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I did some more playtesting with an optimized MOSTLY all Khorne list.

Khorne Herald, Blood Throne, Exalted Locus of Wrath, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names)
9 Bloodcrushers, Icon, Instrument, Bloodhunter, Axe of Khorne
10 Bloodletters, Instrument
10 Bloodletters, Instrument
Skull Cannon of Khorne
Soul Grinder of Khorne
14 Flesh Hounds
15 Flesh Hounds
10 Plaguebearers
10 Plaguebearers
Soul Grinder of Nurgle, Phlegm Bombardment

Aegis Defense Line, Comms Relay

1999

First game was against an Optimized DE Venom Spam build. I tabled him; it was a slaughter. The venoms couldn't eat thru the Khorne Dogs fast enough (they were in ruins), and everything deep striked perfectly behind his lines.
During one of the shooting phase, I got the Khorne's Wrath warp storm result. It did a fair amount of damage, and was very enjoyable.

Second game was against an Optimized Coteaz-Purifier-Henchman build. They bent the Khorne list over really hard. The Khorne dogs destroyed a couple of Chimeras, but once they got into assault the Purifiers wiped them out.
Shooting destroyed all of the Bloodcrushers and 1 entire Bloodletter squad before they could assault. It was a massacre.

Going forward, I am going to decline to play Grey Knights in most situations with my daemons. The loss of eternal warrior is just too much; they are helpless in assault against Grey Knights. They will likely not make it there in the first
place because of the firepower. If they do make it there, anything beyond hordes of basic troopers or an Iron Armed GUO is just done.

NoArmorSave wrote:
I did some more playtesting with an optimized all Khorne list.

Khorne Herald, Blood Throne, Exalted Locus of Wrath, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names)
9 Bloodcrushers, Icon, Instrument, Bloodhunter, Axe of Khorne
10 Bloodletters, Instrument
10 Bloodletters, Instrument
Skull Cannon of Khorne
Soul Grinder of Khorne
14 Flesh Hounds
15 Flesh Hounds
10 Plaguebearers
10 Plaguebearers
Soul Grinder of Nurgle, Phlegm Bombardment

Aegis Defense Line, Comms Relay

I feel a great disturbance in your force ...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

NoArmorSave wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:
I did some more playtesting with an optimized all Khorne list.

Khorne Herald, Blood Throne, Exalted Locus of Wrath, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names)
9 Bloodcrushers, Icon, Instrument, Bloodhunter, Axe of Khorne
10 Bloodletters, Instrument
10 Bloodletters, Instrument
Skull Cannon of Khorne
Soul Grinder of Khorne
14 Flesh Hounds
15 Flesh Hounds
10 Plaguebearers
10 Plaguebearers
Soul Grinder of Nurgle, Phlegm Bombardment

Aegis Defense Line, Comms Relay

I feel a great disturbance in your force ...

Gotcha. I added the word MOSTLY. Happy now?

I am not happy about this matchup. I don't understand where GW is coming from on this. From a fluff perspective, GK should have some "bonuses" against Daemons. But auto win in most cases? They are sending a message.....

NoArmorSave wrote:

Gotcha. I added the word MOSTLY. Happy now?

Actually, I was more interested in the "why". Plaguebereares are rather useless in this setup, because your opponent can decide to zoom over your assault forces and bring the fight to your rear troops. And in my experience, Plaguebearers literally melt away when it comes up close and personal. And what about the Nurgle Grinder? It can't get cover from the ADL (unless you are cheating), so why Nurgle then?

NoArmorSave wrote:
I did some more playtesting with an optimized MOSTLY all Khorne list.

Khorne Herald, Blood Throne, Exalted Locus of Wrath, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names)
9 Bloodcrushers, Icon, Instrument, Bloodhunter, Axe of Khorne
10 Bloodletters, Instrument
10 Bloodletters, Instrument
Skull Cannon of Khorne
Soul Grinder of Khorne
14 Flesh Hounds
15 Flesh Hounds
10 Plaguebearers
10 Plaguebearers
Soul Grinder of Nurgle, Phlegm Bombardment

Aegis Defense Line, Comms Relay

1999

First game was against an Optimized DE Venom Spam build. I tabled him; it was a slaughter. The venoms couldn't eat thru the Khorne Dogs fast enough (they were in ruins), and everything deep striked perfectly behind his lines.
During one of the shooting phase, I got the Khorne's Wrath warp storm result. It did a fair amount of damage, and was very enjoyable.

Second game was against an Optimized Coteaz-Purifier-Henchman build. They bent the Khorne list over really hard. The Khorne dogs destroyed a couple of Chimeras, but once they got into assault the Purifiers wiped them out.
Shooting destroyed all of the Bloodcrushers and 1 entire Bloodletter squad before they could assault. It was a massacre.

Going forward, I am going to decline to play Grey Knights in most situations with my daemons. The loss of eternal warrior is just too much; they are helpless in assault against Grey Knights. They will likely not make it there in the first
place because of the firepower. If they do make it there, anything beyond hordes of basic troopers or an Iron Armed GUO is just done.

Well, I'd go with three Soulgrinders with S8 battle shells. They'll make a mockery out of Purifiers and Strikes.

NoArmorSave wrote:

...Second game was against an Optimized Coteaz-Purifier-Henchman build. They bent the Khorne list over really hard. The Khorne dogs destroyed a couple of Chimeras, but once they got into assault the Purifiers wiped them out.
Shooting destroyed all of the Bloodcrushers and 1 entire Bloodletter squad before they could assault. It was a massacre.

Going forward, I am going to decline to play Grey Knights in most situations with my daemons. The loss of eternal warrior is just too much; they are helpless in assault against Grey Knights. They will likely not make it there in the first
place because of the firepower. If they do make it there, anything beyond hordes of basic troopers or an Iron Armed GUO is just done.

So an army that specifically designed to outright curbstomp us... Still outright curbstomps us? Not surprising really. GK's are game-breaking against us and have been ever since GW foisted that pile of steaming rat dung of a current codex upon us.

We've always had to list tailor to compete vs the 5th ed GK codex. First Fatecrusher due to mass power weapons + multi-wound T5 and WS5/S5 goodness. Then once GK players started adding Interceptors/Strikes, we turned to Fatefiend for the smaller deep strike footprints. Then with the WD update, we finalyl got a bit of laugh with Flamer/Screamer spam... Until every single GK player wised up and just Warp-Quaked the bulk of the entire damn table.
(at least, that's been what myself and the other couple of local Daemon players have endured.)

Daemon vs GK games are a joke and have been ever since they got every possible bonus plus the kitchen sink thrown in just for laughs.


I've been thinking of trying out a Fiend/Seeker spam list w/Plaguebearers to sit back and objective grab. Fiends at least make them Ld8 for their psychic tests and get that lovely -5I on the charge. Add in killy Heralds w/Beguilement + Greater Etherblade & Lesser Reward (either Cleaving Strike or etherblade) and most Gk characters should be a non-issue.
Back it up with Grinders for transport killing & pie-plating if needed.

Having played once against a heavy Strike/'Cepter list with my Tzeentch force, I can tell you that it's a bad joke. Most of my powers got Denied and the once both the 9 strong Flamer units died, there was almost nothing I could do to even inflict damage on the Knights. (My Prince would've simply eaten pointy death sticks since he didn't land Ironarm)
Tzeentch vs GK's needs allies and likely tripple Grinders. All that psychic shooting is simply going nowhere.

 AtoMaki wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

Gotcha. I added the word MOSTLY. Happy now?

Actually, I was more interested in the "why". Plaguebereares are rather useless in this setup, because your opponent can decide to zoom over your assault forces and bring the fight to your rear troops. And in my experience, Plaguebearers literally melt away when it comes up close and personal. And what about the Nurgle Grinder? It can't get cover from the ADL (unless you are cheating), so why Nurgle then?

Huh? For 90 PTS Plaguebearers are one of the best objective holders in the game. They are not used for assault in this list, they are used for objectives. The Khorne units handle the assault.

And the ADL absolutely does cover 25% of the Soul Grinder. I own both models and have measured it. Even without the ADL, the Nurgle Soul Grinder would have a 3+ behind ruins.

You are pretty new to the game I take it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

...Second game was against an Optimized Coteaz-Purifier-Henchman build. They bent the Khorne list over really hard. The Khorne dogs destroyed a couple of Chimeras, but once they got into assault the Purifiers wiped them out.
Shooting destroyed all of the Bloodcrushers and 1 entire Bloodletter squad before they could assault. It was a massacre.

Going forward, I am going to decline to play Grey Knights in most situations with my daemons. The loss of eternal warrior is just too much; they are helpless in assault against Grey Knights. They will likely not make it there in the first
place because of the firepower. If they do make it there, anything beyond hordes of basic troopers or an Iron Armed GUO is just done.

So an army that specifically designed to outright curbstomp us... Still outright curbstomps us? Not surprising really. GK's are game-breaking against us and have been ever since GW foisted that pile of steaming rat dung of a current codex upon us.

We've always had to list tailor to compete vs the 5th ed GK codex. First Fatecrusher due to mass power weapons + multi-wound T5 and WS5/S5 goodness. Then once GK players started adding Interceptors/Strikes, we turned to Fatefiend for the smaller deep strike footprints. Then with the WD update, we finalyl got a bit of laugh with Flamer/Screamer spam... Until every single GK player wised up and just Warp-Quaked the bulk of the entire damn table.
(at least, that's been what myself and the other couple of local Daemon players have endured.)

Daemon vs GK games are a joke and have been ever since they got every possible bonus plus the kitchen sink thrown in just for laughs.


I've been thinking of trying out a Fiend/Seeker spam list w/Plaguebearers to sit back and objective grab. Fiends at least make them Ld8 for their psychic tests and get that lovely -5I on the charge. Add in killy Heralds w/Beguilement + Greater Etherblade & Lesser Reward (either Cleaving Strike or etherblade) and most Gk characters should be a non-issue.
Back it up with Grinders for transport killing & pie-plating if needed.

Having played once against a heavy Strike/'Cepter list with my Tzeentch force, I can tell you that it's a bad joke. Most of my powers got Denied and the once both the 9 strong Flamer units died, there was almost nothing I could do to even inflict damage on the Knights. (My Prince would've simply eaten pointy death sticks since he didn't land Ironarm)
Tzeentch vs GK's needs allies and likely tripple Grinders. All that psychic shooting is simply going nowhere.

Nope. I absolutely dominated GK in 5th using a hellish Fatecrusher build. I was undefeated against them, even Draigo Wing and Purifier Spam.

You are grasping at straws here. I had 2 Grinders in this list that lasted most of the game. They helped, but are hardly enough to make it a good matchup.

And Fiends with a nice killy herald is a nice thought; but THEY WILL NEVER make it into combat against a good GK player with an optimized list. If you played me, I would remove them from the table the instant they hit with overwhelming firepower (I play both armies).
Even if they did make it into combat, there is no guarantee they would do enough damage to stop a big squad of Purifiers. They have 1 round to roll hot on all of their attacks, if they fail (remember, they are 3x each now), the force weapons will simply remove them.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:
I did some more playtesting with an optimized MOSTLY all Khorne list.

Khorne Herald, Blood Throne, Exalted Locus of Wrath, Exalted Gift (Grimoire of True Names)
9 Bloodcrushers, Icon, Instrument, Bloodhunter, Axe of Khorne
10 Bloodletters, Instrument
10 Bloodletters, Instrument
Skull Cannon of Khorne
Soul Grinder of Khorne
14 Flesh Hounds
15 Flesh Hounds
10 Plaguebearers
10 Plaguebearers
Soul Grinder of Nurgle, Phlegm Bombardment

Aegis Defense Line, Comms Relay

1999

First game was against an Optimized DE Venom Spam build. I tabled him; it was a slaughter. The venoms couldn't eat thru the Khorne Dogs fast enough (they were in ruins), and everything deep striked perfectly behind his lines.
During one of the shooting phase, I got the Khorne's Wrath warp storm result. It did a fair amount of damage, and was very enjoyable.

Second game was against an Optimized Coteaz-Purifier-Henchman build. They bent the Khorne list over really hard. The Khorne dogs destroyed a couple of Chimeras, but once they got into assault the Purifiers wiped them out.
Shooting destroyed all of the Bloodcrushers and 1 entire Bloodletter squad before they could assault. It was a massacre.

Going forward, I am going to decline to play Grey Knights in most situations with my daemons. The loss of eternal warrior is just too much; they are helpless in assault against Grey Knights. They will likely not make it there in the first
place because of the firepower. If they do make it there, anything beyond hordes of basic troopers or an Iron Armed GUO is just done.

Well, I'd go with three Soulgrinders with S8 battle shells. They'll make a mockery out of Purifiers and Strikes.

Maybe, but it is not that easy. I had 2x Soulgrinders in this list. Strikes will destroy a Grinder if they assault it (assuming 2x hammers).

So you are saying that in order for Daemons to have "a chance" in a tournament enviornment, they have to run 3x Grinders? What if the GK player is using Draigo Wing?

NoArmorSave wrote:
And the ADL absolutely does cover 25% of the Soul Grinder. I own both models and have measured it. Even without the ADL, the Nurgle Soul Grinder would have a 3+ behind ruins.

It depends on how you define facing. The ADL covers 29% of the height of the soul grinder, but 25% of the model is not covered due to bulk of the mass being above the ADL. If you define facing as height, then the soul grinder gets cover. If you define facing as mass, then it does not.

Expect to have a rules debate at every event you go to when you tell people that having the last joint on the spider lets gives you a 2+ cover save.
I suggest talking about it with the TO ahead of time. Don't be surprised if they rule against you.

 labmouse42 wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:
And the ADL absolutely does cover 25% of the Soul Grinder. I own both models and have measured it. Even without the ADL, the Nurgle Soul Grinder would have a 3+ behind ruins.

It depends on how you define facing. The ADL covers 29% of the height of the soul grinder, but 25% of the model is not covered due to bulk of the mass being above the ADL. If you define facing as height, then the soul grinder gets cover. If you define facing as mass, then it does not.

Expect to have a rules debate at every event you go to when you tell people that having the last joint on the spider lets gives you a 2+ cover save.
I suggest talking about it with the TO ahead of time. Don't be surprised if they rule against you.

I disagree. The model is adequately covered by the ADL, and would receive the cover save from ground based shooting. I can clearly demonstrate this on the table where it matters.

 labmouse42 wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:
And the ADL absolutely does cover 25% of the Soul Grinder. I own both models and have measured it. Even without the ADL, the Nurgle Soul Grinder would have a 3+ behind ruins.

It depends on how you define facing. The ADL covers 29% of the height of the soul grinder, but 25% of the model is not covered due to bulk of the mass being above the ADL. If you define facing as height, then the soul grinder gets cover. If you define facing as mass, then it does not.

Expect to have a rules debate at every event you go to when you tell people that having the last joint on the spider lets gives you a 2+ cover save.
I suggest talking about it with the TO ahead of time. Don't be surprised if they rule against you.

This. The actual facing is the area of the model, NOT jus the height. There is no justification anywhere in any rule to say facing is just the height of the model.

A soulgrinder, from approx normal marine height does not get any cover from an ADL.

NoArmorSave wrote:
Nope. I absolutely dominated GK in 5th using a hellish Fatecrusher build. I was undefeated against them, even Draigo Wing and Purifier Spam.

I find that statement very odd.

I've played games against opponents, and they had a horrible match up to my army. Then watched their dice become incredibly hot and my dice completely fall apart. In my last tourney I played, my opponent killed 3 helldrakes on turn 2 by rolling 6's each time on each pen roll. He made 8 4+ cover saves in a row for his vehicles His dice were on fire, and mine were average. Even though I should have completely curb stomped him, I lost horribly.

So if you never lost a single game to GK with your fatecrusher it says one of a few things
1) You did not play GK all that often
2) You played unskilled players where crap dice won't matter due to poor list design and/or poor play
3) You have never had a game of crap luck. (this is tied to the first one, you might have just never had crap luck vs GK)

In summary, I suggest avoiding absolutes in arguements. A lot of what you talk about is valid (plague bearers being rocking objective holders, for example). This post hopefully will help you make better arguements in the future.

So you are saying that in order for Daemons to have "a chance" in a tournament enviornment, they have to run 3x Grinders? What if the GK player is using Draigo Wing?

Yeah, I guess so.
Draigo Wing is hardly played at tournaments. Paladins are much easier to take down than in the 5th ed. Most GK players stay away from the Draigo stuff.

NoArmorSave wrote:
I disagree. The model is adequately covered by the ADL, and would receive the cover save from ground based shooting. I can clearly demonstrate this on the table where it matters.

I just used my iphone to take a models eye view of the soul grinder behind the ADL. As has been noted, over 25% of the height of the model is covered, yet the bulk of the model is not.
You can disagree all day long, I am trying to tell you if you go to an event check with the TO ahead of time, as you should expect to be called on it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Draigo Wing is hardly played at tournaments. Paladins are much easier to take down than in the 5th ed. Most GK players stay away from the Draigo stuff.

Isn't the world meta very strange?
Most of the GK players I've been playing lately have switched to draigowing due to the helldrakes, which are common here.

What if you stick the quad gun right in front of him too?

 Redbeard wrote:
What if you stick the quad gun right in front of him too?

Lets leave that open to the community to decide.

From dead froward, its debatable.
From the sides, I don't think there is 25% of the facing blocked.
Either way I would mark it as a slaanesh grinder if I deployed it like so.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:
What if you stick the quad gun right in front of him too?

Lets leave that open to the community to decide.

From dead froward, its debatable.
From the sides, I don't think there is 25% of the facing blocked.
Either way I would mark it as a slaanesh grinder if I deployed it like so.

Spoiler:

Chaos ftw!

 labmouse42 wrote:

Either way I would mark it as a slaanesh grinder if I deployed it like so.

That's awesome.

 labmouse42 wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:
Nope. I absolutely dominated GK in 5th using a hellish Fatecrusher build. I was undefeated against them, even Draigo Wing and Purifier Spam.

I find that statement very odd.

I've played games against opponents, and they had a horrible match up to my army. Then watched their dice become incredibly hot and my dice completely fall apart. In my last tourney I played, my opponent killed 3 helldrakes on turn 2 by rolling 6's each time on each pen roll. He made 8 4+ cover saves in a row for his vehicles His dice were on fire, and mine were average. Even though I should have completely curb stomped him, I lost horribly.

So if you never lost a single game to GK with your fatecrusher it says one of a few things
1) You did not play GK all that often
2) You played unskilled players where crap dice won't matter due to poor list design and/or poor play
3) You have never had a game of crap luck. (this is tied to the first one, you might have just never had crap luck vs GK)

In summary, I suggest avoiding absolutes in arguements. A lot of what you talk about is valid (plague bearers being rocking objective holders, for example). This post hopefully will help you make better arguements in the future.

I played about 12 competitive games vs. GK in 5th, as well as lots of testing. I own Apocalypse sized armies of each.

Trust me, it was a terrible matchup for GK in 5th with the right build and understanding of the matchup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:

So you are saying that in order for Daemons to have "a chance" in a tournament enviornment, they have to run 3x Grinders? What if the GK player is using Draigo Wing?

Yeah, I guess so.
Draigo Wing is hardly played at tournaments. Paladins are much easier to take down than in the 5th ed. Most GK players stay away from the Draigo stuff.

That is an Urban Legend. Paladins are still extremely powerful in 6th, and are much more durable than you think.

Blackmoor recently piloted a Draigo Wing list (without an Apothecary) at the BAO, and nearly took the whole thing. He lost 1 game to you guessed it; Daemons!

I would say it's straight forward and easy to determine if 25% of the height of a model is covered but trying to figure out if 25% of the bulk is covered is allot more difficult to figure out considering these are not just boxes we play with. So I imagine most TO's will go with width/height to avoid headaches.

NoArmorSave wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:
Nope. I absolutely dominated GK in 5th using a hellish Fatecrusher build. I was undefeated against them, even Draigo Wing and Purifier Spam.

I find that statement very odd.

I've played games against opponents, and they had a horrible match up to my army. Then watched their dice become incredibly hot and my dice completely fall apart. In my last tourney I played, my opponent killed 3 helldrakes on turn 2 by rolling 6's each time on each pen roll. He made 8 4+ cover saves in a row for his vehicles His dice were on fire, and mine were average. Even though I should have completely curb stomped him, I lost horribly.

So if you never lost a single game to GK with your fatecrusher it says one of a few things
1) You did not play GK all that often
2) You played unskilled players where crap dice won't matter due to poor list design and/or poor play
3) You have never had a game of crap luck. (this is tied to the first one, you might have just never had crap luck vs GK)

In summary, I suggest avoiding absolutes in arguements. A lot of what you talk about is valid (plague bearers being rocking objective holders, for example). This post hopefully will help you make better arguements in the future.

I played about 12 competitive games vs. GK in 5th, as well as lots of testing. I own Apocalypse sized armies of each.

Trust me, it was a terrible matchup for GK in 5th with the right build and understanding of the matchup.

I don't trust you, because I know damn well what happened in my local area.

Us few Daemon players, (about 4 of us), started building Fatecrusher lists which for the most part would take apart most GK lists. (I'm not talking about Draigowing exclusively here, but Draigo+Friends, Foot armies, Henchman spam, Mech spam, etc...)
We enjoyed a few glorious weeks of success while the GK players bemoaned how broken/cheesey we were being.
However, they'd all taken notice of Fatecrusher's weakness; those mother-f*****g huge deep strike footprints! So they started bringing in some Interceptors and maaaybe a Strike Squad depending on which general build they were playing.
That put paid to Fatecrusher due to the huge amount of table even a 5-man 'Cepter squad could lock-off, AND that our tables are only 6'x4' in size.

So we turned around and changed-up Fatecrusher for Fiendfiend. Still a solid counter to GK's, but far, far smaller deep strike footprint. Just 10 Warp Quake dudes couldn't break the entire army's synergy anymore.
We started competing somewhat again, so the Knight players brought out things like trading in 1 Psyfleman for a Dreadknight w/gattling psyclencer for the weight of fire, or some Strikes to sit on point and then act as speed bumps to give the rest of the army more shooting time. (Or a couple donkeycaves who went strait to a Psybolt gunline of Strikes + 3x Psyflemen + mass transports and would then have the 'Warp Quake ftw!' to hand)

Once the WD update hit, we loaded up on the new cheaper Flamers/Screamers. So after getting crushed hard, the GK players went to Quake-spam lists as much as they possibly could.


The new codex has them slightly worried overall. (because the old staple cheap jerk-moves don't work now)

They do fear our newfound speed - especially Slaaneshii units which have to littelry be gunned down in 1 turn for it's slicey-dicey-fun-time.
GK's without allies cannot spam enough S8 at range to go for the insta-kills. 18 Fiends, (680 pts), across 3 units is putting out 54 wounds in total, on top of what cheap Seekers bring. (GK shooting is good, it's still not stopping quite that much in a single turn unless they're casting 4x Prescience/turn) Troops can simply be MSU Plaguebearers sitting in cover for 2++ objective campers.
Fiends also drop GK squad leaders down to Ld8 for their psychic tests. That's shifting the odds a bit more in our favour in regards to wether or not those force weapons get activated. And Slaaneshii Heralds will rape any GK squad leader or Inquisitor or Librarian. Grand Masters are a bit iffy due to the 4++, and Draigo & Stern are still complete b******ds!

Then there's the fact that Slaaneshii Heralds get access to Telepathy. Invisibility will make GK players absolutely rage!

I think Slaanesh is worth the time to test it out honestly, since in terms of our assault units, they've got the best chance against those filthy GK's.

Mono-Nurgle on the otherhand may just be resiliant enough to force the GK player to come to us, and depending on how many Ironarms you roll up, it might just be able to outlast the Knights in combat too.

Experiment 626 wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:
Nope. I absolutely dominated GK in 5th using a hellish Fatecrusher build. I was undefeated against them, even Draigo Wing and Purifier Spam.

I find that statement very odd.

I've played games against opponents, and they had a horrible match up to my army. Then watched their dice become incredibly hot and my dice completely fall apart. In my last tourney I played, my opponent killed 3 helldrakes on turn 2 by rolling 6's each time on each pen roll. He made 8 4+ cover saves in a row for his vehicles His dice were on fire, and mine were average. Even though I should have completely curb stomped him, I lost horribly.

So if you never lost a single game to GK with your fatecrusher it says one of a few things
1) You did not play GK all that often
2) You played unskilled players where crap dice won't matter due to poor list design and/or poor play
3) You have never had a game of crap luck. (this is tied to the first one, you might have just never had crap luck vs GK)

In summary, I suggest avoiding absolutes in arguements. A lot of what you talk about is valid (plague bearers being rocking objective holders, for example). This post hopefully will help you make better arguements in the future.

I played about 12 competitive games vs. GK in 5th, as well as lots of testing. I own Apocalypse sized armies of each.

Trust me, it was a terrible matchup for GK in 5th with the right build and understanding of the matchup.

I don't trust you, because I know damn well what happened in my local area.

Us few Daemon players, (about 4 of us), started building Fatecrusher lists which for the most part would take apart most GK lists. (I'm not talking about Draigowing exclusively here, but Draigo+Friends, Foot armies, Henchman spam, Mech spam, etc...)
We enjoyed a few glorious weeks of success while the GK players bemoaned how broken/cheesey we were being.
However, they'd all taken notice of Fatecrusher's weakness; those mother-f*****g huge deep strike footprints! So they started bringing in some Interceptors and maaaybe a Strike Squad depending on which general build they were playing.
That put paid to Fatecrusher due to the huge amount of table even a 5-man 'Cepter squad could lock-off, AND that our tables are only 6'x4' in size.

So we turned around and changed-up Fatecrusher for Fiendfiend. Still a solid counter to GK's, but far, far smaller deep strike footprint. Just 10 Warp Quake dudes couldn't break the entire army's synergy anymore.
We started competing somewhat again, so the Knight players brought out things like trading in 1 Psyfleman for a Dreadknight w/gattling psyclencer for the weight of fire, or some Strikes to sit on point and then act as speed bumps to give the rest of the army more shooting time. (Or a couple donkeycaves who went strait to a Psybolt gunline of Strikes + 3x Psyflemen + mass transports and would then have the 'Warp Quake ftw!' to hand)

Once the WD update hit, we loaded up on the new cheaper Flamers/Screamers. So after getting crushed hard, the GK players went to Quake-spam lists as much as they possibly could.


The new codex has them slightly worried overall. (because the old staple cheap jerk-moves don't work now)

They do fear our newfound speed - especially Slaaneshii units which have to littelry be gunned down in 1 turn for it's slicey-dicey-fun-time.
GK's without allies cannot spam enough S8 at range to go for the insta-kills. 18 Fiends, (680 pts), across 3 units is putting out 54 wounds in total, on top of what cheap Seekers bring. (GK shooting is good, it's still not stopping quite that much in a single turn unless they're casting 4x Prescience/turn) Troops can simply be MSU Plaguebearers sitting in cover for 2++ objective campers.
Fiends also drop GK squad leaders down to Ld8 for their psychic tests. That's shifting the odds a bit more in our favour in regards to wether or not those force weapons get activated. And Slaaneshii Heralds will rape any GK squad leader or Inquisitor or Librarian. Grand Masters are a bit iffy due to the 4++, and Draigo & Stern are still complete b******ds!

Then there's the fact that Slaaneshii Heralds get access to Telepathy. Invisibility will make GK players absolutely rage!

I think Slaanesh is worth the time to test it out honestly, since in terms of our assault units, they've got the best chance against those filthy GK's.

Mono-Nurgle on the otherhand may just be resiliant enough to force the GK player to come to us, and depending on how many Ironarms you roll up, it might just be able to outlast the Knights in combat too.

To be honest, I think the winner overall, was not grey knight's or daemons, but Games Workshop here xD So many model's bought, only to be replaced xD

Yeah the mono-Slaanesh army I had been working on can come back now.

NoArmorSave wrote:

Huh? For 90 PTS Plaguebearers are one of the best objective holders in the game. They are not used for assault in this list, they are used for objectives. The Khorne units handle the assault.

And the ADL absolutely does cover 25% of the Soul Grinder. I own both models and have measured it. Even without the ADL, the Nurgle Soul Grinder would have a 3+ behind ruins.

You are pretty new to the game I take it?

Nope. I'm a pretty old player .

And about Plaguebearers in a Khorne list, my problem is that your opponent can "zip over" your assault units and screw up your PBs easily. Say, 3rd turn Drop Pods/Outflankers, units transported in fast skimmers/flyers could do that easily, and then you could have the issue of "What should I send to relieve them?". I mean, all the hitting power in your army is busy fighting on the other side of the table, so what could you possibly spare what is also strong enough to actually do something and fast enough to reach the fight around your home objective n time? You turn back the 9 BCs? Or what? In this case I think 'letters are better, because at least they can pack some hitting power

And no, we did the actual surface math over here, and it comes out to be around ~17%. Unless the Soul Grinder sits down, then it jumps to ~28-30%.

Experiment 626 wrote:
And Slaaneshii Heralds will rape any GK squad leader or Inquisitor or Librarian. Grand Masters are a bit iffy due to the 4++, and Draigo & Stern are still complete b******ds!

Depends on who gets the charge. Psyk-out Grenades don't really care about that lovely high I.

 AtoMaki wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

Huh? For 90 PTS Plaguebearers are one of the best objective holders in the game. They are not used for assault in this list, they are used for objectives. The Khorne units handle the assault.

And the ADL absolutely does cover 25% of the Soul Grinder. I own both models and have measured it. Even without the ADL, the Nurgle Soul Grinder would have a 3+ behind ruins.

You are pretty new to the game I take it?

Nope. I'm a pretty old player .

And about Plaguebearers in a Khorne list, my problem is that your opponent can "zip over" your assault units and screw up your PBs easily. Say, 3rd turn Drop Pods/Outflankers, units transported in fast skimmers/flyers could do that easily, and then you could have the issue of "What should I send to relieve them?". I mean, all the hitting power in your army is busy fighting on the other side of the table, so what could you possibly spare what is also strong enough to actually do something and fast enough to reach the fight around your home objective n time? You turn back the 9 BCs? Or what? In this case I think 'letters are better, because at least they can pack some hitting power

And no, we did the actual surface math over here, and it comes out to be around ~17%. Unless the Soul Grinder sits down, then it jumps to ~28-30%.

I had this exact issue. What I did, was keep soulgrinder's in the back, give them long range weapons, and have them as artillery and bodyguard's for the plaguebearers, in an Aegis. Bearers get a 2+ save to shooting in there, and if they get assaulted, soulgrinder will wade in to try and save them.

Yes, you will likely lose a squad of plaguebearers, but they are so cheap, you don't just take one squad anymore
Plus, 15 point's gives them a 2 attack model with an AP2 sword, so that can help a little bit.

 AtoMaki wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

Huh? For 90 PTS Plaguebearers are one of the best objective holders in the game. They are not used for assault in this list, they are used for objectives. The Khorne units handle the assault.

And the ADL absolutely does cover 25% of the Soul Grinder. I own both models and have measured it. Even without the ADL, the Nurgle Soul Grinder would have a 3+ behind ruins.

You are pretty new to the game I take it?

Nope. I'm a pretty old player .

And about Plaguebearers in a Khorne list, my problem is that your opponent can "zip over" your assault units and screw up your PBs easily. Say, 3rd turn Drop Pods/Outflankers, units transported in fast skimmers/flyers could do that easily, and then you could have the issue of "What should I send to relieve them?". I mean, all the hitting power in your army is busy fighting on the other side of the table, so what could you possibly spare what is also strong enough to actually do something and fast enough to reach the fight around your home objective n time? You turn back the 9 BCs? Or what? In this case I think 'letters are better, because at least they can pack some hitting power

And no, we did the actual surface math over here, and it comes out to be around ~17%. Unless the Soul Grinder sits down, then it jumps to ~28-30%.

It's a Khorne army dude. It is designed to win in assault. And it does so quite well against most armies. The Nurgle Grinder sits near the home objectives and helps with defending it if needed. Also, the Khorne Dogs are fast enough to backtrack if needed.
I think you will be hard pressed to build a daemon list that can account for every game variable. As a pure Khorne list (mostly), this is what I would run at 2K.

Aegis\MON Grinder - is shrouded behind an Aegis. I would be happy to demonstrate it to you on the table. That is just the way it is going to be if you want to play me, unless I am in a tournament and the TO rules otherwise.

NoArmorSave wrote:
Aegis\MON Grinder - is shrouded behind an Aegis. I would be happy to demonstrate it to you on the table. That is just the way it is going to be if you want to play me, unless I am in a tournament and the TO rules otherwise.

Could you please demonstrate it using a phone? Take a pic and upload it to dakka.
I am curious to see how you can cover 25% of the facing. Do you place it differently than I did?

Laying down blanket statements like 'If you play me we play this way' is fine. You can also say "I play with 1500 points and you play with 1000 points. That's just the way its going to be". See how it does not really work as an arguement for your point?
Your right though, you could talk to any TO of events you attend.

...Oh god, I just realised. That model is poseable. If it turns out it doesnt get cover behind an aegis, people are gonna start ungluing the leg's, and remodelling it so it's squatting on it's butt, just off the ground, so they get the cover save. xD

Experiment 626 wrote:
I don't trust you, because I know damn well what happened in my local area.

Dude.

People are speaking their own experiences on this forum. The world is a vast and broad place. Its quite possible that he played those games he mentioned and they turned out the way they did.

The only time we should question people like that is when they start talking about national events. You can call people out when they are talking about the common lists at Adepticon or NOVA. When people are talking about their own metas, lets give em the benifit of the doubt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Evileyes wrote:
...Oh god, I just realised. That model is poseable. If it turns out it doesnt get cover behind an aegis, people are gonna start ungluing the leg's, and remodelling it so it's squatting on it's butt, just off the ground, so they get the cover save. xD

Heh, Modeling a bit for advantage eh?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Evileyes wrote:
...Oh god, I just realised. That model is poseable. If it turns out it doesnt get cover behind an aegis, people are gonna start ungluing the leg's, and remodelling it so it's squatting on it's butt, just off the ground, so they get the cover save. xD

Heh, Modeling a bit for advantage eh?