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 Frazzled wrote:
Don't you have the burden to prove such an offensive statement?

Offensive statement? That's really amazing. I've already directed you to Sugrue's book. I don't know if you'll read it, since you couldn't give two feths about this issue and since you think acknowledging the real -- and obvious -- racism in this country is "offensive."

 R3con wrote:
I've seen lots of arguments against the EM but not one plan for how to fix the budget problems or the population loss, or the fact that city unions have a choke hold on the city

I just posted an alternative to suspending democracy and appointing a dictator. Detroit and the three counties should be governed as a regional economic unit. The counties should indeed have more say in what happens in the city. Yes, I know that black elected officials in the city will have a problem with that. That is exactly why they should also have more of a say of what happens in the counties. It can't be unilateral. Appointing a dictator is a unilateral solution: the state gets to override the elected government of the city and the city has no say in the city much less at any wider level.

 Easy E wrote:
Instead, they will double down and say that the emergency manager didn't have ENOUGH power.

Reading between the lines, this is probably the plan as it stands. The law as written would allow the city to dismiss the dictator after 18 months. Is the governor hoping in good faith that the city's elected officials will vote to keep themselves out of the offices their constituents elected them to for a longer period of time? Which, if any, of Detroit's problems can actually be addressed meaningfully in 18 months? What we'll have is 18 months of animosity and distrust further radicalizing the city's politics and driving down effectiveness to all-time lows. This in turn will provide further grist for the Republican propaganda mill when generating support for the appointment of the next dictator.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
You post offensive statements all the time and never prove them!

Your post is racist you racey racerton!


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 Manchu wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Don't you have the burden to prove such an offensive statement?

Offensive statement? That's really amazing. I've already directed you to Sugrue's book. I don't know if you'll read it, since you couldn't give two feths about this issue and since you think acknowledging the real -- and obvious -- racism in this country is "offensive."

Dude we're on a website about toy soldiers. I'm not going to read about about supposed racism as the cause for Detroit's downfall because you can't be arsed to support your position. Why should I? It only benefits me with new plants in Tennessee and San Antonio for the companies that beat Government Motors to Death. Once again, Tennessee superior Michigan inferior. But don't feel bad. At least you're not New Mexico or West Texas.

Besides a corvette can anyone even think of a Government Motors car? What do they even make at this point?

 Frazzled wrote:
you can't be arsed to support your position

You can't be arsed to read the thread. Or the news ...

Besides a corvette can anyone even think of a Government Motors car?

GM was the top selling make globally in 2011 and the second in 2012. Frazzled, you're tired, bitter, and clearly overwhelmed by the complexities of modern life. Also, I'd think living in TX you'd at least have heard of a Silverado.

 Manchu wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
you can't be arsed to support your position

You can't be arsed to read the thread. Or the news ...
I read plenty of news. But like our Brit comrade, it doesn't affect me, so I don't care beyond the headline level. However, you're calling your opponents racist. Thats clearly
1. Stupid
2. a violation of Dakka Rule #1
3. Designed to stifle a real debate on the issue.
Why on earth would I want to discuss it with you when you're impugning its racist?

Besides a corvette can anyone even think of a Government Motors car?

GM was the top selling make globally in 2011 and the second in 2012. Frazzled, you're tired, bitter, and clearly overwhelmed by the complexities of modern life. Also, I'd think living in TX you'd at least have heard of a Silverado.

I said car. Some we're throwing elbows, I'll note God doesn't seem to have graced you with reading comprehension this morning. Trucks aren't cars Yankee.

 Frazzled wrote:
Trucks aren't cars Yankee.

If asinine is the only way you know, fine -- the Kruze was one of the top selling cars in 2011.

 Manchu wrote:
I just posted an alternative to suspending democracy and appointing a dictator. Detroit and the three counties should be governed as a regional economic unit. The counties should indeed have more say in what happens in the city. Yes, I know that black elected officials in the city will have a problem with that. That is exactly why they should also have more of a say of what happens in the counties. It can't be unilateral. Appointing a dictator is a unilateral solution: the state gets to override the elected government of the city and the city has no say

But even that plan will need a EM of some sort to jam through, I can hear the screams of "they stealing our jewels" from my office right now. Hell they wont even let the counties have a vote on the water system they all use.

And Oalkand is almost as jacked up as Detroit, and probably just as corrupt.

 R3con wrote:
But even that plan will need a EM of some sort to jam through

Not necessarily. Republicans have spent millions of dollars to successfully propagandize anti-labor and anti-democracy politics in MI. Things that were formerly unthinkable in that state are now happening. Why not spend some of those millions on lobbying the counties and city to engage in meaningful and democratic coordination? Snyder keeps talking about partnership but what kind of partnership does a dictator have with the people?

 Manchu wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Trucks aren't cars Yankee.

If asinine is the only way you know, fine -- the Kruze was one of the top selling cars in 2011.

And thats what I was asking for.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/04/mitt-romney-detroit-emergency-manager_n_2806302.html

This should make some people just about blow their lids LMAO.

 Manchu wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I find it interesting that Manchu's argument boils down to "Racists"

Are you looking at Detroit and not seeing a race issue? That would be very interesting, too ...

I basically see all major cities as urban hell holes where no sane human being regardless of race in their right mind would want to live. I don't have a dog in this particular fight, and it's just confirming my bias that again, any major urban population center is essentially a post apocalyptic hell hole.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I find it interesting that Manchu's argument boils down to "Racists"

Are you looking at Detroit and not seeing a race issue? That would be very interesting, too ...

I basically see all major cities as urban hell holes where no sane human being regardless of race in their right mind would want to live. I don't have a dog in this particular fight, and it's just confirming my bias that again, any major urban population center is essentially a post apocalyptic hell hole.

Well, at least you are open minded about the issue....

In all reality, I would be open to hearing what a city, any city; would need to do to recover from tough times. Can anyone point me to some case studies?

 Manchu wrote:
Not necessarily. Republicans have spent millions of dollars to successfully propagandize anti-labor and anti-democracy politics in MI. Things that were formerly unthinkable in that state are now happening. Why not spend some of those millions on lobbying the counties and city to engage in meaningful and democratic coordination? Snyder keeps talking about partnership but what kind of partnership does a dictator have with the people?

Those dastardly Republicans, pointing out it was, you know, Big Labor and the culture of unsustainable handouts fostered by politicians giving their constituency more than they can afford in order to win elections that led to the city being unable to cope with its new reality.

 R3con wrote:


Stop saying "Detroit is an important part of the MI economy" Until you give us a source for this factoid? Because I call BS, GM is a significant part of the economy, which Detroit had to BEG and PAY to stay in the city when it had plans to move to the tech-center outside of town.

Detroit produces nothing of note, and other than dan gilbert moving his company downtown (because he owns half of downtown) has no real industry or business. The suburbs are where the plants are now, the suburbs contain the majority of the office buildings.


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And this map should give you a real education on detroits issues.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/99999999/SPECIAL01/120606001

I currently live just outside the city of Detroit, and R3con is spot on in his points. Everything is done in the suburbs around the city these days like Livonia, Plymouth, etc. For all the talk of businesses moving into the city, it's still dead and will likely remain so for the foreseeable future. To be honest as long as the ineffective city council is still in charge then no one will want to go/move business to Detroit.
It's really sad, but it's the reality the city has to face.

So, let's say they appoint this Emergency Manager. Great. Then what? What will this person actual DO to help revitalize Detroit?

 Easy E wrote:
So, let's say they appoint this Emergency Manager. Great. Then what? What will this person actual DO to help revitalize Detroit?

The biggest thing he can do is break union contracts, this will be his greatest power.

And that will help reviatlize the city how?

 Easy E wrote:
And that will help reviatlize the city how?

Depends on if you buy the narrative that the unions are bleeding the city dry.

So, the idea is that by breaking Union contracts, it saves the city money. Okay, let's say that is true. Then what?

Here is the plan I have seen so far:

1. Appoint Emergency Manager
2. Break Union Contracts
3. ???
4. Profit!

So, once you break the Union contracts, then waht do you do and how does it help Detroit get back up on its feet?

 Easy E wrote:
So, the idea is that by breaking Union contracts, it saves the city money. Okay, let's say that is true. Then what?

Here is the plan I have seen so far:

1. Appoint Emergency Manager
2. Break Union Contracts
3. ???
4. Profit!

So, once you break the Union contracts, then waht do you do and how does it help Detroit get back up on its feet?

There is a subset of the MI legislature which HONESTLY BELIEVES that the unions were literally the only thing holding detroit back.

I'm sure there are people that honestly believe that.

So, what do they expect to see happen once the Union contracts are broken?

Money will just pile up in Detroit's coffers?
People will stop "celebrating" Devil's Night?
Wealthy suburbanites will flock back to the city?
Everyone will gladly pay property and sales taxes?
Debt will evaporate?

I'm honestly curious.

I think it will allow the government to re-examine current staffing numbers, even though the population has severely dwindled the city payroll has not followed (except for of course emergency services)

 R3con wrote:
I think it will allow the government to re-examine current staffing numbers, even though the population has severely dwindled the city payroll has not followed (except for of course emergency services)

Are the public unions the only problem? no, but they do provide a significant drain on the city in terms of retirement plans and simply being too large for the task at hand. Breaking the contracts would simply be a start

A start to do what?

1. Re-examine current staffing
2. Save money on retirement plans
3. ???

Okay, now we are starting to get somewhere. So, both of those options save money. Now what do we do?

What is the root of the problems in Detroit? Do these measures impact the root of the problems or do they impact the symptoms of the problems? I honestly don't know.

I do know just saving money will do nothing, unless there is a plan for what to do with the saved money.

 Easy E wrote:
A start to do what?

1. Re-examine current staffing
2. Save money on retirement plans
3. ???

Okay, now we are starting to get somewhere. So, both of those options save money. Now what do we do?

What is the root of the problems in Detroit? Do these measures impact the root of the problems or do they impact the symptoms of the problems? I honestly don't know.

I do know just saving money will do nothing, unless there is a plan for what to do with the saved money.

they're running a deficit. There is no saved money until you make that deficit.

Okay, so you are only going to apply it to the deficit.

So...

1. Break union contracts
2. Re-examine staffing levels
3. Save money on retirement plans
4. Apply it to deficit

greta. That is the semblance of a plan. So, what is the goal? Just pay off the deficit?

Also, Frazz I thought St. Ronnie taught us that Deficit's don't matter?

 Easy E wrote:
Okay, so you are only going to apply it to the deficit.

So...

1. Break union contracts
2. Re-examine staffing levels
3. Save money on retirement plans
4. Apply it to deficit

greta. That is the semblance of a plan. So, what is the goal? Just pay off the deficit?

Also, Frazz I thought St. Ronnie taught us that Deficit's don't matter?

They matter when no one funds your deficit, which appears to be the case here.

To your question - yes I think thats the idea. Get Detroit on a going concern basis again. Else you won't have money to pay the cops, fire, medical, and keep the lights on.

But hey its Detroit.

This sums up my view pretty well

http://cmsimg.freep.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?NewTbl=1&Site=C4&Date=20130305&Category=FEATURES&ArtNo=303050804&Ref=PH&Item=6&Maxw=640&Maxh=410&q=60

I haven't seen a convincing argument -- or to be honest, even a serious argument -- that union busting will save or even meaningfully help the situation. The issue is, you've got a city with a huge population. That population requires infrastructure for which current government revenue cannot account. The Republican narrative goes, the present infrastructure ranges from disastrously inefficient to basically criminal. Their argument is that unions are the mechanism by which this inefficiency and criminality arose and became entrenched. I say this isn't serious because it's an argument for causality that assumes causality. Put a little differently, it goes:

- There are strong unions in Detroit.
- There are major deficits in Detroit.
- Therefore, strong unions create major deficits and decreasing deficits requires weakening unions.

So you can see there's a confusion, or at least a lack of evidence, regarding elements that are merely contemporary being correlative much less causal here. The truth is, there are places in the US with strong unions and manageable budgets. It seems to me, what such places lack that Detroit has is wholesale regional abandonment along the racial demographics.

As far as I can tell, what Snyder wants to do in Detroit is not really about Detroit so much as a larger pattern of policies, like the sarcastically named "right to work" issue, opposition to government involvement in healthcare insurance, and voter ID laws, that aim at marginalizing what Mitt Romney very candidly estimated to be the 47%. But is anyone really surprised that Republicans prefer oligarchy to democracy?

A much, much better solution than appointing a dictator (who would ever have thought it would need to be pointed out as regarding the US?) is regional integration. I know there are issues with that: unless real efforts are actually made to deal with racism then nothing's to prevent another, possibly more disastrous white flight. You could still tackle the corrupt and inefficient infrastructure -- arguably, the perspective offered by integration would make that task more comprehensive.

Excellent summary Manchu. Destroit should just keep doing what its doing. I'm sure there will be no problems with that.

However, forcing other's to share in Detroit's mistakes, I doubt they will accept that. Its Detroit's problem, not their's.

If it's just Detroit's problem then the governor cannot justify appointing a dictator. Clearly it is a larger problem. Specifically, it is a problem that encompasses the city's suburbs.