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I have a unit of 5 Ravvenwing Black Knights.

Do I run them with A) Darkshroud to soak up fire with their turn 1 turbo-boost B) Lvl 2 Telepathy Librarian to try for Invisibility, if not get Psychic Shriek and another telepathy power (most except fearless are useful to RW- Div isn't great for BKs)

Pros: Constant shroud is boss, however if Invis procs (1/3 chance) it is much better. Librarian is better in shooting phase and can close combat, while the DS will probably spend the game
moving flat out doing 0 dmg. It does add to combat res though, helps with breaking and getting the sweep. Darkshroud is cheaper overall by 40 points. I have a Lib though, and the ds is £30.

On balance the Librarian is more fun to play, but the DS is new and shiny.

Land Raider Proteus or Crusader? The Proteus can scout with the rest of the army, and the command squad inside with the dakka banner is nigh-invulnerable, with armoured ceramite
and a 4++ from PFG. Hits to reserve rolls will somewhat mitigate enemy fliers, making tabling a real possibility. The two lascannons also add much needed ranged AT to the short range biker army.
Also it's pretty damn cheap at 225 poitns. The Crusader synergises with the dakka banner, putting out the fire of 2 bike squads but will sort of lag behind the rest of the army and is more vulnerable to damag and won't run into FW grief.

Both seem viable options for the Ravenwing, however the Alpha-strike with the Proteus is far stronger and I am a firm believer in the alpha-strike.

These decisions will have to be permanent, as I've only got a limited amount to spend on the actual models.

Lastly, Az or Sam? Az can always ride in the LR and pop out when needed, while Sam is useful all game but has gakky warlord traits. I have both of them so cost isn't an issue here.

Quick reply. Lib and darkshroud.
LRC for dakka power, it can still alpha strike.
If running LR, bring Az, if not Samm.

Can't fit everything into a 1500... it's going to be either/or librarian or DS. Leaning towards Lib atm, the DS dmg output of 0 is worrying. Although multiple redundancies are useful... realistically you only need stealth/shrouded for the first and second turn though.

No, the LRC can't keep up with the 12" scout and 12" move, and wont be able to fire if it moves flat out, aside from POTMS. The Proteus can, and is rock solid and cheaper. Adding 2 Hurricanes to 80 bolter shots isn't that big a deal, while two lascannons are quite useful.

Vehicles are relentless, they can always fire the salvo 4 max shots when moving but have to snap shot if going flat out.

I think you should stick with the libby. I don't like the DS model and it is expensive money wise.

As for the DS personally I am using a puppets of war speeder to represent it becasue of the silly model (where is that guys legs?) The DS take a lot of heat off of everything else. People hate it and try to kill it so the lack of damage isn't much of a problem as it ends up soaking up shots for the rest of your bikes. If you don't like speeders then it is less effective because, as you say, its use is confined to the first few turns. In later turns it is better for baby sitting long range fire support, which in a bike army, tends to be speeders.

Personally I have been using Azrael but that is because I can finally use my Korsorro Khan on foot model! He's a badass and highly flexible because he can choose his warlord trait. The main reason I would take sammy is that he is the only way that you can have two ravenwing command squads while still having ravenwing as troops. Banner of devastaion and FNP banner would be interesting, they both compliment bikes really well although it mey be a wee bit over the top. Certainly only an option for 2000 points or higher.

 jamin484 wrote:
I think you should stick with the libby. I don't like the DS model and it is expensive money wise.

As for the DS personally I am using a puppets of war speeder to represent it becasue of the silly model (where is that guys legs?) The DS take a lot of heat off of everything else. People hate it and try to kill it so the lack of damage isn't much of a problem as it ends up soaking up shots for the rest of your bikes. If you don't like speeders then it is less effective because, as you say, its use is confined to the first few turns. In later turns it is better for baby sitting long range fire support, which in a bike army, tends to be speeders.

Personally I have been using Azrael but that is because I can finally use my Korsorro Khan on foot model! He's a badass and highly flexible because he can choose his warlord trait. The main reason I would take sammy is that he is the only way that you can have two ravenwing command squads while still having ravenwing as troops. Banner of devastaion and FNP banner would be interesting, they both compliment bikes really well although it mey be a wee bit over the top. Certainly only an option for 2000 points or higher.

You can only take one sacred standard, tops. Dev standard is too good to leave behind.The puppetswar model isn't bad but personally I really like the Darkshroud model, it's a flying gothic altar, how awesome is that?

The thing is, a savvy player will never shoot the darkshroud since it has a 2+ save. If it doesn't go flat out, it does nothing. Although I think running both makes sense I guess, the Lib can invis the BKs and run off somewhere while the shroud protects the rest of the force.

the 12" scout on the Proteus makes it far better for keeping up with the bikes- 24" on the alpha strike isn't as long as people think it is. With the Proteus you can scout 12", move 6", and still have everything in range for the PFG and Standard.. With the LRC you limit yourself to 18"+5"+24", with no PFG save.

The Proteus will be around 250 odd points, armoured cermite is 20points on top, and you will need at least the dozer blade and someone inside to carry the PFG (techy would be the cheapest at 80pts more, 105 if you decide to take the servo harness for 4 plus repair or 2 servitors at 100pts total for 3 plus repair. BUT I much prefer a 5 man command squad at 165 pts over a RW command squad at 185 for 3 men, they will get picked off first.

In regards to the libby, what if you are facing eldar or eldar allies?, in tourny play I would say a turbo boosting darkshroud might be better.

Ah, my mistake regarding the sacred banners. thanks for clearing that up.

As far as the DS goes it's win win. If they shoot at it it soaks up fire. If they don't everything else is exponentially better at soaking up low ap fire. The one thing I would say however is that it is not really a few low ap shots that kills bikes in my experience it is a torrent of high ap shots. that is why the DS is better at protecting speeders which tend to be taken down by smaller number of high strength shots which can be jinked with the added benefit of stealth.

I don't have a libby model on a bike, I've got a chaplain. I wish I had a libby because I think he adds a lot more flexibility to the force.

MarkyMark wrote:
The Proteus will be around 250 odd points, armoured cermite is 20points on top, and you will need at least the dozer blade and someone inside to carry the PFG (techy would be the cheapest at 80pts more, 105 if you decide to take the servo harness for 4 plus repair or 2 servitors at 100pts total for 3 plus repair. BUT I much prefer a 5 man command squad at 165 pts over a RW command squad at 185 for 3 men, they will get picked off first.

In regards to the libby, what if you are facing eldar or eldar allies?, in tourny play I would say a turbo boosting darkshroud might be better.

The Proteus is 225 base, and will probably run it barebones. Stuff on the techmarine is a waste imo, considering he can't have servitors if the CS is there and will never shoot the servo harness more than once or twice a game. I like to spend my points on things that will be useful from turn 1.

I don't think I can afford to run a Lib, Tech/PFG, and Darkshroud. I'm angling towards the Lib/PFG at the moment, since it works on turn 1.

I don't know anyone who plays Eldar in my group, so no.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jamin484 wrote:
Ah, my mistake regarding the sacred banners. thanks for clearing that up.

As far as the DS goes it's win win. If they shoot at it it soaks up fire. If they don't everything else is exponentially better at soaking up low ap fire. The one thing I would say however is that it is not really a few low ap shots that kills bikes in my experience it is a torrent of high ap shots. that is why the DS is better at protecting speeders which tend to be taken down by smaller number of high strength shots which can be jinked with the added benefit of stealth.

I don't have a libby model on a bike, I've got a chaplain. I wish I had a libby because I think he adds a lot more flexibility to the force.

I don't run speeders, and the DS doesn't work on turn 1 if you don't get to move first. It's not that great. Angling towards PFG at the moment... although I do love the model. Like I said, its 80 points of no firepower since you have to boost it or it dies.

Librarians are soooo good. Have you seen Psychic Shriek? Telepathy is absurdly strong.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmm, Final List based on the models I have/on the way:

Sammael
Librarian: Bike, Lvl 2, Axe, Melta Bombs

Black Knights Command
Black Knights Command
Command Squad, Banner
Techmarine, PFG

Ravenwing Squad, Melta x3
Ravenwing Squad

Darkshroud

LRC, MM

1500