Gov. Snyder likely to appoint Emergency Manager to Detroit

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**whembly**

Question here... when it's said "unions"... are we talking about the Automotive Unions? or the Government Unions (SIEU)?

These sorts of reckoning is already happening... see what's happening in San Diego's public pension wars...

**Manchu**

We're talking both but government unions foremost, as far as the first 18 months of dictatorship is concerned.

**whembly**

Manchu wrote:
We're talking both but government unions foremost, as far as the first 18 months of dictatorship is concerned.

Ah... okay.

If this "dictator" does renegotiates these Union contracts... then what? That can't be it... there's all sorts of issues that need to be addressed.

**Manchu**

Yep, that's kind of what Easy E has been asking.

**Easy E**

And no one can answer, because it is an ideology and not a plan.

If you pay down the deficit, will that bring taxpayers back to the city? No.

Deficits are a symptom of the problem. The problem is that no one wants to live in Detroit. Therefore, there is no tax revenue to pay for anything, hence a deficit is created. Therefore, if you want ot solve the problem you have to get taxpayers into Detroit.

Manchu is actually saying, expand Detroit to include more taxpayers. The right is saying, let's bust unions and reduce pensions. If it gets worse for Government and Union workers, do you think they will stay as taxpayers in Detroit? If they leave does that help Detroit get better?

**whembly**

Are there any plans for major redevelopment projects? Spearheaded by Illitch or Kronke?

**Frazzled**

Are the neghboring regions already incorporated? If so kiss the expansion idea goodbye.

**whembly**

Frazzled wrote:
Are the neghboring regions already incorporated? If so kiss the expansion idea goodbye.

Even then, wouldn't this "dictator" have Eminent Domain powah?

**Frazzled**

whembly wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Are the neghboring regions already incorporated? If so kiss the expansion idea goodbye.

Even then, wouldn't this "dictator" have Eminent Domain powah?

Generally, you can't "eminent domain" one municipalities' jurisdiction into another. Its a big reason places incorporate. But there's a lot of state law there so MI may be different.
Politically, the outlying regions probably have more pull now than Detroit does too.

**KingCracker**

Manchu wrote:
KingCracker wrote:
Id like to just level the damn place and say good luck to its inhabitants
Sort of like, if your car gets a flat tire you wish you could just tow it to the dump? Detroit is an important part of the MI economy. I think the issue is that white people don't want to live there and haven't wanted to live there for years. But they still want to control the resources, like the Cobo Center, like utilities, like Downtown, like the bridge. The trouble is, in a democracy, you don't usually get to control the government of a place where you don't live.

I dont see how you can compare the two. If my tire goes flat, the rest of the car is fine, a little bit of money and work and the tire is fixed. Detroit is a rotting cesspool that is dragging the rest of the state down because of it. To compare an automobile in such a way, would be more like dumping mud in the gas tank and start driving it. It gets worse and worse as you go along, until you hit the point that the car stops working. In THAT case, yes, junk yard is a valid argument to have at that point

**Hoitash**

Frazzled wrote:
Are the neghboring regions already incorporated? If so kiss the expansion idea goodbye.

If anything, Detroit needs to shrink and consolidate. That would allow the services that still function a better ability to serve the area, since they will actually be where the people are. As it is, their stretched too thin, because the people are too spread out.

That might help solve the overall problem of Detroit being a post apocalyptic wasteland.

**Manchu**

Keep in mind, I'm talking about about institutionalizing a relationship that already exists in fact: having a city-and-three-county council made up of representatives from the existing governments of those jurisdictions. I'm not talking about shutting down existing governments. Detroit, Macomb, Oakland, and Wayne should be considered a kind of special economic zone and governed at that level as well as at lower levels.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be honest, we should just go with the whole Metro Area being governed as a SEZ. If you look at it that way, i.e., in a historical way, you'll find that Detroit hasn't fallen apart -- it's just expanded outwards into the counties via its suburbs. The same city planning and tax jurisdiction schemas that made this white flight possible in the first place also meant that this larger version of Detroit would not be paying Detroit taxes to support Detroit infrastructure. If we consider Detroit's situation in specific terms of inner city blight, the issue becomes much clearer.

In terms of imagination, one of the problems here is people think a city is something very discrete, very separate from its suburbs. In an administrative sense, you can make that kind of precise division. But you can't do that in market terms. What happens when all Detroit's white citizens move within an hour of where they used to live? Some people read this as Detroit's population declining. But you could also say that Detorit's area just increased drastically. Considering the historical development of the city -- just look at the skyline, it's not jumbled up at all, but goes off in every direction -- this explanation makes more sense.

**Frazzled**

Whats a SEZ Manchustein?

**Manchu**

Typically, it's an area exempt from otherwise national laws because of some particular economic goal. Shenzhen, in the PRC, is a good example -- free trade was allowed there much earlier than in other parts of China. I'm kind of using the term the other way around to indicate integration rather than exemption. The term that is usually employed here is "Metropolitan Area" but I want to suggest something more than geographical, something more administratively formal because it is so unique.

**Frazzled**

Manchu wrote:
Typically, it's an area exempt from otherwise national laws because of some particular economic goal. Shenzhen, in the PRC, is a good example -- free trade was allowed there much earlier than in other parts of China. I'm kind of using the term the other way around to indicate integration rather than exemption. The term that is usually employed here is "Metropolitan Area" but I want to suggest something more than geographical, something more administratively formal because it is so unique.

how do you integrate the surrounding towns? I'm pretty sure they'd fight that intensely on a legal and political basis. The other counties and towns in MI might as well, to avoid the precedent it sets.

**R3con**

Manchu wrote:
I haven't seen a convincing argument -- or to be honest, even a serious argument -- that union busting will save or even meaningfully help the situation. The issue is, you've got a city with a huge population. That population requires infrastructure for which current government revenue cannot account. The Republican narrative goes, the present infrastructure ranges from disastrously inefficient to basically criminal. Their argument is that unions are the mechanism by which this inefficiency and criminality arose and became entrenched. I say this isn't serious because it's an argument for causality that assumes causality. Put a little differently, it goes:

- There are strong unions in Detroit.
- There are major deficits in Detroit.
- Therefore, strong unions create major deficits and decreasing deficits requires weakening unions.

So you can see there's a confusion, or at least a lack of evidence, regarding elements that are merely contemporary being correlative much less causal here. The truth is, there are places in the US with strong unions and manageable budgets. It seems to me, what such places lack that Detroit has is wholesale regional abandonment along the racial demographics.

As far as I can tell, what Snyder wants to do in Detroit is not really about Detroit so much as a larger pattern of policies, like the sarcastically named "right to work" issue, opposition to government involvement in healthcare insurance, and voter ID laws, that aim at marginalizing what Mitt Romney very candidly estimated to be the 47%. But is anyone really surprised that Republicans prefer oligarchy to democracy?

A much, much better solution than appointing a dictator (who would ever have thought it would need to be pointed out as regarding the US?) is regional integration. I know there are issues with that: unless real efforts are actually made to deal with racism then nothing's to prevent another, possibly more disastrous white flight. You could still tackle the corrupt and inefficient infrastructure -- arguably, the perspective offered by integration would make that task more comprehensive.

My only issue with the unions is that the contracts were signed when the D had a totally different population number and makeup. Yet the unions refuse to allow layoffs, they have taken pay cuts but we all know that pay is the least expensive part of a union employee, benefits and legacy costs being the most expensive parts.

The second thing a EM can do that the council or mayor will not do because its political suicide is strictly enforce back tax payments and foreclosures. A report just came out saying that 50% of homeowners are delinquent with property taxes.

Manchu I agree a regional athority would be best, but Detroit has burned WAY to many bridges to have any of the neighboring governmental entities even entertain such a thought. And while it may be childish I can hear people right now crying "they are your 'jewels' you deal with it" (you may have to be more local to get this point)

The city council has said it does not want people who "look like me" working on downtown projects (i can find youtube video if requested later) the amount of Racism that is prevalent in Detroit against whites is unbelievable, and it exists at all levels of City Government.

**Huffy**

Regardless of an EM or not, the unions will end up getting cut back and having their contracts made null when the city declares Bankruptcy in the very near future.

**Manchu**

Frazzled wrote:
how do you integrate the surrounding towns?

Again, integration in this sense would be a higher-level mutual recognition not the merging of existing lower government. These places are already economically linked in a very intimate way. The problems they face, historically speaking, originate in their mutual inability to recognize and tend to that factual relationship. The solution therefore is to open up channels of discussion, planning, coordination, and action where these people are acting as a the community of neighbors they actually are rather than the crowd of strangers that they might prefer to be and have tried to be for too long.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

R3con wrote:
the amount of Racism that is prevalent in Detroit against whites is unbelievable, and it exists at all levels of City Government

I know that. I acknowledge that as totally factual. But consider where that racism comes from -- look at the real history of this place and you'll see a lot of very good reasons why the urban blacks are suspicious of the suburban whites. It's like, you can easily understand why the suburban whites are suspicious of the urban blacks -- you see the crime, you see the poverty. I'm saying, put yourself in the other place for a minute and ask, what must it feel like to live inside of that because of systematic racism? If you open up your mind to the real history here, you'll understand there is no end to distrust and outright prejudice on both sides. And that's why this mess exists in the first place.

So if hate and marginalization are the problems, you gotta ask yourself -- how is taking away democracy and appointing a dictator going to help anything?

**Frazzled**

Manchu wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
how do you integrate the surrounding towns?
Again, integration in this sense would be a higher-level mutual recognition not the merging of existing lower government. These places are already economically linked in a very intimate way. The problems they face, historically speaking, originate in their mutual inability to recognize and tend to that factual relationship. The solution therefore is to open up channels of discussion, planning, coordination, and action where these people are acting as a the community of neighbors they actually are rather than the crowd of strangers that they might prefer to be and have tried to be for too long.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

R3con wrote:
the amount of Racism that is prevalent in Detroit against whites is unbelievable, and it exists at all levels of City Government
I know that. I acknowledge that as totally factual. But consider where that racism comes from -- look at the real history of this place and you'll see a lot of very good reasons why the urban blacks are suspicious of the suburban whites. It's like, you can easily understand why the suburban whites are suspicious of the urban blacks -- you see the crime, you see the poverty. I'm saying, put yourself in the other place for a minute and ask, what must it feel like to live inside of that because of systematic racism? If you open up your mind to the real history here, you'll understand there is no end to distrust and outright prejudice on both sides. And that's why this mess exists in the first place.

So if hate and marginalization are the problems, you gotta ask yourself -- how is taking away democracy and appointing a dictator going to help anything?

Let me rephrase. How do you get buy in from them, as its not in their economic interest? This is not a criticism as its a valid strategy. But how are you going to get buyin?

**Manchu**

You have to spend money on educating the public. You need to invest in a rhetoric that explains how the Metro area is actually a single unit. We've seen millions and millions of dollars spent, both on the part of suburban Republicans and urban Democrats, to publish the opposite narrative. But it has never been true. Unfortunately, these days you have a lot o Michiganders who believe this obvious lie that Detroit is this discrete little place that affects nothing around it -- even at the same time that they complain and complain that it's such a drag on the state economy. Money makes a difference: it's how you convince people that at-will-employment is actually the "right to work" instead of the right to fire any time for any reason. So much money has been spent twisting the truth into hatred and suspicion; how about some money spent for the sake of solidarity and cooperation?

The buy in will be obvious to anyone who can overcome their prejudices and the faulty narrative that has been paid for since the 90s. The buy in is obviously obvious: wouldn't you much rather live next to an economically vibrant city than a blighted ruin? The question is, who has the good will AND the dollars to actually engage the public about the truth of the city and the surrounding areas.

**R3con**

Manchu wrote:
You have to spend money on educating the public. You need to invest in a rhetoric that explains how the Metro area is actually a single unit. We've seen millions and millions of dollars spent, both on the part of suburban Republicans and urban Democrats, to publish the opposite narrative. But it has never been true. Unfortunately, these days you have a lot o Michiganders who believe this obvious lie that Detroit is this discrete little place that affects nothing around it -- even at the same time that they complain and complain that it's such a drag on the state economy. Money makes a difference: it's how you convince people that at-will-employment is actually the "right to work" instead of the right to fire any time for any reason. So much money has been spent twisting the truth into hatred and suspicion; how about some money spent for the sake of solidarity and cooperation?

The buy in will be obvious to anyone who can overcome their prejudices and the faulty narrative that has been paid for since the 90s. The buy in is obviously obvious: wouldn't you much rather live next to an economically vibrant city than a blighted ruin? The question is, who has the good will AND the dollars to actually engage the public about the truth of the city and the surrounding areas.

The surrounding areas have time and time again come to Detroit with solutions, only to be told that we are somehow invaiding/taking/stealing are the white devil. Every single time in the last decade. Detroit wants money but no over site on how the money is spent. Detroit wants the suburbs to pay for Cobo Hall, Water Sytem, Bell Isle, Rail Travel, but does not want to give us a voice or vote.

I'm still flabbergasted that I am taxed without representation.

You want my real solution? Let everyone who pays Detroit City Income Taxes have a vote in Detroit, the city will turn around in a decade.

**Manchu**

Income tax is tied to where income is earned. The franchise is tied to domicile. It's really not that shocking.

**Easy E**

The mor eI listen to the discussion, the more I think a dictator should be appointed, but not just Detroit, but all of its subrbs too. It is pretty clear that these local govenrments/populations do NOT want to work together. Then force them all to take the same medicine and work together.

I bet the EM wouldn't be so popular then though.

**R3con**

Easy E wrote:
The mor eI listen to the discussion, the more I think a dictator should be appointed, but not just Detroit, but all of its subrbs too. It is pretty clear that these local govenrments/populations do NOT want to work together. Then force them all to take the same medicine and work together.

I bet the EM wouldn't be so popular then though.

An EM has been appointed to several city's outside of detroit already.

**Easy E**

Yes, but I bet if the EM appointed to Detroit also had control of its suburbs; the idea of having a Detroit EM would be less popular in the Detroit area.

So, what kind of results have these EM's had othe rplaces?

**Huffy**

http://www.governing.com/topics/mgmt/gov-emergency-financial-managers-michigan-municipalities-unwelcome-savior.html

Here's an article on the EM in Pontiac, does a decent job of describing pluses and minuses of an EM(some may consider it biased)

It also has a cool map showing areas that are currently under an EM in MI

**R3con**

Love it

He ripped out the city’s parking meters when he realized it cost more money to collect parking fees than the city was taking in

**Rented Tritium**

R3con wrote:
Love it

He ripped out the city’s parking meters when he realized it cost more money to collect parking fees than the city was taking in

Seems to me that's nothing that can't be accomplished by an auditor. Why did they need to have a dictator for this?

**Frazzled**

Auditor, dictator, there's a difference?

**Rented Tritium**

Frazzled wrote:
Auditor, dictator, there's a difference?

You are joking, but because people might not know, an auditor doesn't have power. They just present findings.

An auditor could find things like this and present them to the city commission. If they're not completely stupid, they should get rid of the meters once the auditors suggest it. If they don't, the press should jump all over it and they get voted out.

That's how democracy works.