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This melee weapon has the rule Warp Mutation. It specifically states "If the bearer slays an enemy Ch or MC".
There is no qualifier for in assault, challenge, or even with that weapon.

By way of comparison, the other Tzeentch CCW a staff of change has the rule Warpdoom. And that states that "loses its last wound to a close combat attack from a staff of change".

So my question is, does a model with a mutating warpblade activate its special rule no matter how it kills an enemy (or when)?
All other daemon weapons refer to "this weapon" whereas this one does not.

If thats what it says.. Then yeah, bit of an odd one

Meaning you can take 16 of these in a tzeentch army and each time one of these 16 guys kill anything, you get a chaos spawn on a 2+.
I gotta try that out (probably be super overcosted and useless (and I'll roll kill points for mission of course)), but at least it'll be fun.

EDIT: That army would cost 2420pts.

So maybe not, lol

My gut reaction is to say you can only benefit from the special rules of a melee weapon when actively using it in close combat.

But when I look I can only find a restriction preventing you from using the special rules of multiple close combat weapons at once.

So it appears that the RAW would support any sort of "slaying" as being sufficient to trigger this rule, so long as you aren't attacking in melee with a different weapon at the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 psyklone wrote:
each time one of these 16 guys kill anything, you get a chaos spawn on a 2+.

Each time they kill a Character or Monstrous Creature, yes. A regular tactical marine or something similar isn't sufficient.

How would slaying in melee with another weapon not count as slaying?

 psyklone wrote:
How would slaying in melee with another weapon not count as slaying?

You can't mix the rules of multiple melee weapons, this is established on page 51 of the rulebook:

"If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons"

If you are benefitting from the rules of a different Melee weapon at the time the slaying occurs, you can't benefit from the rules of the Mutating Warpblade.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

 psyklone wrote:
How would slaying in melee with another weapon not count as slaying?

You can't mix the rules of multiple melee weapons, this is established on page 51 of the rulebook:

"If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different Melee weapons"

If you are benefitting from the rules of a different Melee weapon at the time the slaying occurs, you can't benefit from the rules of the Mutating Warpblade.

That's not exactly true. If an ability requires the weapon to be used, you can't benefit from the ability unless the weapon is used.
If the weapon simply grants an ability, it doesn't matter if you use it or not.

Dreadknights and their re-roll to hit with the Greatsword while hitting at STR10 due to the Doomfist are a perfect example.

rigeld2 wrote:
That's not exactly true. If an ability requires the weapon to be used, you can't benefit from the ability unless the weapon is used.
If the weapon simply grants an ability, it doesn't matter if you use it or not.

Dreadknights and their re-roll to hit with the Greatsword while hitting at STR10 due to the Doomfist are a perfect example.

Dreadknights are an exception to the norm, created through GW's FAQ.

In all other situations where there isn't a special exception, such as the Mutating Warpblade one in question, you cannot benefit from the rules of 2 weapons simultaneously.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
That's not exactly true. If an ability requires the weapon to be used, you can't benefit from the ability unless the weapon is used.
If the weapon simply grants an ability, it doesn't matter if you use it or not.

Dreadknights and their re-roll to hit with the Greatsword while hitting at STR10 due to the Doomfist are a perfect example.

Dreadknights are an exception to the norm, created through GW's FAQ.

In all other situations where there isn't a special exception, such as the Mutating Warpblade one in question, you cannot benefit from the rules of 2 weapons simultaneously.

It depends on the wording of the wargear in question. For example all Tyranid CCW say that the models close combat attacks do X. If it were possible to have on a given model 2 pairs of boneswords, a lash whip, crushing claws, rending talons and 2 pairs of scything talons...you would get the benefits of all of them.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
That's not exactly true. If an ability requires the weapon to be used, you can't benefit from the ability unless the weapon is used.
If the weapon simply grants an ability, it doesn't matter if you use it or not.

Dreadknights and their re-roll to hit with the Greatsword while hitting at STR10 due to the Doomfist are a perfect example.

Dreadknights are an exception to the norm, created through GW's FAQ.

In all other situations where there isn't a special exception, such as the Mutating Warpblade one in question, you cannot benefit from the rules of 2 weapons simultaneously.

It's not an exception. It worked that way before the FAQ because of the wording. The FAQ in this case just clarified what they meant.

Happyjew wrote:It depends on the wording of the wargear in question. For example all Tyranid CCW say that the models close combat attacks do X. If it were possible to have on a given model 2 pairs of boneswords, a lash whip, crushing claws, rending talons and 2 pairs of scything talons...you would get the benefits of all of them.

I'm under the impression they also, critically, aren't actually melee weapons, although I suppose I could be wrong, I don't know Tyranids well enough.

I'm under the impression none of them have the sort of profile necessary for a melee weapon nor do they refer to themselves as melee weapons with a set of additional rules, but instead are just wargear that grant bonuses to the models equipped with them.

rigeld2 wrote:It's not an exception. It worked that way before the FAQ because of the wording. The FAQ in this case just clarified what they meant.

It did not work that way before the FAQ, before the FAQ the core rules told us that you could not mix the rules of two different weapons, and as such, Nemesis Doomfists and Nemesis Greatswords could not mix their rules together.

The FAQ is the only thing allowing it, and if it was removed today Dreadknights would revert to being unable to mix the two.

It's also worth noting that, although they have gone absent of late, GW had previously ruled on 2 separate weapons in the Dark Eldar Codex with nearly identical wording to the Nemesis Greatswords that their bonuses could not be obtained except when actively using the weapons in combat, so the idea that the GK FAQ ruling is some infallible precedent for weapons with similar wording is already pretty far fetched.

edit: Correction, only the Animus Vitae ruling disappeared, the Djin Blade one is still there.

Q: If a model is armed with a Djin blade and another special close
combat weapon, such as an agoniser, and he chooses not to attack
with the Djin blade, does he still get the two bonus Attacks? (p56)
A: No.

Not knowing the wording of the Djinn blade, I can't say that's relevant.

Oh my bad:

"A djin blade is a power weapon. Furthermore, the bearer makes two bonus attacks every round of combat..."

there's more to it, but that's the relevant part.

You can have a power maul and a power sword, but you cant have AP3 from sword and +2S and concussive from the mace at the same time. You have to choose which weapon to use, AP3 or AP4 +2S concussive. Same thing with powerfist/LC combo, you dont get benefit of Shred if you use the powerfist.

so any new ides on this?

you may profit form the effect of mutating warpblade even if you kill the model with PsyPowers or some other stuff, since it never staes you must do it in close combat,
but when you do actually want to use it in close combat you can't profit form lets say +2str from the lesser reward staff ?

I'm pretty sure with the range of - and the fact it's a melee weapon I'm thinking you must hit someone with it in order to make that work. No need to break it.

Except for the Greatsword, where you just have to HAVE it.

Lungpickle wrote:
I'm pretty sure with the range of - and the fact it's a melee weapon I'm thinking you must hit someone with it in order to make that work. No need to break it.

There's nothing that suggests we should restrict special rules on melee weapons to only working in melee unless the special rule is written in such a way, for example, the Nemesis Greatsword makes specific mention that it's re-rolls only apply in melee.

If the rule is written in such a way as to work at other times, as is the case for the Mutating Warpblade, it should apply at those other times providing it breaks no other rules.

Except for the fact the Warpblade's range is quite clearly marked "Melee"...

Warp Mutation is simply an additional effect of the melee weapon the character is carrying.
By the logic of your silly argument, I could attach the 'Force' trait of a Force Staff to my Sorcerer's psychic power and insta-gib anything I hit.

In other words, you need to stick 'em to spawn 'em.

1) that's a strawman, which is really poor form in any sort of debate.

2) the Force special rule requires the wounds be inflicted by the weapon with Force