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So, having recently sold my 3rd ed Blood Angels army, I am (of course) looking hard at starting a new Blood Angels army. The irony is not at all lost on me.

I'm enthralled by the idea of a full jumper list. My current main army is Mech Tau, and it's fun, but can be an uphill slog so often. I want something lighter, faster, and more resilient on average. So I'm looking at a full-up Dantewing: Dante with 4-5 squads of Sanguinary Guard, a Libby, some Sanguinary Priests. Possibly 1-2 Fragnoughts in Drop Pods for support, even though it breaks the theme... I'd add Libby Dreads, but they just don't look to be that effective for their price. Winged Dreads do sound pretty cool, though.

What advice does Dakka have for running Dantewing lists? I can already see issues with fighting mech gunlines, hordes, or lots of Terminators... how do you deal with those issues, especially without straying too far from a jump-centric, Sanguinary Guard centric list?

Well, if you are looking for competetive, well, look somewhere else.

However, Dantewing can be very fun and, when played right, effective.

For individual squads I recommend a powerfist, chapter banner and a couple of infernus pistols.

Try to take at LEAST 3 of these squads before fleshing out the list, troops win games.

this is just a huge waste of points. you could field a 10 ASM squad for less than the 5 Sang Guard. 2+ is awesome, but BA really needs as many bodies on the board as possble. Plus the ASM do it better than the guard.

I'm not saying that they are bad with Dante, only there is no need to take more than one Sang Guard pick. Expensive troop picks take away from your body count.

My suggestion: If your going to jumpy, use regular ASM squads.

The army looks cool sounds fun but it is not particularly competitive

Plasma wrecks the sanguinary guard and boy do people love plasma in 6th.

lulz while that's true, I have been playing this guy whose guard would constantly fire off assloads of plasma and his luck with gets hot is hilarious at times, with the squad being all but completely destroyed by 1's XD

You really can't count on that. Ever. Plasma is devastating to meqs and particularly teqs.

Thanks for the replies.

I'm aware that low body count is an issue; that said, I do want to run a SG-heavy list. The question I'm looking to answer is given that restriction, how best to go about it.

Plasma / melta, especially given their prevalence these days due to the meta, is definitely a problem. It's more of a problem because of the low model count issue inherent in running an elite infantry list - relying on a 2+ save doesn't help you much against AP2/AP1 shots. It's easier to use cover when you're fielding smaller, faster units - and FNP from SPs definitely helps, which mitigates the plasma / melta threat to some degree. What I struggle with, is whether the increased survivability from small arms fire and survivability in CC against any non-PF/TH carrying assault units outweighs the increased vulnerability that low model count and plasma prevalence brings.

I recognize that SG lists aren't terribly competitive, and I'm fine with that - running a themed list restricts your options, and that reduces flexibility. What I'm hoping to gain is some idea of how to be as flexible / TAC as possible while maintaining that theme.

Martel732 wrote:
You really can't count on that. Ever. Plasma is devastating to meqs and particularly teqs.

Yeah, this. If plasma wasn't as dominant this edition, Sanguinary Guard might be totally viable. They're only marginally more expensive than Assault Marines, but have 2+ saves and Power Weapons, so they're taking half as much damage on average and causing far more damage in assault. However, they're relying on those 2+ saves badly, and the presence of AP2 weapons is a really hard counter to them. If you're facing AP2 en masse, then your best bet is going to be cover + FNP rolls to save your skin (4+ or 5+ cover and a 5+ FNP roll are surprisingly durable).

Exactly how many plasma heavy units are people running these days? More specifically, how many plasma guns are people rocking in their armies? With DoA, I feel specific models are easy to target and remove with wound saturation. I'm not saying we can remove all plasma from the table by the end of turn 2, but cmon guys...we can't just say that because people may have plasma guns that 5 units of 2+ armor save jump infantry with potential FnP are rubbish. The only time that's the case is in a vacuum, or here on super negative forums.

I would not say that they are rubbish. i would simply say it is a fluffy build for those who want to have fun. However at tournaments many AP 2 weapons are spammed.

Veskrashen wrote:What I struggle with, is whether the increased survivability from small arms fire and survivability in CC against any non-PF/TH carrying assault units outweighs the increased vulnerability that low model count and plasma prevalence brings.

This is ultimately the largest issue with pure Dantewing. Since you cannot increase the unit size, definitely bring along priests. The argument is a little different with Assault marines. I think Dante and 2 units of SG with units of Assault marines is the better way to go.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You really can't count on that. Ever. Plasma is devastating to meqs and particularly teqs.

Yeah, this. If plasma wasn't as dominant this edition, Sanguinary Guard might be totally viable. They're only marginally more expensive than Assault Marines, but have 2+ saves and Power Weapons, so they're taking half as much damage on average and causing far more damage in assault. However, they're relying on those 2+ saves badly, and the presence of AP2 weapons is a really hard counter to them. If you're facing AP2 en masse, then your best bet is going to be cover + FNP rolls to save your skin (4+ or 5+ cover and a 5+ FNP roll are surprisingly durable).

You see this sentiment a lot. AP2 is threat to everything. Plasma is more prevalent now because 2+ is more common. There was always lots of melta in 5th edition yet people never said "don't bring tanks".

I say do it and shut the internet up. I am so tired of hearing the idiotic plasma argument.

Yes plasma kills 2+ saves, but no not that many armies can spam tons of plasma.

Take Necrons, orks, eldar, DE, sisters, GK, tyranids and even tau for example...

I mean WTF guys aside from plasma vets, oblit spam, and stern guard it is not that prevalent. In most SW lists you see 3 GH squads, two with double plasma and one meltas... OMG that's a woping 4 PG! Meanwhile my wolf list packs 15 missiles from long fangs that those guys laugh at from double the range!

Am I saying its going to be a wrecking ball of a list? No, but it may shock his local meta very hard while being cool as feth to model and play.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I say do it and shut the internet up. I am so tired of hearing the idiotic plasma argument.

Yes plasma kills 2+ saves, but no not that many armies can spam tons of plasma.

Take Necrons, orks, eldar, DE, sisters, GK, tyranids and even tau for example...

I mean WTF guys aside from plasma vets, oblit spam, and stern guard it is not that prevalent. In most SW lists you see 3 GH squads, two with double plasma and one meltas... OMG that's a woping 4 PG! Meanwhile my wolf list packs 15 missiles from long fangs that those guys laugh at from double the range!

Am I saying its going to be a wrecking ball of a list? No, but it may shock his local meta very hard while being cool as feth to model and play.

...and then his local meta will start to run more plasma I imagine.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
I say do it and shut the internet up. I am so tired of hearing the idiotic plasma argument.

Yes plasma kills 2+ saves, but no not that many armies can spam tons of plasma.

Take Necrons, orks, eldar, DE, sisters, GK, tyranids and even tau for example...

I mean WTF guys aside from plasma vets, oblit spam, and stern guard it is not that prevalent. In most SW lists you see 3 GH squads, two with double plasma and one meltas... OMG that's a woping 4 PG! Meanwhile my wolf list packs 15 missiles from long fangs that those guys laugh at from double the range!

Am I saying its going to be a wrecking ball of a list? No, but it may shock his local meta very hard while being cool as feth to model and play.

...and then his local meta will start to run more plasma I imagine.

So your point is not to bother taking anything that others can overcome by spending more money? Good job, go sit in the corner and stop playing I guess because this has always been the case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also note the 8 examples I gave that totally lack the option to take more plasma

 Red Corsair wrote:
I say do it and shut the internet up. I am so tired of hearing the idiotic plasma argument.

Yes plasma kills 2+ saves, but no not that many armies can spam tons of plasma.

Take Necrons, orks, eldar, DE, sisters, GK, tyranids and even tau for example...

I mean WTF guys aside from plasma vets, oblit spam, and stern guard it is not that prevalent. In most SW lists you see 3 GH squads, two with double plasma and one meltas... OMG that's a woping 4 PG! Meanwhile my wolf list packs 15 missiles from long fangs that those guys laugh at from double the range!

Am I saying its going to be a wrecking ball of a list? No, but it may shock his local meta very hard while being cool as feth to model and play.

That's your mistake for taking weak sauce MLs. A good SW list will decimate a Dantewing list trivially. I assume people wouldn't be posting on here if they just wanted "cool". If "cool" is your criteria, just plays what's "cool" and ignore the W-L columns. That's what I do when I play zerg in Starcraft, but that's a button click decision, not a hundreds of painting hours decision. He has the right to know if his face is gonna be stomped in every game before he buys and paints.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And by the way, this kind of list is exactly why I think plasma should be AP 3 and krak missiles AP 2. Makes a hell of a lot more sense to me. If you want to pop the 2+ armor, you get one shot only per gun.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
I say do it and shut the internet up. I am so tired of hearing the idiotic plasma argument.

Yes plasma kills 2+ saves, but no not that many armies can spam tons of plasma.

Take Necrons, orks, eldar, DE, sisters, GK, tyranids and even tau for example...

I mean WTF guys aside from plasma vets, oblit spam, and stern guard it is not that prevalent. In most SW lists you see 3 GH squads, two with double plasma and one meltas... OMG that's a woping 4 PG! Meanwhile my wolf list packs 15 missiles from long fangs that those guys laugh at from double the range!

Am I saying its going to be a wrecking ball of a list? No, but it may shock his local meta very hard while being cool as feth to model and play.

...and then his local meta will start to run more plasma I imagine.

So your point is not to bother taking anything that others can overcome by spending more money? Good job, go sit in the corner and stop playing I guess because this has always been the case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also note the 8 examples I gave that totally lack the option to take more plasma

Haha, I was being a bit of a dick admittedly, but of those options, how many people do you play which use Orks, Eldar or Sisters? As for Nids, their monstrous creatures will mulch Sanguinary Guard easily. Admittedly, Necrons and GK will have trouble with Sanguinary Guard, but that's 2 fairly common armies. Every other MEQ force and Guard can easily bring enough plasma to ruin a Sanguinary Guard lists' day. That said, they're a fun build, I just don't think that the risk is worth it because they can be hard-countered easily.

Man, what a -fest.

Yes, plasma hammers 2+ saves, we all know that. I'm not looking to make the most uber competitive list, I know small numbers of SGs aren't going to be able to make that happen.

Assume this as a core:

Dante
Jump Libby
2x Sanguinary Priests
4x Sanguinary Guard, one with a Standard. Assume 2-4 PFs and 2 special pistols per squad.

Brings it up to roughly 1500pts, depending on options.

If we assume that as a core, what would be good to add / modify / delete to make it most effective? If we specify it has to be jump capable or DS capable, how does that change things? What do we need to add in to make sure it can at least have a halfway sporting chance against the whole threat spectrum, knowing in advance that spam lists will be a problem (i.e. Croissantiwing, Deathwing, LR spam, all mech gunline lists, green tide)?

The rest is up to preferences. I personally would take plasma Honor Guard with Dante. Above 1500, I try to always have a unit of scouts or something that isn't a 200-point unit to babysit a home objective. And then there is always the anti-air question, to Stormraven or quad gun or not.

Drop pod fragnought can help even the odds a bit for hordes. For fliers? I've got nothing for you. Another issues with the SG is that it is cost efficient to fire Vendettas at them. That's usually people's reason as to why the Vendetta is not broken as hell: "It can only kill three models a turn!" Well, that' great for Orks, but for lists like this, it's a nightmare.

Would it be worth ignoring the anti-air problem? It seems to be a viable solution, in several ways. First, with smaller units as is the case with an SG-centric list, if should be easier to put them in cover to get saves if needed (i.e. against Doomscythes, StormRavens/Talons, Vendettas). Second, a fully jump list should be able to exploit their movement restrictions to limit the amount of fire they're exposed to. Third, with 2+ saves, they're threatened a lot less by things like Vector Strikes or Hellchickens. And since flyers aren't scoring or contesting, that leaves less on the board that is... which allows the SG to focus on reducing that sooner rather than later.

As far as home objectives, are they worth camping? If I get to choose where "my" objectives are placed, there's not necessarily a reason to place them in my own deployment zone, is there? Especially with a high mobility army. Are there advantages to be gained by not using any camping units, and relying on the ability to move to cover as needed and to knock units off objectives via assault or other means? SG can really hammer most non-horde non-termie troop choices, so is that a viable option?

I've been thinking about adding DPodding Fragnoughts to the list, and just ignoring the air side of the equation altogether. Given the prevalence of quadguns and ADLs, I can always assault and take the enemy's quadgun if I really need one, after all.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I say do it and shut the internet up. I am so tired of hearing the idiotic plasma argument.

Yes plasma kills 2+ saves, but no not that many armies can spam tons of plasma.

Take Necrons, orks, eldar, DE, sisters, GK, tyranids and even tau for example...

I mean WTF guys aside from plasma vets, oblit spam, and stern guard it is not that prevalent. In most SW lists you see 3 GH squads, two with double plasma and one meltas... OMG that's a woping 4 PG! Meanwhile my wolf list packs 15 missiles from long fangs that those guys laugh at from double the range!

Am I saying its going to be a wrecking ball of a list? No, but it may shock his local meta very hard while being cool as feth to model and play.

I wouldn't include DE in the list that cannot spam lots of AP2 weapons. Ravagers/Raiders with either Dark Lances or Disintegrator Cannons, Trueborn with Dark Lances and Blasters, Scourge with Dark Lances, Razorwings with either Dark Lances or Disintegrator Cannons. The Liquifiers also do a Template attack that is AP2 IIRC. If I had the codex in front of my I could go on an on with the units that can get AP2 weapons. Two of which are good at AT and denying the FNP option as they are Strength 8 AP2 Lance weapons so AV 13-14 becomes AV 12. When I played DE I had a squad of Trueborn with 4 blasters, 2 dark lances, 4 Shard Carbines and 2 Splinter Rifles riding in a raider with a discintegrator cannon on it. All shots coming with BS 4 and wounding on 4s at worst in most cases. And that's just ranged weapons. DE have at least two melee weapons that I can think of that give AP 2 Incubi's Klaive/Demi-Klaive and the Harlequins Kiss. Then there are the razorwing flocks that have rending as well. If a DE player wanted to field an anti 2+ army it would not be hard for them to do so.

Edit:
Sorry for the side note above and back to the topic at hand. I do believe that this army sounds like fun to build, paint, and play. That being said I would also agree that I would not rely entirely on SG and include some bigger squads of Assault Marines. It sounds like above all you will have to play smart with the army you are putting together. Your obvious target priority would be the units that can bypass your 2+ armor save. As for anti-tank, take infernus pistols, melta's and melta bombs where possible? As for anti-flier I don't know enough about Blood Angels to suggest a strong counter other than your mobility. Position yourself wisely and you should be able to limit the effectiveness of the enemy's fliers. Try to keep engaged in combat to avoid being caught out in the open when the flyers arrive. That is if you are planning on playing an all jump army.

A lot of people forget one thing when theorycrafting how to take down a list like this... you can't fire at a unit that's in combat. Consider NOT deep-striking, but instead deploy carefully to make maximum use of cover and deploy on a refused flank to overwhelm one segment of the battlefield. Then get stuck in - your aim is to keep in combat as often as possible. Don't forget that Dante can use Hit and Run if you need to engage a unit that looks like it's lining up for you finishing a combat on your own turn.

Otherwise, make sure you take enough Priests to get FNP across the board - Stormravens and Dreadnoughts can be good for distracting a lot of the heavier firepower as well. I wouldn't use the former as a transport for the SG, though - it's too much of a risk to lose a chunk of your force if your opponent DOES get that lucky explode shot. Lastly, Honour Guard are still fluffy enough to include as Veterans and can take 4x a special weapon of your choice to give you an option other than combat.

Curiously enough, winning a combat on the assault turn is normally how my SG get smoked. It's their reward for winning in a single turn. I actually prefer to fight ATSKNF troops rather than regular guys for this reason. In that way, ATSKNF is a nerf, not a buff.

Veskrashen wrote:
Would it be worth ignoring the anti-air problem? It seems to be a viable solution, in several ways. First, with smaller units as is the case with an SG-centric list, if should be easier to put them in cover to get saves if needed (i.e. against Doomscythes, StormRavens/Talons, Vendettas).

Yes, perfectly valid tactic. The 12" jump infantry movement really helps keep you out of firing arcs of most stuff. I always pre-measure where the flier has to go and try to get to a spot outside its radius. This is more difficult with things like the Doom Scythe, but just make sure your dudes are not in a can-can line. Dante and SG eat up a lot of points so it is perfectly fine to try to avoid another point sink in the Stormraven.