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 ScreamPaste wrote:
Some things are too consistent across sources to be rumour. Sanguinius physically dominating a greater daemon comes to mind.

As for the Mortarion thing, I do not believe so, as it was during the HH.

Edit: The above is at Roadkill.

@Crimson

IIRC, Luther was amped by Chaos when that occured.

Curze allowed himself to be killed, and I have nothing to say on Dorn as what actually happened there is speculation.

Well, if it was during the HH then Mortarion was most certainly empowered by Chaos. That would mean the laws of reality don't apply to him anymore as the Chaos factor makes him able to withstand a lascannon to the brainpan.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

What noone is really looking at is the Ork.

They don't have an upper limit, there is no ceiling on how big and powerful an ork can grow, they tend to be limited simply by lifespan being short due to ongoing conflict and eventually running out of luck.

Most important I think would be the Waagh! effect. The Emperor is an alpha-plus Psyker. Most physical forces without protection from Psychic powers are going to be toast going up against one. And as someone else mentioned earlier in the thread, that situation has been elaborated on (there were a lot of Orks present, for instance).

Roadkill Zombie wrote:people's belief of the world being flat in the middle ages.

An assertion with exceedingly little proof other than what a few Victorians came up with if I recall correctly.

Crimson wrote:Yes, just like every a bit more experienced chaos marine. Even if we accept that he was a really powerful chaos marine, this basically means that a CSM lord fought Primarch on equal terms.

We have no idea how much power the Ruinous Powers put into Luther. It was one of two chances they had following the Heresy (that we know of) of taking out a Loyalist Primarch. Primarchs were a big deal (not so much due to their physical prowess but because of their leadership qualities).

How can he allow himself to be killed if he is immune to bloody missiles?

Power swords are really good at cutting?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

We have no idea how much power the Ruinous Powers put into Luther. It was one of two chances they had following the Heresy (that we know of) of taking out a Loyalist Primarch. Primarchs were a big deal (not so much due to their physical prowess but because of their leadership qualities).

So if Chaos can elevate some random second-class marine reject to equal powerlevel with the supposedly invincible Primarchs, why the hell have they not done so since? I think Abaddon would appreciate some of that mojo.

Power swords are really good at cutting?

Better than Lascannons and missiles? I don't think so.

 Crimson wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

We have no idea how much power the Ruinous Powers put into Luther. It was one of two chances they had following the Heresy (that we know of) of taking out a Loyalist Primarch. Primarchs were a big deal (not so much due to their physical prowess but because of their leadership qualities).

So if Chaos can elevate some random second class marine reject to equal powerlevel with Primarch, why the hell have they not done so since? I think Abaddon would appreciate some of that mojo.

Power swords are really good at cutting?

Better than Lascannons and missiles? I don't think so.

Good point. Standard power weapons on the TT are strength 3/4, AP 3.
ML's are strength 8, AP 3
Lascannons are strength 9, AP 2.

Just to throw some more Primarch durability points out there:

- "Vulkan Lives" (also the name of the upcoming book about him) through a weapon powerful enough to create a mushroom cloud.

- Ferrus survives a Thunder Hammer to the head and being punched repeatedly by Fulgrim; with said punch capable of crushing a Terminator helmet or an Avatar's face.

- Fulgrim survives being punched by a Wraithlord.

- Angron survived being crushed by fortifications.

- Prince of Crows/Age of Darkness:


So... Uh... Discuss. Personally, I'm not planning to stay in the discussion, anymore.

 Just Dave wrote:
Just to throw some more Primarch durability points out there:

- "Vulkan Lives" (also the name of the upcoming book about him) through a weapon powerful enough to create a mushroom cloud.

- Ferrus survives a Thunder Hammer to the head and being punched repeatedly by Fulgrim; with said punch capable of crushing a Terminator helmet or an Avatar's face.

- Fulgrim survives being punched by a Wraithlord.

- Angron survived being crushed by fortifications.

- Prince of Crows/Age of Darkness:

Spoiler:

Curze survives his throat being cut. And as for Curze's death: decapitation (same for Ferrus, but willing).

So... Uh... Discuss. Personally, I'm not planning to stay in the discussion, anymore.

Could be put down to propaganda, and 10,000 years of embellishment. (Like an extremely long game of Chinese whispers, you're going to end up with something completely different than when you started).

 Just Dave wrote:
Just to throw some more Primarch durability points out there:

- "Vulkan Lives" (also the name of the upcoming book about him) through a weapon powerful enough to create a mushroom cloud.

- Ferrus survives a Thunder Hammer to the head and being punched repeatedly by Fulgrim; with said punch capable of crushing a Terminator helmet or an Avatar's face.

- Fulgrim survives being punched by a Wraithlord.

- Angron survived being crushed by fortifications.

- Prince of Crows/Age of Darkness:

Spoiler:

Curze survives his throat being cut. And as for Curze's death: decapitation (same for Ferrus, but willing).

So... Uh... Discuss. Personally, I'm not planning to stay in the discussion, anymore.

Again, Fulgrim was enhanced by the Chaos powers at that time, so it doesn't count for just primarch power, it counts as primarch+daemon of chaos power.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
Just to throw some more Primarch durability points out there:

- "Vulkan Lives" (also the name of the upcoming book about him) through a weapon powerful enough to create a mushroom cloud.

- Ferrus survives a Thunder Hammer to the head and being punched repeatedly by Fulgrim; with said punch capable of crushing a Terminator helmet or an Avatar's face.

- Fulgrim survives being punched by a Wraithlord.

- Angron survived being crushed by fortifications.

- Prince of Crows/Age of Darkness:

Spoiler:

Curze survives his throat being cut. And as for Curze's death: decapitation (same for Ferrus, but willing).

So... Uh... Discuss. Personally, I'm not planning to stay in the discussion, anymore.

Again, Fulgrim was enhanced by the Chaos powers at that time, so it doesn't count for just primarch power, it counts as primarch+daemon of chaos power.

So much for staying out of the discussion, but... Fulgrim was un-possessed at the time.

Selym wrote:Could be put down to propaganda, and 10,000 years of embellishment. (Like an extremely long game of Chinese whispers, you're going to end up with something completely different than when you started).

That was all stated within narration; rather than historical accounts. Curze's death may be seen as an exception of this, as it may have been from the memory of Talos (I can't recall for sure).

 Just Dave wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
Just to throw some more Primarch durability points out there:

- "Vulkan Lives" (also the name of the upcoming book about him) through a weapon powerful enough to create a mushroom cloud.

- Ferrus survives a Thunder Hammer to the head and being punched repeatedly by Fulgrim; with said punch capable of crushing a Terminator helmet or an Avatar's face.

- Fulgrim survives being punched by a Wraithlord.

- Angron survived being crushed by fortifications.

- Prince of Crows/Age of Darkness:

Spoiler:

Curze survives his throat being cut. And as for Curze's death: decapitation (same for Ferrus, but willing).

So... Uh... Discuss. Personally, I'm not planning to stay in the discussion, anymore.

Again, Fulgrim was enhanced by the Chaos powers at that time, so it doesn't count for just primarch power, it counts as primarch+daemon of chaos power.

So much for staying out of the discussion, but... Fulgrim was un-possessed at the time.

Selym wrote:Could be put down to propaganda, and 10,000 years of embellishment. (Like an extremely long game of Chinese whispers, you're going to end up with something completely different than when you started).

That was all stated within narration; rather than historical accounts. Curze's death may be seen as an exception of this, as it may have been from the memory of Talos (I can't recall for sure).

And bearing in mind where we're at in warhammer 40k's timeline, who narrated it?

They were from the Horus Heresy novels: omniscient, present narration.

"It's all up to interpretation, here's my totally unsubstantiated speculation on the matter" is a massive cop-out. No one cares about your unsubstantiated speculation, fellas.

 Just Dave wrote:
They were from the Horus Heresy novels: omniscient, present narration.

And here, I shall fall back onto an old point. Nothing is truly cannon. They are all possibilities and author's interpretations.
If you want your Primarchs to survive almost anything, I'm not going to stop you. But my personal preference is that the HH novels are embellished versions of the truth, and that the Primarchs relied more on their wits than their bodies to survive this kind of punishment.

 Just Dave wrote:

That was all stated within narration; rather than historical accounts.

This doesn't matter. We've been over this. It can still be a myth.

Things you posted seem ludicrous to me, but in any case the Primarch powerlevel seems to vary so wildly that it stops making sense if we try to take it all to be literally true. Either they can shrug off thunder hammer and lascannon hits to the unarmoured face or they can be decapitated by power swords and challenged by normal chaos marines. Both of these just cannot be true at the same time.

 Crimson wrote:

This doesn't matter. We've been over this. It can still be a myth.

Where is your evidence that these things are a myth.

A fascinating thread.

"i don't like this fluff, so it doesn't count"
" stats are the real measure"
" all is propaganda"
"Empy and Primarchs are weaklings who die easily...( does not realize they cut down on the ork opponents awesomeness too) "

Why is this in 40k background at all if the background and its sources can't be used?
Seriously? This reads like a gathering of 6 year olds in a sandbox.

1.) orks are either like MGS says or we will use the IIUP to gauge them but those who think they can diminish the power level of Emperor and Primarchs have to explain this result to the ork fan-base themselves.

2.) the fluff didn't state it was some run of the mill ork.

3.) if an ork can be from grot to titan sized , where is the problem?

4.) eldar get their avatars choked to death regularly...

5.) the Emperor survived it. So an attempt to choke him seems unsuccessful and not the way to win for an ork.

 Crimson wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:

That was all stated within narration; rather than historical accounts.

This doesn't matter. We've been over this. It can still be a myth.

Things you posted seem ludicrous to me, but in any case the Primarch powerlevel seems to vary so wildly that it stops making sense if we try to take it all to be literally true. Either they can shrug off thunder hammer and lascannon hits to the unarmoured face or they can be decapitated by power swords and challenged by normal chaos marines. Both of these just cannot be true at the same time.

Hmm... I shall refer readers to my previous post

 1hadhq wrote:
A fascinating thread.

"i don't like this fluff, so it doesn't count"
" stats are the real measure"
" all is propaganda"
"Empy and Primarchs are weaklings who die easily...( does not realize they cut down on the ork opponents awesomeness too) "

Why is this in 40k background at all if the background and its sources can't be used?
Seriously? This reads like a gathering of 6 year olds in a sandbox.

1.) orks are either like MGS says or we will use the IIUP to gauge them but those who think they can diminish the power level of Emperor and Primarchs have to explain this result to the ork fan-base themselves.

2.) the fluff didn't state it was some run of the mill ork.

3.) if an ork can be from grot to titan sized , where is the problem?

4.) eldar get their avatars choked to death regularly...

5.) the Emperor survived it. So an attempt to choke him seems unsuccessful and not the way to win for an ork.

exalted.

 Just Dave wrote:
They were from the Horus Heresy novels: omniscient, present narration.

There is no such thing.

I'll post this again:

"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
- Marc Gascoigne, Editor, Black Library

 Crimson wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
They were from the Horus Heresy novels: omniscient, present narration.

There is no such thing.

I'll post this again:

"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
- Marc Gascoigne, Editor, Black Library

Good find, I've been looking for that one

Selym wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
They were from the Horus Heresy novels: omniscient, present narration.

And here, I shall fall back onto an old point. Nothing is truly cannon. They are all possibilities and author's interpretations.
If you want your Primarchs to survive almost anything, I'm not going to stop you. But my personal preference is that the HH novels are embellished versions of the truth, and that the Primarchs relied more on their wits than their bodies to survive this kind of punishment.

I never claimed it to be truly canon.

It is however, the most recent and detailed description of events; which is how I 'decide' on my (personal) canon (going back to the ol' "different interpretations"/"nothing is canon" way of dissolving a debate).

I'm not saying I want my Primarchs to be anything; I'm just stating what I've read. Personally, considering they were no-doubt created by the combined wits of the Emperor and Chaos Gods, I can believe the Primarchs are capable of such things.

BlaxicanX wrote:

Where is your evidence that these things are a myth.

I have no such evidence, nor do I need it. See, I've never claimed that they must be a myth, I said they might be a myth. There's a difference.

 Crimson wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

Where is your evidence that these things are a myth.

I have no such evidence

So why should anyone respect or care about your statements, here? You've made your point already that you ignore fluff you don't like. So how are you contributing to the thread by trying to debate, without having an actual argument to debate with.

 Just Dave wrote:

Selym wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
They were from the Horus Heresy novels: omniscient, present narration.

And here, I shall fall back onto an old point. Nothing is truly cannon. They are all possibilities and author's interpretations.
If you want your Primarchs to survive almost anything, I'm not going to stop you. But my personal preference is that the HH novels are embellished versions of the truth, and that the Primarchs relied more on their wits than their bodies to survive this kind of punishment.

I never claimed it to be truly canon.

It is however, the most recent and detailed description of events; which is how I 'decide' on my (personal) canon (going back to the ol' "different interpretations"/"nothing is canon" way of dissolving a debate).

I'm not saying I want my Primarchs to be anything; I'm just stating what I've read. Personally, considering they were no-doubt created by the combined wits of the Emperor and Chaos Gods, I can believe the Primarchs are capable of such things.

You have a fair point. Tzeentch does tend to give his minions plot armour so thick that even Matt Ward has trouble penetrating it


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

Where is your evidence that these things are a myth.

I have no such evidence

So why should anyone respect or care about your statements, here? You've made your point already that you ignore fluff you don't like. So how are you contributing to the thread by trying to debate, without having an actual argument to debate with.

He is debating with a fairly good point. I haven't seen you back up any of your statements recently

And that's why I was going to stay out of this thread: I feel like there's too many people too set on an opinion to make it a debate really worth having, IMHO

BlaxicanX wrote:

So why should anyone respect or care about your statements, here? You've made your point already that you ignore fluff you don't like. So how are you contributing to the thread by trying to debate, without having an actual argument to debate with.

Do you realise that there is a shitton of GW fluff that contradicts some other part of the fluff? It is all just cannot be true at the same time. Everyone has to ignore certain parts of fluff, or conclude that we just don't know the truth.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
He is debating with a fairly good point. I haven't seen you back up any of your statements recently

In order to have a good point you have to have evidence to support it. It may be a myth is, by itself, a meaningless statement. Destroyo, the Primarch I made up in a fan-fiction last week, may win in a Primarch free-for-all, but if I posted that in the thread below this one, and proceeded to debate with people about it, I would be contributing nothing to the actual discussion.

 Crimson wrote:


Do you realise that there is a shitton of GW fluff that contradicts some other part of the fluff? It is all just cannot be true at the same time. Everyone has to ignore certain parts of fluff, or conclude that we just don't know the truth.

So? The same is true for Star Wars or Halo any large sci-fi/fantasy universe. That's why human beings have brains, so we can analyze it objectively.

Furthermore, you're making a red-herring here. You aren't ignoring some fluff in favor of other fluff. You're ignoring all fluff in favor in favor of an opinion that is supported by no fluff.

Since its been mentioned a few times... can someone explain to me how you would choke an avatar?
They are hot iron with a molten lava core, they dont exactly need to breath, have no lungs, and wouldnt need oxygen for cellular respiration seeing as they are made of metal.

And as far as primarchs go, I agree that they probably have a lot of plot armor and padding because their feats are written of like they are a big deal, but if they were so strong I doubt wining ANY 1 on 1 fight would be worth writing about, and even so they would be written about more frequently than "primarch X killed (insert strong being here) that one time".

 VanHammer wrote:
Since its been mentioned a few times... can someone explain to me how you would choke an avatar?
They are hot iron with a molten lava core, they dont exactly need to breath, have no lungs, and wouldnt need oxygen for cellular respiration seeing as they are made of metal.

The quotes are "crushed the life", "crushing the life" and "watching as the life fled from its eyes"; interpret that how you will.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlaxicanX wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
He is debating with a fairly good point. I haven't seen you back up any of your statements recently

In order to have a good point you have to have evidence to support it. It may be a myth is, by itself, a meaningless statement. Destroyo, the Primarch I made up in a fan-fiction last week, may win in a Primarch free-for-all, but if I posted that in the thread below this one, and proceeded to debate with people about it, I would be contributing nothing to the actual discussion.

 Crimson wrote:


Do you realise that there is a shitton of GW fluff that contradicts some other part of the fluff? It is all just cannot be true at the same time. Everyone has to ignore certain parts of fluff, or conclude that we just don't know the truth.

So? The same is true for Star Wars or Halo any large sci-fi/fantasy universe. That's why human beings have brains, so we can analyze it objectively.

Furthermore, you're making a red-herring here. You aren't ignoring some fluff in favor of other fluff. You're ignoring all fluff in favor in favor of an opinion that is supported by no fluff.

Personally - like you I suspect - I'm finding that the "nothing is canon" argument (which by now I'm sure we are all aware of) is too readily used to prevent meaningful debate or reaching of "conclusions", particularly in the face of counter-evidence.

BlaxicanX wrote:

So? The same is true for Star Wars or Halo any large sci-fi/fantasy universe. That's why human beings have brains, so we can analyze it objectively.

Furthermore, you're making a red-herring here. You aren't ignoring some fluff in favor of other fluff. You're ignoring all fluff in favor in favor of an opinion that is supported by no fluff.

I have analysed the matter, and found that there are contradictions. I've quoted the official GW stance for said contradictions: that things might be myths, legends or half-truths. When resolving contradictions to get consistent 'truth' of the settings, we have to dismiss certain parts of fluff as not-quite-true. I've stated my personal opinion what interpretation I prefer. What I've not done, is said that other interpretation is simply wrong.

There will be no 'evidence' that suddenly convinces everyone about the truth, as there is no truth. It is all fiction. It is not real.

 Crimson wrote:

I have analysed the matter, and found that there are contradictions.

Provide these fluff instances that contradict the Primarch feats found in the Horus Heresy series.