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 Redbeard wrote:
We can be shocked that they changed the basic nature of the army. I mean, Marines aren't suddenly a horde army, regardless of what support units are good or bad in any given codex. Guard don't suddenly become a low-model count elite army. I don't think I've seen the statline of basic models change so drastically in any codex rewrite.

The daemon codex was a redesign of the old codex from the ground up. It no longer fits your paradigm of 'daemons' but it does not make it invalid. Its just the way the codex was changed.

Trying to tell you 'They still seem solid' won't do any good. You have already made up your mind. Your simply unhappy with the changes. That's fine. Your entitled to your own opinion.. You have quite a few nice armies. (I reviewed your links in your sig) If your unhappy enough, go ebay em.

Daemons aren't a horde army. Most of my lists are generally only going to have 70-80 models. My DA/IG has more than that. What they are is a glass hammer. I've put up my initial thoughts on my blog. You can get there thru my sig if you want to.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Daemons aren't a horde army. Most of my lists are generally only going to have 70-80 models. My DA/IG has more than that. What they are is a glass hammer. I've put up my initial thoughts on my blog. You can get there thru my sig if you want to.

They're semi-hordy: cheap enough so that in 2k + game, you can take 120, or even 150 models or them and still have plenty of points left over for other stuff, but they pack enough punch that even why greatly reduced in numbers a unit can still do damage, unlike say boyz or gaunts.

But yes I agree glass hammer is the best way to describe most of the troops, except Plaguebearers of course.

The old Daemons were pretty much a glass hammer before - with the exception of Fatecrusher, so that much has not changed for me.

Instability is a bit worse for CC losses than the 5th edition Fearless (33% more) but it is a bit more balanced and I like that they can go to ground. They also need to fear S8 weapons a bit more, but at least this is an era of Plasma and autocannons and not Missles and Meltas (okay at least a mix of the two!).

I am anxious to see the FAQ on the fiends -5I modifier, I would love it if they actually removed the attacks, but I have a feeling it will be a reduced to 1 not 0 case. Either way, I started with pure Slaanesh Daemons and I think they are much more viable with these changes. That said, I plan to bring Tzeetch for Divination and the expanded use of psykers is exciting.

Glad Soul Grinders left intact, I have liked them even in 5th edition and the modification of Phlegm to Ordinance is actually a nice benefit.

What bothers me most is that you CAN'T take only psychic powers from your patron with demons yet CSM HAVE to take at least one power from their patron.... WTF is that about Mr. Kelly?

I love the daemon players complaining about their army turning into a horde army, when even Space Marines have turned into a horde army.

My DW got torn a new @$$ last night by Mono Slaanesh. They are really quick, loads of attacks and have the best character assassins in the game... Daemonette squad leader with an AP2 weapon going at a stupidly high initiative.

When you're drowned in rending and non rending attacks, 2+ means nothing. The Keeper is the weak link though.

Puscifer wrote:
My DW got torn a new @$$ last night by Mono Slaanesh. They are really quick, loads of attacks and have the best character assassins in the game... Daemonette squad leader with an AP2 weapon going at a stupidly high initiative.

When you're drowned in rending and non rending attacks, 2+ means nothing. The Keeper is the weak link though.

Yeah I don't see the KoS being that useful unless you really get lucky with her gifts/psychic powers. Masque on the other seems specifically built to screw over enemy deathstars.

I don't see the good thing about the Masque.

The range is too short but I can see people ignoring it as it isn't as dangerous as the other Daemonettes or Heralds.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
My DW got torn a new @$$ last night by Mono Slaanesh. They are really quick, loads of attacks and have the best character assassins in the game... Daemonette squad leader with an AP2 weapon going at a stupidly high initiative.

When you're drowned in rending and non rending attacks, 2+ means nothing. The Keeper is the weak link though.

Yeah I don't see the KoS being that useful unless you really get lucky with her gifts/psychic powers. Masque on the other seems specifically built to screw over enemy deathstars.

Good luck keeping the Masque alive as she still can't join units. Which means you need to deepstrike preferrably off an icon. Also she isn't a herald so she takes up an HQ slot all by herself.

KOS is still the cheapest Greater Daemon. It can potentially move 27" (6" normal, d6+3" run with reroll, then 2d6 charge). I would only use Telepathy with him. A slaanesh prince in the HQ would be more expensive but offer more utility.

Daemon prince +wings +2 greater Gifts (1 of these will be swapped for the Lash) +3 Psyker (all Biomancy and hope for Iron Arm). Iron Arm here is key if he gets it then you get nice AA/AV in the form of 2d6 str 8 rending shots at BS5.

I thought the jury was out on rending on shooting with Slaanesh?

Puscifer wrote:
I thought the jury was out on rending on shooting with Slaanesh?

I had a shmooze over the codex today after borrowing it from a buddy, but can't see anything that limits it to CC only, however that's not how the rules work...

The logical stand point is that it is only CC attacks, since if a unit has the rending rule, its CC attacks are rending, however, the weapon must have "rending" for it to benefit from it when shooting. The daemon of slaanesh rules don't confer rending to weapons, only the models.

I wouldn't call that being the jury out, I'd call it plain as day.

D6Damager wrote:
Good luck keeping the Masque alive as she still can't join units. Which means you need to deepstrike preferrably off an icon. Also she isn't a herald so she takes up an HQ slot all by herself.

The Masque has a rerollable 3+ invulnerable. If your opponent wants to focus enough attention on her to kill her, great! The Icon deep strike is probably the way to use her, though; an Icon on a Seeker unit would be perfect.

KOS is still the cheapest Greater Daemon. It can potentially move 27" (6" normal, d6+3" run with reroll, then 2d6 charge). I would only use Telepathy with him. A slaanesh prince in the HQ would be more expensive but offer more utility.

You can't run & charge in the same turn. The KoS also looks best as part of a deep strike approach.

 Janthkin wrote:
The Masque has a rerollable 3+ invulnerable. If your opponent wants to focus enough attention on her to kill her, great!

Where are you seeing that? She used to. But I see nothing in her new rules that indicate her save isn't the standard 5+, and a re-rollable 5+ is just barely better than a 4+. I might be missing it though.

A re-rollable 5+ and 2 wounds aren't enough to justify an ability with a 12" range. I dunno, 75 points for what's effectively a one-use effect denying a single unit firing?

Hmm. You know, I may be guilty of misreading the codex, too. Oops.

It's still a unit that you can precision-drop from Icons, guarantee an effect with, and that your opponent will have to then deal with on top of whatever got her in his face in the first place (likely a big block of Steeds or two). 75 pts? I can probably find a place for her in lists where I don't want to bring a Keeper or a Prince.

That's the really nice thing about this codex, in the context of an edition that includes allies. Everything is cheap enough that you CAN try and squeeze it all in. Plaguebearers (maybe with an Aegis?) for objective camping, Seekers in huge numbers (for relatively few points - I wish Genestealers only cost 12 pts) for mobility & threat radius, Nurgle Soulgrinders and/or CSM allies for anti-air, Beasts of one sort or another for mobile tarpitting (Fiends not so much for tarpits as another fast assault threat; allied Spawn w/MoNurgle for true resilience).

 Redbeard wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

* Play them as a 'counts as' army.

Counts as what? Seriously, what might a daemon model count as?

Fantasy Daemons of Chaos?

D6Damager wrote:

KOS is still the cheapest Greater Daemon. It can potentially move 27" (6" normal, d6+3" run with reroll, then 2d6 charge). I would only use Telepathy with him. A slaanesh prince in the HQ would be more expensive but offer more utility.

You cannot run and charge in this new codex. So, turn 1 charges are still out.

D6Damager wrote:

Daemon prince +wings +2 greater Gifts (1 of these will be swapped for the Lash) +3 Psyker (all Biomancy and hope for Iron Arm). Iron Arm here is key if he gets it then you get nice AA/AV in the form of 2d6 str 8 rending shots at BS5.

yeah, that is a lot of really great stuff for 250+ point model. And, you have to at least roll one power on the Slaanesh tables, so that is only 2 chances at Iron Arm.

My experience when I run flying MCs:

First unit shoots at it, I fail grounding test.
hits ground, loses a wound.
Everything else shoots it to death.
Dead model turn 1.
Make sad face while complaining how much I hate 40k.

 Green is Best! wrote:

D6Damager wrote:

KOS is still the cheapest Greater Daemon. It can potentially move 27" (6" normal, d6+3" run with reroll, then 2d6 charge). I would only use Telepathy with him. A slaanesh prince in the HQ would be more expensive but offer more utility.

You cannot run and charge in this new codex. So, turn 1 charges are still out.

D6Damager wrote:

Daemon prince +wings +2 greater Gifts (1 of these will be swapped for the Lash) +3 Psyker (all Biomancy and hope for Iron Arm). Iron Arm here is key if he gets it then you get nice AA/AV in the form of 2d6 str 8 rending shots at BS5.

yeah, that is a lot of really great stuff for 250+ point model. And, you have to at least roll one power on the Slaanesh tables, so that is only 2 chances at Iron Arm.

My experience when I run flying MCs:

First unit shoots at it, I fail grounding test.
hits ground, loses a wound.
Everything else shoots it to death.
Dead model turn 1.
Make sad face while complaining how much I hate 40k.

DPs don;t have to take their God's powers in Chaos Daemons codex, thats only for CSM.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
You cannot run and charge in this new codex. So, turn 1 charges are still out.

If you go second...



In all honesty I would say put it on the table.I did a bit of proxy hammer with another tournament player yesterday and we both agree the new book is fantastic. I only have one Slaanesh unit (20 Seekers with an icon and Heartseeker joined by a Herald with the exalted reward weapon, exalted locus, steed, and psyker level one), but it more than impressed. Even without rolling the -5I power they still did work, even ripping through a wraith unit. Having a 50% chance to get a bomb psyker power, plus having a character who gets to pick who they challenge is awesome. If you make it into combat without taking loses you have 86 rending WS5 attacks that reroll to hit. Honestly though it hits hard enough that I can afford to (and plan to seeing how this unit actually is just an efficient distraction to keep heat off of my other elements) lose some models. I guess my take is that things are actually not nearly as grim as many say.

Also, fiends are a great distraction unit (that I don't have points for due to other list decisions). Your opponent needs to get rid of them or else they will go to I0 (and the BRB clearly states combat only occurs at I10-I1) and get crushed by your army, but doing so means more seekers will live. It is the perfect predicament. It is actually why I am including screamers in my army. They are not as good as they were, so people don't want to waste time on them, but they are far too dangerous to let live since they are in your backfield (which is where they will be after my turn one).

I will have a full blog on what I tested tomorrow and then a video report up Friday, link in my sig.

 Ozymandias wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

* Play them as a 'counts as' army.

Counts as what? Seriously, what might a daemon model count as?

Fantasy Daemons of Chaos?

I think they're even worse in Fantasy now, but we'll see.

Puscifer wrote:
I thought the jury was out on rending on shooting with Slaanesh?

The BRB wording is clear - Rending characters don't get Rending shooting attacks unless the weapon has it. Army-wide Rending is still nice though!

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

DPs don;t have to take their God's powers in Chaos Daemons codex, thats only for CSM.

Check your shiny new codex again. It says MUST take one of the following in the back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 L'Etat C'Est Moi wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
You cannot run and charge in this new codex. So, turn 1 charges are still out.

If you go second...

If you go second, you are no longer on turn 1......
Let me re-phrase, you are not going on the first turn.
So, first turn charges are still a no go.

Fiends drop enemy I by 5.

Banners drop enemy WS by d3

WS2 hits daemonettes on 5's

 Green is Best! wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

DPs don;t have to take their God's powers in Chaos Daemons codex, thats only for CSM.

Check your shiny new codex again. It says MUST take one of the following in the back.

DPs must take a mark. But you can take 0 of the Daemon psychic powers (which is what we're talking about). Princes are not required to take any powers from Change, Plague, or Excess. And Khorne Princes actually CAN'T take any of those powers.

Sooooo, maybe you should go buy one of our shiny new codices and read it before being rude.

 Red Corsair wrote:
What bothers me most is that you CAN'T take only psychic powers from your patron with demons yet CSM HAVE to take at least one power from their patron.... WTF is that about Mr. Kelly?

That's another new paradigm. You have to roll for psychic powers. Consider a Seer Council for which you have to roll for fortune. If you don't get it, the Seers are pretty much dead. Or nullzone for SM Librarians? Please roll for it. Good luck!

Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Green is Best! wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

DPs don;t have to take their God's powers in Chaos Daemons codex, thats only for CSM.

Check your shiny new codex again. It says MUST take one of the following in the back.

DPs must take a mark. But you can take 0 of the Daemon psychic powers (which is what we're talking about). Princes are not required to take any powers from Change, Plague, or Excess. And Khorne Princes actually CAN'T take any of those powers.

Sooooo, maybe you should go buy one of our shiny new codices and read it before being rude.

Oops, I misread his post. I thought he said they did not have to take a mark.

Must have been the glare off my shiny new codex.