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Roadkill Zombie wrote:
@ Void_Dragon

I've never said that I believe they are simply Space Marines +. They definitely did do some pretty incredible things. The part I take issue with is when Primarch fanboyism gets so rampant as to make them into something they are not. When the fanboyism on the Primarchs gets to the point of misquoting things from the Horus Heresy series to prove the fanboy's point, it makes it hard to have any kind of reasonable discussion without things breaking down into "face it, the EMPRAH is the greatest thing EVER and no one can deny it!..oh..and so are the Primarchs!..oh and while we are at it..So are the SPEZZ MEHREENS!"

That part wasn't necessarily towards you, but rather towards some specific individuals within this thread in general. Should have made that more clear, it was rather late, and I have taken ill, so my posts might come off exactly as I intended them to.

What are they not?

"But the Necrons.."

" NO!..The EMprah iz tha Greatest!"

Pft, the Emperor could only barely beat me while I was starving and weakened.

" But the Eldar..."

"NO! HERESY! No one can beat one of the EMPRA's Primarchs!"

I can't think of any Eldar heroes on par with the Primarchs, honestly.

Eldrad gets thrown around a lot, but he doesn't really have the showings to suggest he is as powerful a psyker as Lorgar, let alone Magnus, for example.

" But the Orks..."

"NO!..THa EMprah Is the GREATEST!...He could NEVER be killed by an ORK!...HERESY!"

Conceivably, it is possible for an Ork more powerful than the Emperor to exist, but it hasn't happened yet, IMO. At least, that we have seen.

You see, that is the kind of reasoning that always pops up whenever the subject of the Emperor or the Primarchs gets brought up. Fanboys for the Imperial side of things go crazy and don't allow for normal discussion. They always come into these threads and claim they are going to set things straight. Yet they misquote things all the time and don't tell the complete story to back up their claims.

+I misquote nothing.+

Maugan Ra is a good example of an Eldar hero that is like a Primarch. You cannot kill him permanently like a Primarch can be killed.

He went into the Eye of Terror by himself during the 13th Black Crusade and was not warped by Chaos in any way.

He gathered the remnants of his old Craftworld and led them out of they Eye of Terror.

He stood alone against a Tyranid Swarm from Hive Fleet Leviathan and single handedly defeated it.

And he did all of that without an invulnerable save!

He taught the Eldar Aspect Warriors of the Dark Reaper Aspect how to fight.

I agree that Phoenix Lords should be Eldar equivalent of Primarchs. Sadly their stats do not match their fluff.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Maugan Ra is a good example of an Eldar hero that is like a Primarch. You cannot kill him permanently like a Primarch can be killed.

He went into the Eye of Terror by himself during the 13th Black Crusade and was not warped by Chaos in any way.

He gathered the remnants of his old Craftworld and led them out of they Eye of Terror.

He stood alone against a Tyranid Swarm from Hive Fleet Leviathan and single handedly defeated it.

And he did all of that without an invulnerable save!

He taught the Eldar Aspect Warriors of the Dark Reaper Aspect how to fight.

Oh right, Maugan Ra...

Christ, you wanna talk about plot armour, Maugan Ra's plot-pauldrons are so large and impregnable that the Space Wolves would be rendered green with envy, lol.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Oh right, Maugan Ra...

Christ, you wanna talk about plot armour, Maugan Ra's plot-pauldrons are so large and impregnable that the Space Wolves would be rendered green with envy, lol.

And that's the thing. You feel that Maugan Ra's exploits are ludicrous (I would agree that some of them indeed are.) And that's exactly how some of us feel about the tales about Primarchs. Still, all of that is official. Whether these accounts are accurate or mere exaggerated legends is up to the reader.

And relating to that and something you said in your earlier post: I have never claimed that stuff in HH books must be myths, I merely said it might be.

I don't recall any Primarchs jumping out of the Eye of Terror with their craftworlds on their back.

And frankly, I have never really seen anything from Phoenix Lords to justify the hype Dakka and other 40k players give them, with the sole exception of Maugan Ra's hilarious exploits.

Maugan Ra's exploits come off as more ridiculous IMO because they actually are what people claim the BL Primarchs do: Short, not very dramatic descriptions of pwnage.

I certainly think its feasible physically, Ork warbosses are insanely strong. If it was flat out huge, then no doubt it would have the strength, although, surely he would melt its face in 0.1 second with a psychic blast if he thought he was actually going to die?

Maybe he let it grab him, so Horus could help out, and endear himself to him?

To be fair, the fluff is endlessly contradictory, one minute the Big E has an intellect too vast to be even comprehended, and the next he acts like an absolute moron.

Space marines and primarchs are still just people except bigger stronger smarter and better in everyway but they are still human. Shoot them in the face then they die. Bullet meets brain, brain turns to mush.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Maugan Ra is a good example of an Eldar hero that is like a Primarch. You cannot kill him permanently like a Primarch can be killed.

He went into the Eye of Terror by himself during the 13th Black Crusade and was not warped by Chaos in any way.

He gathered the remnants of his old Craftworld and led them out of they Eye of Terror.

He stood alone against a Tyranid Swarm from Hive Fleet Leviathan and single handedly defeated it.

And he did all of that without an invulnerable save!

He taught the Eldar Aspect Warriors of the Dark Reaper Aspect how to fight.

Oh right, Maugan Ra...

Christ, you wanna talk about plot armour, Maugan Ra's plot-pauldrons are so large and impregnable that the Space Wolves would be rendered green with envy, lol.

As are his real pauldrons. Have you seen those things? Talk about Skull Envy!. The Imperium WISHES they had skulls that big on their shoulders!

On the subject of the Ork strangling the Emperor, if I remember correctly, the ork had just grabbed him, and as an honor thing, Horus cut the orks arm off. I'm not sure the emperor was in any real danger but may very well have been.

As Orks go, they have some of the most powerful dieties backing them up as well. There is an old story about the making of the first Gargants of the orks. In one part of the story it says:

"Gork struggled towards awareness. After centuries of dormancy it was a long process. He sensed other powers in the warp trying to interfere. He blocked a subtle tendril from Slaanesh, ignored a baleful warning from the Emperor, discounted the triumphant cry of Khorne. He reached out with his millenia-old mind and gathered the strength of his people."

Later it says:

"Gork and Mork stirred and a wave of fear passed through the warp..."

it then goes through a bunch of descriptions of what that wave of fear did, the most interesting being:

"On distant Earth, a living corpse in a golden throne opened eyes that held fear for the first time in centuries."

I figure, with Gods like that backing up the Orks, they most certainly could have given some of that power to that Ork and he could very well have been a threat to the Emperor.

Yes, I am well-aware of Gork and Mork's status as the most powerful beings within the known Warp.

The excerpt in Betrayal tells a tale of the Emperor being taken aback by a salvo of powerful Ork plasma weaponry, and, in that moment of weakness, a hulking Ork the size of a dreadnought tried to strangle the Emperor, only for Horus to swiftly cut its arm off.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I don't recall any Primarchs jumping out of the Eye of Terror with their craftworlds on their back.

And frankly, I have never really seen anything from Phoenix Lords to justify the hype Dakka and other 40k players give them, with the sole exception of Maugan Ra's hilarious exploits.

Maugan Ra's exploits come off as more ridiculous IMO because they actually are what people claim the BL Primarchs do: Short, not very dramatic descriptions of pwnage.

Phoenix lords are over ten thousand years old immortal warriors. Each of them has seen more battles than all the loyalist Primarchs combined. And if there was an entire book series dedicated to them, then we probably would have much more tales about their exploits, and told in greater detail too.

And you really can't complain about Maugan Ra. It is exactly the same things as with the Primarchs. Of course I think that some of the stories about Maugan Ra might be exaggerated myths, and real events might have been a bit less ludicrous, but as we know, you do not believe in that sort of thing, so it all happened exactly as written.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I don't recall any Primarchs jumping out of the Eye of Terror with their craftworlds on their back.

And frankly, I have never really seen anything from Phoenix Lords to justify the hype Dakka and other 40k players give them, with the sole exception of Maugan Ra's hilarious exploits.

Maugan Ra's exploits come off as more ridiculous IMO because they actually are what people claim the BL Primarchs do: Short, not very dramatic descriptions of pwnage.

There really isn't a whole lot of fluff written about them currently, that is probably why. But what is written is that they are quite literally, demi-gods of battle. Aspects of Khaine's warlike abilities so to speak.

Taken in that light, I'm not so sure what Maugan Ra did was so rediculous, being a demi-god and all.

But it still smacks of "mine's bigger than yours' " mentality, which is why I'm not really fond of any of the fluff that has been written since about 4th edition.

 Crimson wrote:
Phoenix lords are over ten thousand years old immortal warriors. Each of them has seen more battles than all the loyalist Primarchs combined. And if there was an entire book series dedicated to them, then we probably would have much more tales about their exploits, and told in greater detail too.

And you really can't complain about Maugan Ra. It is exactly the same things as with the Primarchs. Of course I think that some of the stories about Maugan Ra might be exaggerated myths, and real events might have been a bit less ludicrous, but as we know, you do not believe in that sort of thing, so it all happened exactly as written.

That proves they are old.

Every single solitary Necron Warrior is older than the entire Eldar species, but they aren't nearly so powerful as a Primarch.

I don't deny that Maugan Ra did what he did. I'm just pointing out it is worse writing than the accomplishments of the Primarchs, if only due to relative sparseness of fluff.

Even though I love ADB's writing, I think Betrayer ends up going past my limit.

First, Lorgar:


Then Angron comes in and:


And, 2 or 3 days later, both are fine and back to normal.

...

Yeah, Maugan Ra starts to seem pretty reasonable!

 Compel wrote:
Even though I love ADB's writing, I think Betrayer ends up going past my limit.

First, Lorgar:

Spoiler:

Gets point blank shot by 2, if not 3, heavy rounds from a plasma blastgun fired by a Warhound Titan. Literally gets burnt to a crisp

Then Angron comes in and:

Spoiler:

Just as Lorgar is about to be STEPPED ON by the titan, Angron runs in and lifts the foot up. Angron is actually written as being physically stronger than a titan.

And, 2 or 3 days later, both are fine and back to normal.

It's stuff like that that makes me want to ask him if he wrote the story for his 9 year old son or for the general public.

lol

I rest my case.

Provide contradictory examples of Primarch might please.

Ctan phase sword to face kills primarch

Plasma Blast Gun to face doesn't kill primarch


Plasma Blast Guns kill Titans...

Why would a Primarch be able to survive that point blank range without Chaos helping?

Yet cannot survive a Ctan Phase Sword to the face?

silly fluff is silly.

The C'Tan Phase Blade by the fluff completely annuls any form of protection, be it flesh, armour, force field, or even Warp-based constructs.

You're comparing the remnants of star system destroying deities to a mere weapon forged by men.

And by the fluff Plasma Blast Guns destroy whole cities, blow out the power fields of Titans and bring them crashing to thier knees, and hit you with the heat of a Sun, which is a Star...

And Ctan are made of what exactly?

I'm done with this. A person who could read those bits in spoiler blocks without rolling their eyes so hard it hurt is not a person I will ever be able find common ground with regarding the matters of 40K background. Or any literature, for that matter.

I shall continue ignore BL stuff, as it is apparently written by Mat Ward's eleven-year-old clone-son.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
And by the fluff Plasma Blast Guns destroy whole cities, blow out the power fields of Titans and bring them crashing to thier knees, and hit you with the heat of a Sun, which is a Star...

And Ctan are made of what exactly?

They eat stars. They are not made of stars, lol. They are beings whom transcend matter and energy as lesser races know it.

A Plasma Blast Gun is more destructive, certainly.

But a C'tan Phase Blade is by its very nature anathema to matter. Were there a huge bunker that could take a Plasma Blast Gun without much trouble, a C'tan Phase Blade would easily stab into it, but it couldn't go very deep.


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 Crimson wrote:
I'm done with this. A person who could read those bits in spoiler blocks without rolling their eyes so hard it hurt is not a person I will ever be able find common ground with regarding the matters of 40K background. Or any literature, for that matter.

I shall continue ignore BL stuff, as it is apparently written by Mat Ward's eleven-year-old clone-son.

There is more to being a good writer than arbitrarily adhering to some nonexistent acceptable tier of power.

Aaron Dembski-Bowden is a better writer than any codex writer 40k has at the moment. I'm sorry, but by any objective literary standards, this is nigh-absolute a fact.

 Crimson wrote:


I shall continue ignore BL stuff, as it is apparently written by Mat Ward's eleven-year-old clone-son.

Yeah, stick to your "superior" GW fluff, with its phoenix lords that can single-handedly defeat a Tyranid splinter fleet, and single-handedly drag a Craftworld out of the Eye of Terror. Bask in the glory of non-BL fluff like Kaldor Draigo and Calgar fighting off an ork horde by himself for an entire day, then punching an Avatar to death. Revel in 6e Daemon excerpts that state that a single Silver Skulls marine is fighting an entire planet of daemons and slowly winning.

Lulzy bias is bias.

 Crimson wrote:
I'm done with this. A person who could read those bits in spoiler blocks without rolling their eyes so hard it hurt is not a person I will ever be able find common ground with regarding the matters of 40K background. Or any literature, for that matter.

I shall continue ignore BL stuff, as it is apparently written by Mat Ward's eleven-year-old clone-son.

it helps if you're listening to Manowar at the time.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
And by the fluff Plasma Blast Guns destroy whole cities, blow out the power fields of Titans and bring them crashing to thier knees, and hit you with the heat of a Sun, which is a Star...

And Ctan are made of what exactly?

They eat stars. They are not made of stars, lol. They are beings whom transcend matter and energy as lesser races know it.

A Plasma Blast Gun is more destructive, certainly.

But a C'tan Phase Blade is by its very nature anathema to matter. Were there a huge bunker that could take a Plasma Blast Gun without much trouble, a C'tan Phase Blade would easily stab into it, but it couldn't go very deep.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
I'm done with this. A person who could read those bits in spoiler blocks without rolling their eyes so hard it hurt is not a person I will ever be able find common ground with regarding the matters of 40K background. Or any literature, for that matter.

I shall continue ignore BL stuff, as it is apparently written by Mat Ward's eleven-year-old clone-son.

There is more to being a good writer than arbitrarily adhering to some nonexistent acceptable tier of power.

Aaron Dembski-Bowden is a better writer than any codex writer 40k has at the moment. I'm sorry, but by any objective literary standards, this is nigh-absolute a fact.

you are what you eat dude. Dispute that fact.

ADB being the better than any codex writer is totally just your opinion. I happen to like some of the stories in some of the codexes and they certainly weren't written by him.

At any rate, I figure the origional question in this thread has been answered and re answered so I figure I'll let it rest.

you are what you eat dude. Dispute that fact.

lol wut

You are what you eat. That's such a stupid and inaccurate quote.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
you are what you eat dude. Dispute that fact.

ADB being the better than any codex writer is totally just your opinion. I happen to like some of the stories in some of the codexes and they certainly weren't written by him.

At any rate, I figure the origional question in this thread has been answered and re answered so I figure I'll let it rest.

Are you implying I'm a pussy?

Well, admittedly, this is at least partly because of the three main codex writers (I don't know gak about the dude who did Dark Angels), only Kelly can really seem to write some decent fluff on a consistent basis.

But in terms of rounded characters, prose, and a whole bunch of other gak I'm too lazy/tired/ill to name, ADB does indeed crush most of the game designers.

And... Is that really a surprised? ADB, and his contemporaries in BL, are writers, first, last, and always. The guys who do the codices are game designers first and foremost, writers second.


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pax_imperialis wrote:
it helps if you're listening to Manowar at the time.

Hm, I do like heroic Power Metal bands like Manowar or Ensiferum, maybe that is why I don't mind it, lol.


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 Amaya wrote:
You are what you eat. That's such a stupid and inaccurate quote.

Calm down.

Obviously calling something stupid means I have been worked up into a foaming rage.