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So I've been playing much better with my 'Guard army. I established a decent core group of units, and I've been adding a few tailored units atop that each game. I've also run the Sisters of Battle as allies a few times now - they seem ok. At times the Seraphim are ripping up vehicles and the Cannonness is soloing small units in CC. At other times they got shot to pieces, so it's hit and miss.

Anyway - whether I play an air-tight 'Guard list or something completely ridiculous, I'm finding that my opponents are often winning or losing because one of us played a wildly unbalanced list. Sadly in our meta game, I feel as though I can see the outcome of the games before they begin, and it's rock-paper-scissors. For instance, last night, I fought a DE player - typically there are plenty of raiders on the field, and talos pain engines are common. I play IG, so I came with auto cannons and things to deal with talos and raiders (nothing to take on a horde). He deployed a horde of beasts, wyches and harlequins... covering his entire deployment zone like a tyranid horde. Honestly, I think I did the best with what I had, but I couldn't get ahead, and he destroyed me.

I suppose the best way to solve this is a tournament. If everyone had 1 list, they would be forced to build a reliable rounded list. They couldn't surprise people with unexpected spam. Right?

So I have 2 questions. First, what is your experience with your META game, to keep people's lists from getting extreme. Secondly, is it possible to beat the odds using a 'take all comers' list, and actually beat players who capitalize into one strength? Maybe I need to a get more basic, and prepare to take on anything. In the case of last night, I was ready to take on SOME horde element, but not an entire army of infantry. He went all in, and it worked.

I find if I go really conservative, I get beat down by someone who builds an extreme list. When I go extreme, that's when I win, but I don't like that! Spam is so unpredictable, you either hammer the enemy flat, or you leave yourself completely open to their attack. The margin isn't won by maneuver and tactics on the table. It's boring.

You could argue that this IS a dice game, determined largely by luck. Sure, I completely agree. I'd just like to see players gaining or losing the advantage ON THE TABLE, and not so much before the game even starts.

I think until a meta-rule is established, I'm going to be fighting a lot of wildly unbalanced lists, so I might as well join the club - but this could get boring really fast.

-Obvious

It is certainly possible to play and win with take all comer's lists. I think the biggest problem that most people have is that you have to take ALL comers, not just common units. Proper TAC lists can be more difficult to build than you might think.

Secondly, in the case of the example above, you didn't bring a TAC list. You brought a list tailored to beat DE skimmer spam, and then used it against an army that wasn't DE skimmer spam.

Thirdly, when you're up against spam lists, you're talking about lists that multiply their strengths, but also multiply their weaknesses. Lists that are toy-heavy may not have very many scoring units, or high-mobility lists may have durability problems. Playing to the mission and halfway decent target priority skills are usually enough to unseat most wonky lists.

In any case, the best way to beat players who use strange, high-risk lists in strange ways is to play simple, solid lists in a smooth, consistent fashion.

Once you get to the point where list gimmicks aren't winning games, then people will stop using them. Or, well, at least you'll beat them.

I completely agree with Ailros. TAC lists are extremely hard to build but a properly built one will have a chance against anything. The hard part is that a TAC list really needs units that are good against more than one niche. Vendetta is an example of a unit good against any AV/MC. Manticores are used a lot in this regard too as they are great against horde and deathstars and can pull duty against parking lots(awesome) and most AV/MC. An example list would really help with this thread.

The example weapon you gave is only "good" against AV 11 and even then is somewhat mediocre cause it lacks the cool rules that might help it on its job, example pask exterminator, hydra, etc.

I find that TAC lists have the best chance of winning. I think that you occasionally get an upset during edition changes and codex changes, as people come up with new combinations and opponents find themselves facing something they've never seen before.

More so even than list composition, though, I find that experience is the number one deciding factor in 40k. The more you know about your opponent's army (what it can do, what it can't do, how it is usually played) and your own (what works, what doesn't, when taking certain risks will pay off, how to use it) the better you will do. After any game I lose, I usually like to ask my opponent what he felt I could have done to win. I've learned a lot from that. In the aftermath of the game, most opponents will willingly show you their soft, pink underbelly so that you can gut the next guy like a trout.

In any event, good luck, and I hope things work out for you!

I'm still new to the game, and this is the most surprising response - I'm very glad to hear that TAC lists are worth playing! I have a long way to go toward building one, but I'm eager to try, now that I know they can work. In my short time playing, I've been encouraged to do the opposite.

I play with about 8-12 guys at work. In our group, most people are fairly new, only a few veterans. Maybe I'm wrong, but the consensus among everyone is - tailor and spam. If you're fighting marines - all plasma. Orks - all templates. Spam X weapon and win.

I think that worked for a while, because everyone was so typical with their armies (each one playing really predictable spam), but then they started to get really weird with it, and using tactics that are never normally used with their armies, just to be unpredictable. So the same guys bring a RADICALLY different list each time they play, trying to outdo each other by forcing a play style on an army that would never normally play that way.

But now I get it. If I've done my job, and created a list for all comers, these odd-ball lists should deflate, if I make the right moves. Luck could screw me, but in general I'll have more opportunities to win.

Any tips for an IG TAC list? I think I've got a good start, I usually play

Aegis + Quadgun
CCS - Reg Standard
Platoon - 25 guard, 3 AC, 3 flamers
Platoon - 25 guard, 3 AC, 3 flamers
2 LRBT, standard
1 Manticore

then I add whatever else - Vendettas, allies, additional russ tanks, veterans etc

What do you think?

edit - added CCS to list, clarified what's in my 2 platoons

TAC lists are my benchmark for my assertions that the Necrons are a good list and the BA are a bad list. It's bloody hard to make a good BA TAC list in 6th.

It looks like you would have a lot of trouble with High AV and Low saves 2+. Two Vendettas would go a long way to help that out. Are you running the flamers with the platoon or the platoon cmd squad? If possible use a flamer in each AC squad and put 4 flamers in the PCS, give the PCS a ride to protect them and get into the battle.

I've started running the Vanquisher to deal with enemy armor at range. I'm going the full loadout with Lascannon and MM sponsons. Works great against MC's and heavy armor. Helps keep the opponent at stand-off range and let the Vendettas go to work.

Plasma guns on vet squads are nice, but you would want them to have rides as well.

 Sir Blayse wrote:
It looks like you would have a lot of trouble with High AV and Low saves 2+. Two Vendettas would go a long way to help that out. Are you running the flamers with the platoon or the platoon cmd squad? If possible use a flamer in each AC squad and put 4 flamers in the PCS, give the PCS a ride to protect them and get into the battle.

I've started running the Vanquisher to deal with enemy armor at range. I'm going the full loadout with Lascannon and MM sponsons. Works great against MC's and heavy armor. Helps keep the opponent at stand-off range and let the Vendettas go to work.

Plasma guns on vet squads are nice, but you would want them to have rides as well.

I'm running 1 flamer per squad in the platoons.

That list I provided is just a starting point - I start modifying from there, for instance, if I'm going to throw plasma on the CCS, I'd probably give them a Chimera, maybe a medic.

I guess I'm missing the point though, lol - a TAC is not tailored.

So I suppose my TAC list would go something like -

Aegis + Quadgun
CCS, Reg Standard
Platoon 2 PIS (AC/flamer each) 1 PCS (AC/flamer)
Platoon 2 PIS (AC/flamer each) 1 PCS (AC/flamer)
2 LRBT, HB
1 LR Vanquisher, LC, MM sponsons
Storm Troopers 5x, 2 Meltas
Storm Troopers 5x, 2 Plasma
Manticore

Total approximation of points cost (1500), but this is the idea. Some tailoring is smart I think. For instance, if I swap in some allies for extra CC hotness when I know that I'm going to get assaulted, or Vendettas in a really tough MC fight. But as a TAC, this is where I'm at.

Comments?

i hate that people use PCS as throwaway, suicide units. totally unfluffy... 30 points for an extra command, how is that bad?

So, use the fact that people are list tailoring to your advantage. It's a great way to acid test TAC lists if your opponents keep on coming up with tailored ways to beat them. I mean, I only really got good with my foot guard because people would keep two army lists in their bag - their list, and their list in case they played against me.

It's an opportunity to "power level", not something to be disgruntled about. When you and everyone around you gets good enough to the point where you're all bringing TAC lists and playing them well, then yeah, you start getting into the world of luck, but from the sounds of it, it seems like you and your buddies still have the bulk of 40k's steep learning curve ahead of you.

As for your list in general, your infantry (excepting the stormtroopers), have crappy killing power. Actually, that's a problem with your list in general. The only thing I really like is the vanquisher and the melta stormies. Everything else could be up-powered, and the list itself could be consolidated down onto fewer types of units.

I think another question to ask is what your baseline tactic is...are you going mech, gunline, or some combination (or something less common)? Do you see yourself camping and then moving late game, charging full speed from turn one, or somewhere in between?
Personally, I believe there are 2 basic qualities to a TAC list: 1) it can accomplish it's mission regardless of what's fighting it and 2) it can kill any unit that it fights against. To answer #1, you have to first come up with a plan of how your army will operate. Start with a baseline "how will I take and hold objectives?", then start buffing and supporting those units. From there, you can add units that might have a more specific focus. Having a good mix of unit types (armor, infantry, etc) also helps your overall survivability because it makes your opponent bring a variety of weapons.

As far as keeping your meta from getting too extreme...mine tailors a little bit (ok, I'm playing necrons so I want some of X) but nothing ridiculous, that's just frowned upon. I'm afraid once it's become acceptable there's really nothing you can do about it, except hope that people find something else they care about more than winning every game of toy soldiers that they play. But as the others have said, a true TAC list will help you out a bit.

I've been running a mech-guard all-comers list to great success at my local FLGS. it's simple but good.

At 2000 point level, this is the last version ran.

HQ
CCS, Chimera, Astropath, Plasma-Gun x4 (195)

TROOPS
Veterans, Chimera, Plasma x4 (170)
Veterans, Chimera, Plasma x4 (170)
Veterans, Chimera, Plasma x4 (170)
Veterans, Chimera, Plasma x4 (170)
Veterans, Chimera, Plasma x4 (170)
Veterans, Chimera, Plasma x4 (170)

FAST ATTACK
Vendetta Gunship (130)
Vendetta Gunship (130)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Manticore (160)
Leman Russ Battle Tank (150)
Leman Russ Battle Tank (150)

ELITE
Guardsman Marbo (65)

All of the Chimeras have a Multi-Laser and a Heavy Flamer. The benefit of this list is that early game, no weapons below S6 can even threaten the army. You can lay into people really hard early on. Even against a drop pod Space WOlf list, they can't do much. They may drop a few units in your face and pop some transports, but then they'll get shot to sh*t. It's got a lot of heavy hitting weapons, capable of dropping tnks, MEQs, TEQs, flyers, or whatever. If I go up against an massive infantry army, I've got the templates, mas lasgun fire and a bunch of heavy flamers. I fear very few lists. Right now that list has 3 wins, 1 loss and no ties. My only loss was to Necrons. He also played a mechanized wall army, but his gauss weapons just outshot my tanks. I should have stayed further away from him and I would have won that game too, I believe.

Erik the Red wrote:

At 2000 point level, this is the last version ran.

HQ
CCS, Chimera, Astropath, Plasma-Gun x4 (195)

TROOPS
Veterans, Chimera, Plasma x4 (170)
Veterans, Chimera, Plasma x4 (170)
Veterans, Chimera, Plasma x4 (170)
Veterans, Chimera, Plasma x4 (170)
Veterans, Chimera, Plasma x4 (170)
Veterans, Chimera, Plasma x4 (170)

FAST ATTACK
Vendetta Gunship (130)
Vendetta Gunship (130)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Manticore (160)
Leman Russ Battle Tank (150)
Leman Russ Battle Tank (150)

ELITE
Guardsman Marbo (65)

Yeah, this looks solid as a rock. I've seen this list before, it looks like the 'Guard list to beat.

Can I swap your mech vets with infantry platoons? I have 100+ guardsmen models, and only 3 chimeras. I could buy more chimeras, but only if a boot horde is not an option.

I've had great success spreading my squads out all over the table and whittling down enemy infantry. Even volleys of lasgun fire have taken chunks out of assault units who get too close.

 Ailaros wrote:

As for your list in general, your infantry (excepting the stormtroopers), have crappy killing power. Actually, that's a problem with your list in general. The only thing I really like is the vanquisher and the melta stormies. Everything else could be up-powered, and the list itself could be consolidated down onto fewer types of units.

I'm not sure how to boost their killing power, I think I'm missing something. I try to spam autocannons, because I consider them the most useful in a range of situations. Same with the LRBTs - they're flexible, great marine killers, great horde killers, excellent for shooting out enemies hiding under roofs (the Eradicator is even better for this). AV14, really nice. The Manticore is great, but I would swap it for a Colossus in some games (vs gunline tau).

My question is, how do I boost my infantry's killing potential? More veterans? More special weapon squads (i do love a demo charge for assault armies)? More HWS? I could throw in an LC squad maybe. Eviscerator Priests? I'm at a lose, because I can't think of anything really lethal to go in my infantry platoons.

LRBTs and autocannons are worst in class weapons. True versatility is being able to handle a variety of targets WELL, not just cheaply.

If all you want are a couple of S7 shots, then take a plasma gun, as they're a fair bit better against vehicles with Ap2, and are a lot better against everything else, thanks to Ap2. Upgrade the autocannon to a lascannon and you're talking about putting 2 or 3 serious shots down that can hurt anything, instead of a couple of shots that largely dither, and then hoping your opponent charges your dude with a flamer.

Upgrade your infantry's guns and upgrade your tanks to ANYTHING but naked LRBTs, and you'll see a big jump in the killing power your list puts out.

How do you feel about allies. I have not seen foot hordes work except in 3 ways; Death Korps of Krieg(Forgeworld), Vendetta spam(at least 3), or (the big one) Space Wolves or Dark Angel allies.

The foot horde should have mostly lascannon/plasma load out with perhaps some autocannons if you like them(otherwise just leave them home).

The allies come in handy here with a librarian as you can improve leadership and give prescience on the squad for reroll to hit. Then add 2 drop pod squads to take distant objectives(foot guard have bad mobility see Ailros' 6ed reports).

Add manticores and vendettas to taste. The manticores are you horde/troop killers. The vendettas give you AV/MC killing and when you stuff your PCS with 4xflamers in it your have true mobility and some anti horde. Just drop into hover turn 4 and let the squad out next to an objective turn 5; 4xflamers is usually enough to shift most things off an objective.

DKoK is probably the greatest foot guard list ever made but is forgeworld so lets not talk about it cause that will derail the thread. Look them up and if you like them start a new thread where you will get a 5 page debate on legality of FW.

I think Ailros is right in that when you build a TAC list the most common mistake is taking weapons that are "okay" against everything. This is a big mistake, you should take weapons that are good or great against certain targets and bring enough of each that they cover each others weaknesses. So instead of 4 mediocre weapons you should have 2 good anti horde and 2 good AV/MC killers preferably in different squads.

 Ailaros wrote:
LRBTs and autocannons are worst in class weapons. True versatility is being able to handle a variety of targets WELL, not just cheaply.

If all you want are a couple of S7 shots, then take a plasma gun, as they're a fair bit better against vehicles with Ap2, and are a lot better against everything else, thanks to Ap2. Upgrade the autocannon to a lascannon and you're talking about putting 2 or 3 serious shots down that can hurt anything, instead of a couple of shots that largely dither, and then hoping your opponent charges your dude with a flamer.

Upgrade your infantry's guns and upgrade your tanks to ANYTHING but naked LRBTs, and you'll see a big jump in the killing power your list puts out.

I agree with this. For a TAC list, lots of Lascannons are good. You get enough shots to deal with infantry and they are good enough shots to threaten just about anything. Autocannons just aren't as good anymore.

Also, naked LRBT's are just horrid. I've been liking Vanquishers and Punishers a lot recently, but that depends on what your infantry settle on (AT or Infantry duty). LRBT's are hardly horde killers, and sure they kill Marines but that's about it. If your meta shows a lot of Marines and very little cover, they can work. But that's not the case a lot of times.

For infantry, lascannons and plasma guns are always gold. Vendetta's are also good for more lascannon shots, or a drop ship like unit for Meltavets if you need that. I suggest tooling your Infantry for AT duty, and making your tanks Punishers or other forms (NOT naked LRBT's) to take care of large amounts of foot.

I don't understand the hate for standard LRBTs. STR 8 Large blast Ordnance 72" range AV 14 front, AV 13 side for about the same price as a Predator. Don't bother with sponsons and you've got a pretty big threat on the table, squadron them up and you've just made a parking lot that isn't going to be dislodged by the other guys 1-2 AT units. Yea, its not pinholed into one role, but it fills several rolls rather well.

Maybe Ailaros means that the LRBT is bad compared to the other variants that are made for one purpose and one purpose only. But then again you take certain combos of things in the IG codex (looking at you Pask) and a tank that would fill 1 roll can now fill 2 or 3 very well. (I'd really like someone to give me a reaon why they're bad)

Maybe it's just me and the psychological impact of seeing 5+ of them on a table at 1500 points gets to me. And again, everyone's meta, table, terrain, armies they play against is different, so maybe be more specific in the ensuing examples.

They are just underwhelming. They are not a threat like some of these are. If you see a pask vanquisher and you are running tanks are you scared and how much of your fire power are you gonna put towards it? Will the lrbt ever see that level of fear? No cause it just cannot be really devastating.

They are okay if run en mass as a hard point but they are never your real threat. That will always be something else.

Wingeds wrote:Maybe Ailaros means that the LRBT is bad compared to the other variants that are made for one purpose and one purpose only.

Yes, that, but also that LRBTs are just plain old bad. Nearly anything you can do with a LRBT you can do better or equal with an exterminator. And the exterminator gets to properly use sponsons, which are the way to go with russes nowadays.

And I'm not the biggest fan of autocannons, so when I say that an LRBT is worse than an autocannon tank, that means that they're pretty much at the bottom of the barrel.

I'm not factoring in sponsons, which drasticaly changes and complicates the scenario. I'll probably agree with you that once you add on a LC sponson or whatever tickles your pickle it's a beast to be reckoned with. But it can't touch AV 14 with the main gun. STR 8 Ordnance has a decent chance of glancing AV 14 and performs well against AV 13 as well. (I can't figure out the math for Ordnance and then dividing the results between pens and glances, my math skills are limited to engineering and not statistics lol. I would post the math if I thought it was remotely correct). You also cut your range by 2 feet.

The 35-50 points you'd spend on sponsons could be spent on more bodies or accumulated into another whole tank.

Firstly, the exterminator is equal to the battlecannon against AV13. Secondly, the battlecannon is terrible against AV14. Assuming two in three shots manage to wing it with the large blast template, you're looking at a glancing hit once in every FIVE times you fire the gun. That's wretched.

And spending 15 points for a lascannon that comes on an AV14 chassis is criminally cheap. You have to pay more to put them in HWSs which have nowhere near the same durability. Likewise, sponsons are basically the only place you can take multimeltas, and they cost only 30 frigging points, and on that chassis.

And now that the russes are heavy, they can move 6" and fire them all at full BS in conjunction with their turret weapon.

... unless it's an LRBT...

 CaptObvious wrote:

I find if I go really conservative, I get beat down by someone who builds an extreme list. When I go extreme, that's when I win, but I don't like that! Spam is so unpredictable, you either hammer the enemy flat, or you leave yourself completely open to their attack. The margin isn't won by maneuver and tactics on the table. It's boring.

I'm a long time proponent of balanced list building and a big part of that (I believe) is a focus on troops.
Often the spam lists will rely on a minimal amount of scoring bodies to hide and claim a few objectives while their super death machines march/drive/fly/gallop/slither etc forward to kill you and everyone you love.

By having a significant amount of troops, you are better able to weather their killing power and still claim objectives. Some armies have an easier or harder time investing heavily in their troops but it sounds like you play Guard and I would rank them fairly high as far as having access to effective troop choices.

Another thing to consider is that having a balanced or TAC list doesn't mean that you must be equally good at handling every scenario. Each army has strengths and weaknesses and a well built TAC list will include as many of your strengths as is reasonable while mitigating any glaring weaknesses. For some armies, it might just not be cost effective to invest points in a particular aspect. Take flyers for example, Discounting allies, we see that some armies have an easier time handling flyers than others. If you have an army that doesn't lend itself to killing flyers (lack of long range high volume medium/high S weaponry for example) you can decide to acknowledge you won't ever have a strength fighting flyers and instead find ways to mitigate your weakness such as reserve manipulation, or closing quickly with the enemy so their flyers have less optimal targets before flying off the board.

I think the best thing the LRBT has going for it is the range, and the AP3. However, I'm coming around to your way of thinking - it's not a superstar. I certainly don't think it sucks, I've leveled squads of marines with it. They should have been in cover, cocky buggers.

After hearing your opinion, I think I want to go with an Eradicator/LRBT combo, and I could probably field an additional Executioner or Vanquisher. I like these 4 tanks. The LRBT simply cannot be kited by Railguns, Lances, Longfangs, or Lascannons - it can hit back. When enemy squads camp objectives under a roof, the LRBT can sit safely on the horizon and snipe them. I know you guys are hating on this tank, but who wants to be hit with a S8 AP3 blast at any range? No other Russ tanks can shoot armored infantry from across the table. But I hear what you're saying - it's missing all the direct fire that other tanks have, so when it misses, it tends to miss completely. That sucks. I still like scoring a direct hit on some marines after wrecking their transport.

I'm really liking the Eradicator as a counter part to the LRBT, because it can dislodge units in cover. The aegis is useless against it. So now the marines are taking cover from the LRBT, and anyone without power armor is screwed. Clumped up tight in cover is not where you want to be when a large blast ignores ALL your saves - you'd be better off spreading out in the open, or getting out of sight.

My Executioner has executed plenty of terminators, I'd certainly take this tank in any fight vs marines. The Vanquisher is odd, but once it's dressed up with MM sponsons, LC and Pask - I feel a little better about having it on the table.

I'm not a fan of the Demolisher because of it's short range. I used to like running the Exterminator with 3 HB and a pintle mounted Stubber, but the marines I play with laugh at it. All non-marines just camp in cover and wait for it to die. There are too many effective counters to the Exterminator. Another IG player in the group has run the Punisher over and over, and it hasn't done anything for him yet. Having no AP at all makes it pretty lame, in my opinion.