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BRB actually states, that unless specifically stated that stats dont get reduced below 1,

nothing can bring ANY stat above 10 or below 1, again, unless SPECIFICALLY stated (pg 3 BRB)

wounds and attacks being only things that can go above 10

so if the rule doesnt specifically say it can reduce the stat below 1, then it stops at 1, it does not go to 0, because the rule does not say it can reduce I past 1

Sorry, you are wrong... it states that nothing can be reduced below 0. So 0 is entirely possible...

Page 2 : "All but one of the characteristics are rated on a scale from 0 to 10. The odd characteristic out is Armor Save..." Given the possibility, you can reduce anything to 0.

I suppose. Still not very fun to say "you have no chance to survive make your time". This isn't warmachine, denial isn't the name of the game.

Just fear Slaanesh heralds... or Deny the Witch.

It's the fiends that really do it, whenever they charge. Being able to essentially auto-win combat so long as you kill a single model makes them very powerful.

I think this should just be more about the realization that gw just made one of the most broken units since wraiths or heldrakes after a small streak of at least semi-balanced codices

The fiends problem is only on the round of the charge... after that you get to go. The problem for me is the Herald Aquiscience spell. That is something that can get renewed each turn...

So the fiends will hit like a ton of bricks but then you do get to respond or better yet, you charge them and then you don't worry about it. Fearless or Stubborn units are not going to have as much problem.

I don't believe any stats have ever gone below one (apart from WS of vehicles). Even none-shooting units have a BS of 1, for example.

Ff

Ffyllotek wrote:
I don't believe any stats have ever gone below one (apart from WS of vehicles). Even none-shooting units have a BS of 1, for example.

Ff

Nope. Genestealers have a BS 0. (It's a non-trivial problem for Broodlords who want to use the new psychic powers - they are disallowed from using psychic shooting attacks.)

 Janthkin wrote:

Ffyllotek wrote:
I don't believe any stats have ever gone below one (apart from WS of vehicles). Even none-shooting units have a BS of 1, for example.

Ff

Nope. Genestealers have a BS 0. (It's a non-trivial problem for Broodlords who want to use the new psychic powers - they are disallowed from using psychic shooting attacks.)

Old Zogwort - half his powers are unusable. Good job GW!

 Happyjew wrote:

 Janthkin wrote:

Ffyllotek wrote:
I don't believe any stats have ever gone below one (apart from WS of vehicles). Even none-shooting units have a BS of 1, for example.

Ff

Nope. Genestealers have a BS 0. (It's a non-trivial problem for Broodlords who want to use the new psychic powers - they are disallowed from using psychic shooting attacks.)

Old Zogwort - half his powers are unusable. Good job GW!

Especially dumb since all Wierdboy powers don't even scatter or roll to hit.

I would agree that if Fiends charge an enemy unit and reduce their Init to 0, that enemy cannot attack back that Fight sub-phase. Though an awesome effect, it's not really overpowered either, as Fiends are 35 points each, only 3 base attacks, and only S4 and WS4. The Rending of course could hurt in large numbers, but they've never really hit that hard in my experience even with Rending. Plus they can insta-die to S8 shots now, so the new Soporific Musk is a cool feature. Remember if you charge the Fiends, their Musk does not come into play at all, and they'll probably die off quickly due to typically low numbers and being shot along the way. So premeasure your distances from them if you fear them. Like anything in the Daemons Codex, it's the synergy of the units that's most powerful, not one all on their own, except the Bloodthirster, but he'd strike first and whoop butt before enemies anyway.

I agree I0 = cannot attack, remember though that as it is not a set modifier, anything that is unwieldywill funnily enough get to strike (as it is a set modifier).

 Krellnus wrote:
I agree I0 = cannot attack, remember though that as it is not a set modifier, anything that is unwieldywill funnily enough get to strike (as it is a set modifier).

Based on precedence (BS0 and Snap Shots) I am forced to disagree with you.

I've only used a unit of Fiends once so far, I just got five old, old, old school models for them. I found that they didn't have a very strong impact on the turn they hit, fighting Grey Hunters who managed to Counter Attack. As I have mono-Slaanesh in both Daemons and Marines, I'm used to hitting first anyway due to higher Initiative.

Basically I can't quite bring myself to suggest to my opponent that they get no chance to strike. I'm hoping that the rule IS intended that way, as then I think the Fiends will become useful/scary but hopefully not impossible to deal with. But until I can get a Daemon FAQ saying so, I won't make my mates play it that way.

Although, I am thinking of looking for one more model, so that I can run two units of three for more options. If I can hide them in terrain until a big unit of Daemonettes or similar is charging, then join the assault, I'd be very happy. I've even thought that even if they only reduce Initiative to 1, that is a happy counter to my Daemonettes having to charge enemies in cover. Striking at the same time is better than dying before I can strike!

I0 = No ability in that field = No Attacks until FAQ.

I don't see the big deal... It is a tactic... Choppa the Dakka, Dakka the Choppa. You don't want to be fiended to I0 then shoot them off the table before they get a chance.

This may be a bit of necro, if so, I'm sorry, but I just wanted to make it clear that GW has clarified the I0 thing about fiends, It's under the rulebook FAQ, not the new (lacklustre) daemons faq.

First thing under errata:

Page 2 – Modifiers
Change the last sentence to “A model’s Initiative cannot be
modified below 1, and no other characteristic can be modified
below 0”.

This makes fiends less broken, oh well.

Plus solves the argument on zero stats / reduction. Simple.

At the moment, going with RAW, I would personally say that you can't attack. In a game though, I would allow it, since it's a bit stupid.

But think about it, a model with BS 0 can't shoot, so it makes sense that a model with I0 (and A0) can't attack.

 The Shadow wrote:
At the moment, going with RAW, I would personally say that you can't attack. In a game though, I would allow it, since it's a bit stupid.

But think about it, a model with BS 0 can't shoot, so it makes sense that a model with I0 (and A0) can't attack.

It's an irrelevant question as you cannot have an I of 0.

T´his was FAQ'ed in the FAQ just a few days ago... or ERRATA'ed, rather.

Init can't go below 1.

Last BRB Faq - First page, first column, first Errata entry states Initiative cannot go lower than 1, whereas other characteristics can go to 0.

As noted, the FAQ renders this conversation moot.

Thread terminated.