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In several HH novels they suggest that he did and failed to produce his end of the bargain. Your thoughts?

It is implied heavily, but most of those doing the implying are daemons and the like, so their testimony is not the most credible. In A Thousand Son's Magnus tells Ahriman that his father had had dealings with ancient powers in the warp, but it is not directly implied that it had anything to do with the primarch project.

Personally, I don't believe the HH writers have made their own consensus on the subject. I feel like Graham Mcneill is a big proponent of this storyline, but I feel like Gav Thorpe with Deliverance Lost moved further away from this idea.

I'm a big fan of "believe what you want to believe if you can shoehorn it in to the fun house maze that is 40k canon," and I practice what I preach. (I believe that Malcador the Sigilite might have really been the Emperor, and I believe that Angron might have been one of the smartest of the Primarchs.) This particular possibility is not one I believe. I think there might be some connection, of course. I wouldn't be surprised if the Emperor dabbled in Warp sorcery to enhance his children. (Might be where some of the Chaos taint snuck in...)

Still, interesting notion, that I hadn't really picked up on before. I'll have to go back and reread the Horus Heresy from the beginning and see if I pick up more on this the second time.

How did you not pick that up?

Ingethel and Erebus explicitly state that this is the case, lol.

Answer: Maybe. Neither of the two above are the most trustworthy sources.

No. The Emperor certainly integrated...'something' from the Warp into the Primarchs, but it would have been obtained by his own psychic efforts. So yes, the Primarchs had something from the Warp when they were created, but it wasn't from the Powers of Chaos.

Well, that's my two cents anyway

No. Its all chaos lies.

Isn't the Emperor the 5th Chaos god? Or soon to be.

 Sword Of Caliban wrote:
No. Its all chaos lies.

Is it lies or are the Imperial Truth and the ruling at Nikaea just a means to hide the Emperors dirty secret.

One thing we know from the Emperor is that he will do anything to ensure the safety of the human race, no matter what bargains he reneges on.

Personally I don't think he did and that it is Chaos lies.

To use a quote

All Daemons are falsehood. They are lies, given the shape of creatures by the power of Chaos. Fear the Daemons of Khorne for this reason and then fear them once more. - Inquisitor Covenant

The statement could be true or it could be a formulated one to cover up another truth. When Sanguinius faces Ka'bandha on Signus Prime he says 'we will not lie to you' which is a true in what he reveals. So perhaps Daemons do not lie, but always speak the truth.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


The statement could be true or it could be a formulated one to cover up another truth. When Sanguinius faces Ka'bandha on Signus Prime he says 'we will not lie to you' which is a true in what he reveals. So perhaps Daemons do not lie, but always speak the truth.

Justicar Alaric wrote:
Daemons will only speak truth when they know it will not be believed

Which only further muddles the issue.

It all depends would you believe a daemon's words or not. Being how often they lie I wouldn't believe them at all. Same goes for CSM.

Pretty sure that the 2nd Edition Codex Imperialis said as much.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
In several HH novels [DAEMONS] suggest that he did and failed to produce his end of the bargain. Your thoughts?

There, I fixed it for you. You missed a clearly important part.

 Oakenshield wrote:
Personally, I don't believe the HH writers have made their own consensus on the subject.

Pretty much this.

I don't think he did. But at the same time that doesn't mean that Chaos agrees. Chaos is inscrutable.

I think it's quite clear that the primarchs exist because of a pact with Chaos. It took sorcery to make them and the process is often talked about as unrepeatable. All signs point to Chaos.

But that's hardly controversial. The real question is, why'd he do it? I suspect the whole thing was a distraction.

 Manchu wrote:
I think it's quite clear that the primarchs exist because of a pact with Chaos. It took sorcery to make them

Citation Needed.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Citation Needed.

Tell me about it!

Or perhaps it was not the Emperor but rather one of his scientists.

Maybe even a scientist who later helped to "spirit them away" by placing them in a bunch of space rockets, Superman-style.

Just to offer yet another possibility.

The visitors, sealed in their pristine suits, barely heard the doors move aside to reveal the shadowy world of red and yellow light. The technicians and scientists bowed as their visitors stepped from the lift.
"My Emperor," intoned Dr. Outek.
"Dr. Outek. Phase nineteen is complete?"
The scientist straightened stiffly. "Oh yes," he said, "a pretty baby... very pretty indeed."

Yes, this comes mainly from McNeill's False Gods, and as with most things 40k, it's left open to interpretation.

I think it's meant to be taken metaphorically: I mean, despite having been artificially created the Primarchs are not automatons. They still have a conscience, free will and feelings, a "soul" if you wish, like any other human being.

In the end, the Primarchs are human after all, and as such they can't substract themselves entirely from the influences of Chaos.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:


I think it's meant to be taken metaphorically: I mean, despite having been artificially created the Primarchs are not automatons. They still have a conscience, free will and feelings, a "soul" if you wish, like any other human being.

And what if those two who are missing turned out to be blanks?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
I think it's quite clear that the primarchs exist because of a pact with Chaos. It took sorcery to make them

Citation Needed.

Angel exterminatus... Bam.. Mind blown!!

Jokes aside, fulgrim when he lands on his planet isn't even human shaped, he is a big ball of warp energy.

No
The inquisition has deemed this topic so heretical that it will now destroy the planet, the fact that it is Terra doesn't matter at all.

Formosa wrote:Jokes aside, fulgrim when he lands on his planet isn't even human shaped, he is a big ball of warp energy.

In some sources, at least.
Index Astartes mentions a child lying in the remains of a stasis capsule, whose outer shell was still glowing with heat from orbital entry...

All depends on where you look, and what you believe.

Maybe 'the ball of warp energy' was the warp bubble around the stasis capsule?

My guess is yes. The Emperor has been made more sinister in the HH series, and despite it coming from Daemons it seems to have been developed heavily and makes a degree of sense.

Crimson wrote:Maybe 'the ball of warp energy' was the warp bubble around the stasis capsule?

Huh. I guess that'd be a way to reconcile those descriptions - depending on how the details match up. The IA only mentions a flaming comet, so I'd assume the bubble would not have persisted for long.

It is a clever idea, I give you that. After all, it stands to reason that the pod must've come out of the warp somewhere/somehow - be it due to a miniscule warp engine ... or Chaos space magiks.

Hasn't anyone ever considered the possibility that the Emperor and the Primarchs' physical appearances are just a projection of some sort?

And that their true appearances are something...inhuman?

I'm certain the Emperor used some elements of the warp and sorcery to create the Primarchs but whether he made an outright deal with the Ruinous Powers i cant say.

The Primarchs being warp infused beings is the best explanation for their superhuman feats and abilities however. (Something which some members of this board can't seem to grasp, the Primarchs defy the laws of physics for a reason people, a missile will not turn them into bloody mist).

@Valerian. I've often pondered that the Emperor makes use of a psychic glamour and there are some subtle allusions to it. (Various Primarchs sensing something 'behind'/'more to' the Emperor) and it also provides one interpretation for his physical fallibilities, ie he can be choked by an ork because underneath his psychic chicanery is a normal man. (Though there are also other explanations for that as i've put forward in otherthreads- namely the full story emerging in Heresy Betrayal)

What if the Chaos Gods helped the Emperor create the Primarchs so that they can later corrupt them (knowing full well what the Emprah was to do with them and the Space Marines) so that Chaos can begin waging war against everything? What if this giant thing is all just one big Tzeentch plan

I find it unlikely that a being who spent most of his life trying to exterminate Chaos would turn to them for aid in creating his 'sons' as it were.

On the other hand, I could easily see Big E attempting to cut a deal and then stab them in the back, so who knows.

 Manchu wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Citation Needed.

Tell me about it!

You're the one making the objective claim.