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 captain collius wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
I see them adding allies for sure.

*Groan*

I expect it too, maybe even being able to buy terrain pieces, but I really think it is a stupid idea. (I assume) It works in 40k because it is a squad level game and half the factions are Imperial anyway, I really don't think it should be implemented in fantasy beyond the rules for team games we already have. An Imperial Guard company with a squad of space wolves backing them up makes perfect sense, a massive high elf army army with a few dwarves following along not so much.

Yeah in fantasy i would expect a lot fewer allies working together. The forces in Fantasy are just far less likely to do so. However bringing back Dogs of War maybe and Kislev would be much appreciated.

I'd actually see the Fantasy Factions allying better than 40k.

High Elves, Dwarves, Empire- ally at several major points in fluff.

Chaos Demons, Warriors, and Beasts- Will fight under the command of the same powerful warlord.

Wood Elves, Brettonians- not as friendly as the "Big three", but could easily find themselves allying if necessary.

Dark Elves, Tomb Kings, Vampires: While I could only see these guys allying on occasion, I would not rule out the possability... if it suited them.

Ogres: Will work for food or gold.

Orcs+Skaven: Don't see these guys really allying with anyone- but they may attack in the same direction.

 Grey Templar wrote:
9th edition will probably be 8.5 more than anything else.

that's pretty much what I'm hoping for.

A lot of the suggestions in this thread are nice - monsters = 2 ranks, flanking cav can break steadfast 1st rnd of CC, very limited allies rules, etc. For me, maybe make charging 1d6 + March, fleeing units that are caught can only be destroyed if charging unit has a full rank or equal models or something.

8th is my first WHFB edition and I absolutely love it. I'd hate to see drastic changes to the rules in my relatively young WHFB career!

I think if they were to make rules for allies, they could make a new rule called "Signature Units" that would mean that particular unit can only be taken by the Parent Army book. Certain warmachines, monsters and elite infantry could be given this rule, perhaps?

This would maintain the integrity of the Army books and allow detachments of allied armies to augment a particular force but still prevent taking combos that break the system, such as the always mentioned cannons.

The only time this rule would be waived is for Grand Battles or whatever they tried calling their attempt at WHFB Apocalypse in White Dwarf a few years ago.

I think if there is a chance of a 9th ed coming out next year then the best plce to look will be army books coming out later in the year or early next year. Also i would love flanking cav to break steadfast first round of combat, in fact its a house rule at a club i play. It does unfortunatly have a sideaffect of MSU cavalry (especially cheap, points wise) being spammed.

Oh, man... I forgot about flying high!

I suspect allies rules like in Storm of Magic.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:


I'd actually see the Fantasy Factions allying better than 40k.

High Elves, Dwarves, Empire- ally at several major points in fluff.

Chaos Demons, Warriors, and Beasts- Will fight under the command of the same powerful warlord.

Wood Elves, Brettonians- not as friendly as the "Big three", but could easily find themselves allying if necessary.

Dark Elves, Tomb Kings, Vampires: While I could only see these guys allying on occasion, I would not rule out the possability... if it suited them.

Ogres: Will work for food or gold.

Orcs+Skaven: Don't see these guys really allying with anyone- but they may attack in the same direction.

Don't worry, with the 6th edition in 40k, GW has proven they do not care for any fluff at all and just randomly throw alliances together. Even alliances where you can't see your ally fluff-wise. Yup.

I don't think this is the place to complain about 40k 6th edition.

 thenoobbomb wrote:
I don't think this is the place to complain about 40k 6th edition.

No, but this is the place to discuss potential changes in WHFB. 40k appears to be another game GW makes (iirc) and could thus serve as an indicator for possible changes in WHFB as well - and allies seem like a sure thing to be added in 9th.

Allies seem to be a sure thing. As I said:

thenoobbomb wrote:I suspect allies rules like in Storm of Magic.

In Storm of Magic you could form a pact with Daemons, VC and Tomb Kings, wich had restrictions. I guess the new WHFB ally system will be a bit like that.

Well regarding allies I kind of prefer something a bit more in depth than the "current" fantasy ally system of good, bad, and neutral (aside from a few factions being REALLY backstabby)

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Allies seem to be a sure thing. As I said:

thenoobbomb wrote:I suspect allies rules like in Storm of Magic.

In Storm of Magic you could form a pact with Daemons, VC and Tomb Kings, wich had restrictions. I guess the new WHFB ally system will be a bit like that.

I'm assuming it to be broader, especially in regards to it allowing alliances between commonly played armies - same thing happened in 40k where GK were suddenly able to ally with (almost) everyone. I'm expecting sth. similar in WHFB.

Storm of Magic parallels are good ones to make. Though I don't know SoM very well, I can tell the monsters from the newer armybooks (Empire, WoC) are designed along similar lines as SoM, with characterful / devastating upgrades, etc. I could see an ally system likewise drawn from this.

Still not happy about it though

- Salvage

Allies would work a lot better in fantasy then in 40k if done fluffy. For instance empire would be battle brothers with dwarfs and high elves allies of convenience with ogres and tomb kings desperate allies with orks dark elves wood elves and bretonia and apocalypse with everyone else


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forgot lizards they'd be convenience

Desperate with Bretonnia?

I'd say the very least allies of convenience

I thought the same but people were saying that they're to honourable to ally

Allies will likely appear - which is good - as noted above there are many races / armies that work together if they have to. Hopefully it will be better handled in terms of the fluff than 40k…………..

my initial thoughts

High Elves, Dwarves, Empire
Usually good aliies but have been know to fight each other..........

Chaos Demons, Warriors, and Beasts-
agree will fight under the command of the same powerful warlord/Demon/
and often find short term alliances with the Skaven and Orcs

Wood Elves, Brettonians
Wood Elves will ally if they have to and Bretonians go on Crusades IIRC to aid others (or conquere them)

Dark Elves,
Dangerous but powerful allies – Chaos can work with them – especially if Morathi is involved, or they can drive the Orcs/Beastmen before them as a screen

Tomb Kings, Vampires:
Both have no liking for Orcs and actively combat Chaos – most Vampires in particular are not keen on their food source being turned into mewling chaos spawn with acid for blood, except maybe Necrarachs and they are insane and just want everything Dead.

Ogres: Will work for food or gold.
Yep

Orcs+Skaven:
Orcs – well if they turn up and there is a fight going on – they will just get stuck in – plus you can manipulate them into attacking your enemies if you are clever (and lucky)

Skaven are tricksy but they will fight “with” their “inferiors” – ie anyone else and then turn on them – maybe have a table to roll on after the battle to see what they do


Other things

Buying fortifications seems likely - again good and will fit in with:

Missions more suited to tactical play - ie actually claiming objectives or similar as in 40k would seem to be likely and again a positive move.

I hope they will drop magic in power somewhat..............

Really? Why does this thread exist? As I said in the Starter Box thread, we're still 16 months away, it's very hard to predict something as predictable as the starter set, so it's nigh impossible to predict the rules. We already know that GW never really go in any direction with their rules. They don't really listen to our feedback, or change things that need to be changed. We can say what we want, think or should change, but guessing the actual contents is a complete stab in the dark.

The only thing we have to go on is GW's attitude in general (i.e. sell stuff) and the 6th Edition 40k rules. By this logic, one of the few fairly safe guesses is that there'll be an option to buy loads of terrain for your army and a rehaul of the allies mechanics, like the 40k one, meaning you can take a contingent of High Elves in your normal Empire army, as if they were units from your own list, for example.

I think if they add allies, it'll be just like the current Alliance rules for team games. If any thing, just limit it to Order and Destruction only being able to ally w/ themselves and the 2 Neutral armies. I think in order to balance it, maybe limit it to 1 Core choice and 1 Special or Rare choice from the allying army.

I imagine allies would exist along the same lines of the Warhammer MMORPG they came out with a couple years back, Humans High Elves, Dwarves for order and DE, WoC etc for Destruction or whatever it was. Personally if they were to add an ally system I would rather see a Dogs of War system, where everyone is restricted to the same choices from mercenaries for allied list, thereby preserving army integrity while still being able to fill gaps or alter your play style with mercenaries (not to mention some of the potentially baller models they can make for mercenaries).

As far as rules I would like to see in 9th ed;
1. Spears get some sort of benefit versult cavalry/mc/beasts
2. Cavalry buff in some way on the turn the charge, negating steadfast or something similar

Allies simply mean more sales of different armies so its logical for them to include it in the next edition. Each army book that comes out will have "must have" units that you will want to add to your core army and so its all good for their sales.

From a fluff point of view - most armies can and have allied with most other armies in "history" so no issue there.

Even "Forces of Order" versus "Forces of Destruction" is not the whole story.

I simply don't like allies because I can't ally my count as empire army. My empire army is converted to be dead, raised back from the ground, but different from VC as its not a vampire in control, but a corrupted arch lector. Because of this, my empire is evil. It wouldn't make sense for this army to take dwarves or high elves as allies as they're religious zealots.

Then you wouldn't

However If the Arch Lector can raise the human dead to fight for him - why could he not do the same with the Elves and Dwarves (my VC army has both) if you wanted to use some other stuff now and again?

Because he is not physically raising them. Thier religion is. Long lore story.

I also don't like most HE and Dwarves models. Part of the reason empire works is the models themselves. Skulls are a large part of the empire models, which helps make the switch from neutral-good to neutral-bad possible.

Allies are impossible to balance is it feths with creativity and multiple books. If my empire is dead, why can't it work with VC? Surely this could work in the lore. If the god my arch lector turned to before his (first) death was malal, why can't I take unmarked WoC as allies? Why can't I let demons be my allies as they're all working together in the effort to destroy order?

Set allies, specifically rules about allies in casual/competitive play, ruins the fun of the game for me. I will likely not play with allies, and not participate in tournaments that have them. Why should I buy two books to play one army? Why should I have to invest in a second army, specifically one I may not be interested in to remain competitive with one that I am interested in?

Stoupe wrote:
If my empire is dead, why can't it work with VC? Surely this could work in the lore.

I think you're kind-of missing the point that this situation is already covered in the lore of the game. Technically ALL of the VC units are Empire, or Brettonia, or whatever. The backstory of the more general WHFB says that, in this universe, when an arch lector turns evil he essentially becomes a necromancer or master necromancer... which you can find the rules for in the VC book. Further, necromancy is sort-of inherently limited, and you can't get braindead zombies to correctly operate cannons. So the dead (now undead) cannon operators just become zombies and you purchase them as melee troops from the VC core section, and that's why there's no cannons. Or whatever. So, what happens when Empire goes evil? It becomes VC. In WHFB, that's what happens.

You're basically writing your own story and then wanting the game, which already has a story, to conform to you. That doesn't seem reasonable to me.

Stoupe wrote:
Because he is not physically raising them. Thier religion is. Long lore story.

I also don't like most HE and Dwarves models. Part of the reason empire works is the models themselves. Skulls are a large part of the empire models, which helps make the switch from neutral-good to neutral-bad possible.

Allies are impossible to balance is it feths with creativity and multiple books. If my empire is dead, why can't it work with VC? Surely this could work in the lore. If the god my arch lector turned to before his (first) death was malal, why can't I take unmarked WoC as allies? Why can't I let demons be my allies as they're all working together in the effort to destroy order?

Set allies, specifically rules about allies in casual/competitive play, ruins the fun of the game for me. I will likely not play with allies, and not participate in tournaments that have them. Why should I buy two books to play one army? Why should I have to invest in a second army, specifically one I may not be interested in to remain competitive with one that I am interested in?

Firstly - if you create your own army background its not really fair to complain when this conflicts with the lore of the main world.

Allies don't mess up creativity - why would they? They give additional options for story, fluff and collecting. At present creativity is highly constrained by NOT allowing allies, IMO

If your Empire is the dead risen from some religious power - then Demons do indeed sound like great allies - they may look like manifestations fo whatever God your Empire worships but still work as Demons. Hopefully the allies rules will allow lots of fun combinations that allow you to expand your lore so yes you can incoprorate Demons, Vampires or whatever. The whole inherient weaknesses/styles of armies is fading anyway as they are adding units to all armies that cover some of these and usually the people who argue this have the largest selection of units in their chosen army in my experience...........

Your choice not to use them as ever, but I can't see GW not doing it as it makes commercial sense and its worked for them in 40K I don't agree with all the allies rules in that system myself - there are IMO, major cock ups with the allies table.

 Tangent wrote:
You're basically writing your own story and then wanting the game, which already has a story, to conform to you. That doesn't seem reasonable to me.

Your missing the point. I'm not asking the game to conform to me. I'm asking to not be restricted. There are alot of players like me, who convert and change their armies to write their own stories. This is part of the fun for players. They take bits and pieces of lore that has been written. In my case, its a combination of the lore written behind The Great War of Chaos, the lore behind Archaon (as the Everchosen is rumored to be a former warrior priest), and the formerly supported Chaotic God of Malal. But the story behind my army is not the point. The fact that there is a story behind my army is. Many players like to do the same thing as me and theme their army around a certain time period or story in the lore

The problem with the allies system is it removes all creativity. X army can only work with Y army because the main lore supports it. It creates it more difficult to theme armies together behind a larger story. A lot of beautiful armies done in this manor becomes obsolete. Perhaps you've designed your good army to be evil, or perhaps you've designed your evil army to have turned good. The problem with this type of system is that it is one which restricts a lot of creative ideas in a hobby that prides itself on being creative.

I honestly don't see an ally system working in the lore of WHFB either. Think about it. There is no mass travel in our world. There are a few battles here and there where factions worked together, but on the most part it was too difficult. Why? Because travel takes months or years to reach across oceans and many miles. The only reason Dwarves and Empire worked well is because they're in the same general locale. High Elves rarely, stepped in to help out because it would take months to get to them, months to get back, and by then the battle would be over. Lizardmen hardly allies with anyone due to the insular nature of both their culture and their terrain. 40k allies work, because these armies have had a history of working together, and because of the mass transit available in the lore. Here, It does not.

Thats your fault, not the game designers. You are the one that wrote yourself into a corner with no way out, and you are deliberatly limiting yourself to not allow for Elves and Dwarves to be raised from the dead alongside the Empire.

If your empire is dead then just convert dead units of other armies. Although no one is forcing you to use allies either.

And the travel issue isn't really an issue you could just imagine that it is one of the times that they ally

The problem with the allies system is it removes all creativity. X army can only work with Y army because the main lore supports it. It creates it more difficult to theme armies together behind a larger story. A lot of beautiful armies done in this manor becomes obsolete. Perhaps you've designed your good army to be evil, or perhaps you've designed your evil army to have turned good. The problem with this type of system is that it is one which restricts a lot of creative ideas in a hobby that prides itself on being creative.

Can't see this at all - my own Vampire Counts army is based around a Lahmiran Vampire assembling allies to fight against the forces of Chaos in the North - not cos she is "good" but to protect her food source. I can do it with the present rules - but ith allies I could also add to the army with forces she has acquired. Its not more difficult with allies, it just gives you new options IF you want to use them.

I honestly don't see an ally system working in the lore of WHFB either. Think about it. There is no mass travel in our world. There are a few battles here and there where factions worked together, but on the most part it was too difficult. Why? Because travel takes months or years to reach across oceans and many miles. The only reason Dwarves and Empire worked well is because they're in the same general locale. High Elves rarely, stepped in to help out because it would take months to get to them, months to get back, and by then the battle would be over. Lizardmen hardly allies with anyone due to the insular nature of both their culture and their terrain. 40k allies work, because these armies have had a history of working together, and because of the mass transit available in the lore. Here, It does not.

Sorry but this is nonsense - the armies of the Warhammer World are just as likely to ally against a common foe as were the armies of the ancient world or medievil Europe - which is of course what Warhammer is partly based on - look at the shifting allliances and empires in that world and its wars and just chnage the names of countries to those of different races. Consider that you also add in magical communciaitons, flying monsters etc - going to war without allies often resulted in defeat by those who did have them. There are lots of times different armies work together - Chaos and Orks fight together as much as against each other. Dwarves and the Empire are steadfast allies, Elves have aided the empire and fought aginst them. In the fluff there some odd alliances - Vampires, Humans and Dwarves against Orks (Neferata). Lizardmen and Humans against the Undead. Humans and Skaven against Humans (that ended well ).

re the months to travel - well yes and wars can takes years to fight or longer - plus the major conflicts in the world tend to draw in everyone else around - you choose a side or you are crushed by one or both of the main participants

Oh and skaven do have mass transit systems as well !