to give up First Blood fairly often though, so it’s best to make sure you have good shooting support in your army to try to get First Blood yourself.

Land Raiders or Storm Ravens are more dependent on what kind of opponents you expect to see, and what other roles you need filled in your army. Both are good delivery options. The LR starts on the table, tends to bounce more different enemy weapons, and acts as a LOS blocker to shield your other units. The Storm Raven has to start in Reserve, but it gives you anti-aircraft firepower. Many armies can shoot it down, but you can eliminate the danger to your DC by dropping them immediately on arrival. A 36” move up the table and dropped out the back is pretty good. You do scatter and will die on a mishap, but with the flexibility of that 36” flyer move from anywhere along the table edge, you can almost always find a safe drop zone, and get right in the enemy’s face even if they’re trying to hang back. Of course, you do land bunched up, so you need to watch out for low-AP blasts or Run to spread out when you land, forgoing your shots that turn.


If you’re investing points in multiple flyers, I strongly recommend the Aegis with Comm Relay, for Reserve re-rolls. It makes them extremely reliable.

 Mannahnin wrote:
A better place for your near-obligatory Divination Librarian Warlord is in your backfield, staying alive and enhancing your primary shooty units.

Okay, I like this advice, its different to my original thinking.

But what kind of HQ (or Why is the Div Librarian mandatory?) and what kind of BA shooty units work well with it.

I don't put my divination libby with a shooty squad. I put them with ASM and add a priest for three ICs with power axes. Deny challenges, you still get two ICs with axes. The divination buffs on ASM are great. Forget the reroll primaris power. You can fall back to that, but the 4++ and the counter attack/full BS on overwatch powers are where its at. Also, ignoring cover with bolt pistols and meltaguns can be fantastic as well. Plus, the reroll power can be cast on *other* squads, so you can throw it on the MM attack bikes the turn you need that LR to go away.

Razerous wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
A better place for your near-obligatory Divination Librarian Warlord is in your backfield, staying alive and enhancing your primary shooty units.

Okay, I like this advice, its different to my original thinking.

But what kind of HQ (or Why is the Div Librarian mandatory?) and what kind of BA shooty units work well with it.

The Div Librarian is "near-obligatory" because Divination is amazing and the Librarian is cheap, which is important because the codex as a whole has suffered some nerfs (FNP is kind of a wash, but Furious Assault is definitely worse), and you usually want to conserve points on your HQ to spend more on units.

Divination works well with basically any shooty unit that's not already twin-linked. So think about your options for squads which put out lots of shots, so as to get the most milleage out of those re-rolls. Devastators or tactical Terminators are probably the most straightforward- they both put out lots of shots and are durable. Squadrons of attack bikes or land speeders are also worth considering. You're going to get the most use out of Prescience when it's cast on a unit rolling a lot of dice. Prescience is especially awesome because it applies to both shooting and HtH, so be sure to have an assault/counter assault unit near the Libby too, so you can use it on them if an enemy gets close. This is another reason which he compliments Tac Terminators well, because he can just stick with the squad and allow them to re-roll their fusilade of storm bolter (and cyclone or assault cannon) shots as they walk up the field or play blocker for your other units, and then he can allow them to re-roll the power fist attacks when they get stuck in. A Sang Priest is also a good value in a squad of terminators, because even a single terminator saved with FNP nearly pays for the priest.

"Suffered some nerfs" is like saying that Hiroshima "kinda got bombed". But I get your sentiment. I still say that the best power in divination is the 4++ save for a whole unit. That hoses so many schemes in 6th its nuts.

I think people feel subjectively like the army got nerfed more than it actually did; part of that feeling is coming from the normal shakeup that nearly every army (Necrons are basically the exception) experienced in the transition to 6th, where your old lists and strategies became obsolete and we were forced to try new things and approaches.

It took me a good 50 games or so to really start to feel comfortable and like I knew what I was doing with 6th. I played those about half and half with Chaos and with Blood Angels. Many of my vehicles hit the shelf pretty fast, but my Storm Ravens became substantially better and more reliable than they used to be. Tactical Marines suddenly became a useful and valued option. Attack Bikes got even better than they were. Etc.

I agree that Divination is chock-full of good powers. The 4++ power is amazing in assault, especially combined with FNP now working against AP2 and rending. The ignore cover power can be stupid good. The one to make an enemy unit re-roll successful saves can be redonkulously brutal. Take terminator armor and/or a storm shield on your Librarian, and even the "psyker can re-roll everything in assault" power, which is normally a disappointment, suddenly makes him an incredible tank for the unit in close combat. Just the fact that they get Divination offsets some of the bad things BA suffered.

Yes, but Space Cheese (Wolves) get divination as well. Tack on some allied Vendettas, and there's no reason to ever field BA over Space Cheese, except the case of having an entire BA army like I do.

The BA had plenty of trap units in 5th, ie units that look cool, but cost way too much for their in game utility. With the nerfs to HTH, and FC, BA trap units got even trappier. My buddy who who plays BA is not quite as rigourous in his list building as I am and got shot off the table in three turn by the Necrons. The situation is extra humiliating when you realize just how many foes the BA can not handle in CC now.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, but Space Cheese (Wolves) get divination as well. Tack on some allied Vendettas, and there's no reason to ever field BA over Space Cheese, except the case of having an entire BA army like I do.

Maybe if you want lots of jump packs and FNP on all your troops and... Scout Bikers. Actually, I'd love some Scout Bikers with my Wolves, no matter how dumb that idea is haha.

Scout bikers aren't too bad. I don't own any, and I'm broke, or I'd experiment with them some more. But the grey hunter and the 4+ psychic negation thing are just over the top. And they make the BA look like guardsmen HTH across the board. Not very fluff accurate......

What the're good for is having a 3-5 of them with 1 or 2 thunder hammers and jump packs and use them for vehicle smashing duty.

Mhmm, honestly I kind of wish that Wolves would get a new Codex just to balance them out a bit (halve Runic Weapon ranges, make Grey Hunters ~16 or 17pts and/or make their equipment more expensive, make the codex internally balanced, etc).

No, because then you'd just be in the same boat as the BA against GK, IG, Necron, CSM. I only singled out the Space Wolves because they are so much better at what the BA are supposed to be able to do well, which is HTH. If GW had just FAQed the point costs as well, it would be fine. But they don't do that, so the BA are hosed.

I actually like using DC with jumpacks, bolters, and power swords and axes. I take 9 and drop them, shoot something viable and kill with CC if need be.

Martel732 wrote:
Scout bikers aren't too bad. I don't own any, and I'm broke, or I'd experiment with them some more. But the grey hunter and the 4+ psychic negation thing are just over the top. And they make the BA look like guardsmen HTH across the board. Not very fluff accurate......

Death Company chump them in HtH pretty well. GH are more efficient than assault marines, point for point, but we get more mobility. If you're worried about the head to head matchup with SW, that's also a place Mephiston still works quite well.

If you're broke, and haven't been able to change your lists substantially to incorporate different units in 6th, I am not surprised that you are feeling badly nerfed. You really have to make changes to adapt to the new edition.

 Mannahnin wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Scout bikers aren't too bad. I don't own any, and I'm broke, or I'd experiment with them some more. But the grey hunter and the 4+ psychic negation thing are just over the top. And they make the BA look like guardsmen HTH across the board. Not very fluff accurate......

Death Company chump them in HtH pretty well. GH are more efficient than assault marines, point for point, but we get more mobility. If you're worried about the head to head matchup with SW, that's also a place Mephiston still works quite well.

If you're broke, and haven't been able to change your lists substantially to incorporate different units in 6th, I am not surprised that you are feeling badly nerfed. You really have to make changes to adapt to the new edition.

I just find myself hard pressed to justify playing this game over something like Starcraft, where they actually care about player input. And I don't know if it was by design or not, but I'm buying 400 dollars of plastic to "compete".

It's not head to head against Space Wolves. It's that they can build much better TAC lists because their base trooper is anti-horde out of the box.

I can't stand most videogames, so I have more motivation to work on my analog armies.

I wouldn't say SW make better TAC lists. They have better antiinfantry in their Troops, but they don't have any flyers of their own. The two armies have different strengths; but they've both got access to allies too.

Unfortunately, the ally mechanic removes this limitation for the wolves. Plus, the Vendetta is so underpriced they come out ahead of the Stormraven in that arena as well. Granted, the most common is a squadron of two, but that's still one flyer dead a turn, which is all the Space Wolves really care about.

So, yes, I can make a Space Wolf/IG TAC list that will fare far better than BA plus any possible ally. GW has made the BA a joke compared to the fluff.


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Also, unfortunately, this is not limited to the Space Wolves. The vanilla marines can out shoot us and CSM also makes us look like children with their HTH options available.

You play all of these armies?

Against them. I only own BA. Was gonna get a few smurf allies, but now I'm not sure.