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I'm not sure if this has been done already, and if so point to the right direction please. But does the new codex make daemons better or meh or booooo!

competitive, most certainly.

A better word for it would be balanced. Hyper units have been toned down (i.e. screamers/flamers), plaguebearers are not the default troop choice, the gods have been rounded out.


Daemons feel interesting and unique. Phil Kelly did a pretty damn good job, imo.

If by "interesting and unique" you mean "completely different every time you play because EVERYTHING IN THE BOOK is generated by random dice table!".

Yeah, I'm going to be using Rewards as 'take an AP2 weapon: 10pts, take a S+1 AP2 weapon: 20pts.' Though occasionally there is something useful from the deity-specific weapon or table depending on opponent, I suppose.

Because of that, I feel like the codex has a rather high skill ceiling and isn't going to reward hitting that ceiling proportionally well. From the start you have to build around the randomness and it can still screw you or fail to provide useful options. Tzeentch in general exacerbates this badly with Warpflame and horrors becoming psykers. Baking this level of unreliability for an army in an already unreliable system is removing a little too much control from the player, I think.

I can see the random element causing some upset amongst players, I cannot believe that GW keep thinking that the randomness is actually fun.......I dislike they 40k system the more random elements are introduced.

I effectively abandoned CSM because of some of the daftness associated with the dec - i.e. must challenge etc, I can see some Demon players getting ready for the pack up as well.

Last decent codex imo was Necrons, Chaos Marine fail with only a average showing from DA and Demons...others see it differently and thats cool, I just don't like the way the game is going......

The newcron cheese fest was the last decent codex? I humbly disagree old chap, necrons, space wolves, grey knights, these all showed us what was wrong with 40k, all these new books are balanced with each other, no spam units on the scale of crons or knights... I am very happy gw is moving in the right direction.

The da codex oozes character

If thats your position then it's cool......I disagree but then thats just an opinion and is off topic here.

As for the new demons I don't think its amazing but it does seem fairly neutral in its power distribution......I just think the random element is not that great and may disappoint some demon regulars.

Lovepug13 wrote:
I can see the random element causing some upset amongst players, I cannot believe that GW keep thinking that the randomness is actually fun.......I dislike they 40k system the more random elements are introduced.

I'm one of those players that enjoy random events and effects

I love the hard feelings about DoC not getting an overpowered codex

The Necron codex is fine except for the flyers - and I don't really blame 'em for it as I'm sure they were forced to make them too strong due to the new flyer rules / models.

 Gargantuan wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:
I can see the random element causing some upset amongst players, I cannot believe that GW keep thinking that the randomness is actually fun.......I dislike they 40k system the more random elements are introduced.

I'm one of those players that enjoy random events and effects

Then GW is fulfilling your requirements

I personally don't like them but lets see what the bulk of the demon players think.....A few guys I know who are demon players are not entirely happy but that is within my gaming circle and they were running some fairly filthy lists - i.e. tallyman and nurgle marines or Fateweaver and spam etc...

I've read most of the book now and I'd say it's very competitive.

Greater Daemons are very nasty and seem to be costed fairly, I wouldn't want to face one. The random charts look fun, excluding the exalted gifts, I'd say the vast majority of results are really good things to have (wish I could say the same for fantasy).

Also since you can buy multiple rolls there's a good chance of getting what you want.

Great Unclean One is my favourite, imagine him with 4+ FNP and reroll ward saves (you'd need some lucky rolls but there's a good chance you'll get one of the two). Even if you don't get either of those there are some good ones like +1 wound.

I predict that 2 x greater and 1 lesser gift will be the go-to buy for Greater Daemons.

You can always swap out a result for an AP2 weapon that strikes at initiative. This alone gives the codex a huge competitive edge I think. Even unit champions can get one and they are very cheap.

The amount of AP2 striking at initiative is scary good Daemonettes striking at i5 with a herald will be putting out a crap ton of AP2 hits before the enemy even gets to hit back, not to mention the rest of the unit has rending.

I guess they have balanced it by making all daemons glass cannons, what with all troops (bar plaguebearers) being T3. But I'd say they are all costed well points-wise.

Some units are a waste of time like flamers and stuff that got nerfed hard, but meh, solid troop choices and excellent HQ, definitely worth buying this book if you're into 40k daemons.

The book has been out like 8 hours ( depending on where you are ).

I'm pretty sure NO ONE KNOWS. They won't know until a bunch of games have been played.

The Random tables, really are not that bad. The Gifts are all pretty good, AND you get a Primaris.

Troops are much cheaper now, and can be taken in Hordes.

Units like Flamers and Screamers, still pack quite a punch.

You can play the Psychic game like no other army.

I think Daemons probably have the ability to customize their army, more so than anyone else. With 4 Heralds per HQ slot, and the amount of stuff you can do to customize them, leaves a massive amount of options available.

 lordofthegophers wrote:

Some units are a waste of time like flamers and stuff that got nerfed hard, but meh, solid troop choices and excellent HQ, definitely worth buying this book if you're into 40k daemons.

I don't think Flamers are that bad TBH; they still put out a metric crapton of hits when flaming. They're just not the bane of everything anymore.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:

Some units are a waste of time like flamers and stuff that got nerfed hard, but meh, solid troop choices and excellent HQ, definitely worth buying this book if you're into 40k daemons.

I don't think Flamers are that bad TBH; they still put out a metric crapton of hits when flaming. They're just not the bane of everything anymore.

Flamers will cause a boatload of wounds. and still are fantastic for overwatch.

I can see opponents getting frustrated with Soul Grinders of Nurgle behind an aegis. 2+ cover save anyone?

 lordofthegophers wrote:
I can see opponents getting frustrated with Soul Grinders of Nurgle behind an aegis. 2+ cover save anyone?

Won't cover enough of the Soulgrinder, sadly.

 Sasori wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:
I can see opponents getting frustrated with Soul Grinders of Nurgle behind an aegis. 2+ cover save anyone?

Won't cover enough of the Soulgrinder, sadly.

Really? That sucks, I don't own the model so I'm not sure how big the thing is, but yeah looking at it now you're probably right. Still, if you can get it behind something...

 lordofthegophers wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:
I can see opponents getting frustrated with Soul Grinders of Nurgle behind an aegis. 2+ cover save anyone?

Won't cover enough of the Soulgrinder, sadly.

Really? That sucks, I don't own the model so I'm not sure how big the thing is, but yeah looking at it now you're probably right. Still, if you can get it behind something...

You need to see the model

It's good, but it's hard to cope now without buying a lot more troops models.

Some model's are also disgustingly costly point's wise. 52 point's for a beast of nurgle, yeah it got better, but it's nowhere near as good as say, 2 assault terminator's. Especially with no AP whatsoever, can't take a herald, and only a 5+ save.

I put all my Daemons on round bases and use custom movement trays so I can use them in Fantasy too.

Annoyingly all the good units in 40k seem to be useless in Fantasy, and vice versa

Apart from Plaguebearers, they seem fairly solid in both.

Evileyes wrote:
It's good, but it's hard to cope now without buying a lot more troops models.

Some model's are also disgustingly costly point's wise. 52 point's for a beast of nurgle, yeah it got better, but it's nowhere near as good as say, 2 assault terminator's. Especially with no AP whatsoever, can't take a herald, and only a 5+ save.

Hence why 2 Assault Terminators cost 80 points (at least). What's your point?

Do they really? I thought they were only 25 point's each.

My bad, not played imperium in a long time it seem's xD

This makes me slightly happier

New CD book?

Anything but tzeentch is competitive, well anything without flamers and screamers that nerf bat hit a home run and I cheered.

Honestly, I got the book today and...I'm finding it really really hard to build a worthwhile army, without focusing on troops.

Everything get's very expencive, very quickly, to the point where I have less models than a grey knight army, but nothing but 5+ saves across the whole army. It just feels like, even with everything I can give them, nothing takes away the fact that everything only has a 5+ save. IF you get very lucky, you might get the 3+ armour buff, but that's random and unreliable, and you have to spend a ton of point's just to have the hope of getting it.

I feel like even with a ton of nurgle stuff, i'm not going to be resilient enough to get to the other side of the board.

Also, if I play it hordey, I have the issue of being neither able to shoot with most of my troops, or move quickly with most of my troops, unless I take daemonettes.

 juraigamer wrote:
New CD book?

Anything but tzeentch is competitive, well anything without flamers and screamers that nerf bat hit a home run and I cheered.

Screamers are still very good.

Flamers are still good.

They're just not super OP anymore.

 Sasori wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
New CD book?

Anything but tzeentch is competitive, well anything without flamers and screamers that nerf bat hit a home run and I cheered.

Screamers are still very good.

Flamers are still good.

They're just not super OP anymore.

Well, I have to admit, flamers are a bit...well, I think they over-nerfed them a bit, with the whole giving the enemy feel no pain thing.

But Screamers have been made purely tankhunter's again (Though they can slashing attack as they get to tanks, which is handy), and that's a good thing in my eyes. Those thing's shouldn't be winning combat unless it's against a tank, and it's not almost 100% guaranteed they will mince the tank anymore.

Evileyes wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
New CD book?

Anything but tzeentch is competitive, well anything without flamers and screamers that nerf bat hit a home run and I cheered.

Screamers are still very good.

Flamers are still good.

They're just not super OP anymore.

Well, I have to admit, flamers are a bit...well, I think they over-nerfed them a bit, with the whole giving the enemy feel no pain thing.

But Screamers have been made purely tankhunter's again (Though they can slashing attack as they get to tanks, which is handy), and that's a good thing in my eyes. Those thing's shouldn't be winning combat unless it's against a tank, and it's not almost 100% guaranteed they will mince the tank anymore.

Flamers should be able to at least get 3-4 models under a template. If you have a large enough squad, they should be able to easily obilitrate most squads, just by the sheer amount of wounds they will cause. They still are 2W Jump infantry, for fairly cheap. You still don't want to charge these suckers.

Screamers do get 4 Attacks on the charge, so they can cause a fair amount casualties on the squad they charge, and unless they charge something with a lot of Strength 8 to ID them, with 2W each it's not likely you're going to lose the combat. You can then use their Lamprey Bite to wipe them out in their turn, to avoid getting shot. They can also hunt Tanks as well.

Just as a side not, does tzeentch have access to divination?

 Sasori wrote:

Evileyes wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
New CD book?

Anything but tzeentch is competitive, well anything without flamers and screamers that nerf bat hit a home run and I cheered.

Screamers are still very good.

Flamers are still good.

They're just not super OP anymore.

Well, I have to admit, flamers are a bit...well, I think they over-nerfed them a bit, with the whole giving the enemy feel no pain thing.

But Screamers have been made purely tankhunter's again (Though they can slashing attack as they get to tanks, which is handy), and that's a good thing in my eyes. Those thing's shouldn't be winning combat unless it's against a tank, and it's not almost 100% guaranteed they will mince the tank anymore.

Flamers should be able to at least get 3-4 models under a template. If you have a large enough squad, they should be able to easily obilitrate most squads, just by the sheer amount of wounds they will cause. They still are 2W Jump infantry, for fairly cheap. You still don't want to charge these suckers.

Screamers do get 4 Attacks on the charge, so they can cause a fair amount casualties on the squad they charge, and unless they charge something with a lot of Strength 8 to ID them, with 2W each it's not likely you're going to lose the combat. You can then use their Lamprey Bite to wipe them out in their turn, to avoid getting shot. They can also hunt Tanks as well.

Oh don't get me wrong, I don't think they are neccararilly bad. Just, they are one of a few good options, and I likely wouldn't pick them over the other choices now.