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Tournaments here in the US are all independently supported

 forrestfire wrote:
Reading this, I would like to point out that while you say $700 is a lot for cards, the difference is that when you're done with them, as long as you didn't destroy them through lack of sleeves you can sell them to someone else for generally 80%-100% of their market price.

Also, once you get good enough at the game, it becomes self-sustaining. I have a modern deck that has payed for itself at least once so far in tournament winnings.

Are you talking about a tricked out legacy/vintage type deck or modern/standard magic?

If we're talking legacy/vintage then - yes I agree with you (in part). All or most of those good expensive cards will always be good/expensive. BUT - that isn't really representative of "Normal" FNM -magic. That would be more analogous to someone buying a complete golden-demon painted army for $2000-$3000 - winning a few tournaments with it - keeping it in pristine condition, then reselling it for almost the same amount.

If we're talking 'standard' magic - FNM type magic - then yeah - almost all cards are totally worthless the second they rotate out of block. With just a few chase rares going over $5 or $10. That's similar to the average warhammer player trying to dump old Tac Squads or last edition starter set models. But even things like that - most average used warhammer models tend to bottom out at around 50-40% of retail unless you've done a god-awful construction or paint job.

Warhammer is always going to lose the crown for ongoing $ to win because of the pool of old models you can draw on - not to mention conversions and scratch builds. And once you own the model it's value in army stays more-or-less the same. A tac-marine is always going to be pretty much what it's always been. But trying to stay even slightly competitive in FNM setting means today's hot rare is next week's $0.50 jank.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I think you also have to make allowance for the sheer amount of time the games been running for

that means there's been ages to build up more and more different units/armies/races

Its all very well for a new system to say we can produce an effective competitive army for a lot less than 40K...

but will that be true in 20 years time when loads of new units/rules have been added (and they will be added if they system succceeds and survives)

the only way to avoid this is either to regularly remove units/armies to make way for new ones (and we saw how well that went down with the squats),

or not to produce new units/armies, just regularly reskin the old ones (again i'd doubt that's a real oooption)

games would like a system that doesn't reward extra spending (pay to win),

but on the other hand they really want extra new cool stuff (and cool stuff that has useful rules, most won't buy if the rules are junk)

and those two are, unfortunatly, incompatible desires

To be honest here there is a simple solution to all problems with balance and other stuff that plagues Games Workshop games. They should do what Privateer press do.. update all the armies at the same time.. So instead of getting a new codex, everyone gets a few new models to play around with each year. This means all armies stay UP TO DATE, and NOBODY gets left BEHIND.. and the game stays competetive for ALL YOUR friends not just for them that have a CODEX that works well with the latest rules...

This will never happen however because GW makes it's living trying to force people to build/buy completely new armies ALL the time. They charge more for popular armies. They screw the balance in Favor of the latest models they want to sell etc.. Its a SCAM.. sad thing is that not more people have cought on yet, and continue to buy stuff from them :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Tournaments here in the US are all independently supported

Sounds like crap.. who would want to be a part of that? If the offical rules are broken and suck.. How many house rules do these Tournaments have to have? do they even have the same rules if you go to diffrent types?and How can you even feel any sence of accomplishment taken part in something that you know is not the REAL thing.. to compare it to other types of sports its like you are playing land Hockey in your back yard with your own "special rules", when Magic and Warmachine/hordes player are going away to the offical olympics and playing it for REAL..

Both Warmachine/hordes and Magic have world tournaments that are suported..

 Nucflash wrote:
..and How can you even feel any sence of accomplishment taken part in something that you know is not the REAL thing..

The sense of accomplishment comes from playing some games against other like-minded players. Whether or not some other event down the road has the exact same rules has very little bearing on that.

 Nucflash wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Tournaments here in the US are all independently supported

Sounds like crap.. who would want to be a part of that? If the offical rules are broken and suck.. How many house rules do these Tournaments have to have? do they even have the same rules if you go to diffrent types?and How can you even feel any sence of accomplishment taken part in something that you know is not the REAL thing.. to compare it to other types of sports its like you are playing land Hockey in your back yard with your own "special rules", when Magic and Warmachine/hordes player are going away to the offical olympics and playing it for REAL..

Both Warmachine/hordes and Magic have world tournaments that are suported..

Not the real thing? I'd rather take part in the NoVA Open instead of GW's Throne of Skulls... One tournament pitted you against the entire field of competitors where wins and losses determined your rank amongst EVERYONE... The other tournament pitted you against the rest of the competitors, but you really only cared how your codex did... So if in 3 rounds of this tournament you had a grand total of 3 people playing the Tau Codex, and you go 1W 1 D and 1 L, and the other 2 Tau players both had 0 W or 1 W and 2 L, etc... Then you were the most winningest Tau player... but not the best...

Why on earth would I want to play in a GW sponsored tournament?

Also Warmahordes tournaments are not supported unless you have a large enough crowd or unless you get the Pressganger running things to buy the tournament pack. Malifaux has official tournament rules, but Wyrd doesn't do tournament support again, unless you have a large enough venue...


Edit: Also, Lock and Load's Masters is run by Privateer Press... at an event run by Privateer Press, GW doesn't support tournaments anymore... not even at their own "convention" (Games Day).

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Tournaments here in the US are all independently supported

Sounds like crap.. who would want to be a part of that? If the offical rules are broken and suck.. How many house rules do these Tournaments have to have? do they even have the same rules if you go to diffrent types?and How can you even feel any sence of accomplishment taken part in something that you know is not the REAL thing.. to compare it to other types of sports its like you are playing land Hockey in your back yard with your own "special rules", when Magic and Warmachine/hordes player are going away to the offical olympics and playing it for REAL..

Both Warmachine/hordes and Magic have world tournaments that are suported..

Not the real thing? I'd rather take part in the NoVA Open instead of GW's Throne of Skulls... One tournament pitted you against the entire field of competitors where wins and losses determined your rank amongst EVERYONE... The other tournament pitted you against the rest of the competitors, but you really only cared how your codex did... So if in 3 rounds of this tournament you had a grand total of 3 people playing the Tau Codex, and you go 1W 1 D and 1 L, and the other 2 Tau players both had 0 W or 1 W and 2 L, etc... Then you were the most winningest Tau player... but not the best...

Why on earth would I want to play in a GW sponsored tournament?

Also Warmahordes tournaments are not supported unless you have a large enough crowd or unless you get the Pressganger running things to buy the tournament pack. Malifaux has official tournament rules, but Wyrd doesn't do tournament support again, unless you have a large enough venue...


Edit: Also, Lock and Load's Masters is run by Privateer Press... at an event run by Privateer Press, GW doesn't support tournaments anymore... not even at their own "convention" (Games Day).

I am not talking about sponsored games here, who cares.. I'm talking about a Universal Rules system that is suported by the game designers. So that a World championship can be played. They have this in chess/poker/warmachine/hordes/magic and most other competative games across the globe.. But Games Workshop do not.. and that is a MAYOR FLAW..

But all accept GW has offical rules that are universal. Do you understand the diffrence there? that means if I go to another country and play a game of Warmchine/hordes under the offical Steamroller 2013 rules(they get updated every year). I would play the same rules. This is HUGHE. Same goes for Magic. When you have these Universal RULES.. It gives the players who win these events alot more credibility i hope you understand why? You can also see who is ranked at the top in the World and Why. With alot of diffrent house rules and unsurported Tournaments you dont get this. If I see that you have won X number of tournaments in the US it gives you zero cred in my book. Becuase I have nothing to compare it to. There is no Offical Rules that you all use..

To me you are just a laughing stock if you run competative Unsoported tournaments for any other reason then having some fun and killing time... All other games be they Computer games or Real sports events accross the globe, take great care to have offical rules for their game, that is Universaly used by ALL. everyone accept Games Workshop that is, because lets face it the game is so dam broken that It cant be done...

 Nucflash wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Tournaments here in the US are all independently supported

Sounds like crap.. who would want to be a part of that? If the offical rules are broken and suck.. How many house rules do these Tournaments have to have? do they even have the same rules if you go to diffrent types?and How can you even feel any sence of accomplishment taken part in something that you know is not the REAL thing.. to compare it to other types of sports its like you are playing land Hockey in your back yard with your own "special rules", when Magic and Warmachine/hordes player are going away to the offical olympics and playing it for REAL..

Both Warmachine/hordes and Magic have world tournaments that are suported..

Not the real thing? I'd rather take part in the NoVA Open instead of GW's Throne of Skulls... One tournament pitted you against the entire field of competitors where wins and losses determined your rank amongst EVERYONE... The other tournament pitted you against the rest of the competitors, but you really only cared how your codex did... So if in 3 rounds of this tournament you had a grand total of 3 people playing the Tau Codex, and you go 1W 1 D and 1 L, and the other 2 Tau players both had 0 W or 1 W and 2 L, etc... Then you were the most winningest Tau player... but not the best...

Why on earth would I want to play in a GW sponsored tournament?

Also Warmahordes tournaments are not supported unless you have a large enough crowd or unless you get the Pressganger running things to buy the tournament pack. Malifaux has official tournament rules, but Wyrd doesn't do tournament support again, unless you have a large enough venue...


Edit: Also, Lock and Load's Masters is run by Privateer Press... at an event run by Privateer Press, GW doesn't support tournaments anymore... not even at their own "convention" (Games Day).

But all accept GW has offical rules that are universal. Do you understand the diffrence there? that means if I go to another country and play a game of Warmchine/hordes under the offical Steamroller 2013 rules(they get updated every year). I would play the same rules. This is HUGHE. Same goes for Magic. When you have these Universal RULES.. It gives the players who win these events alot more credibility i hope you understand why? You can also see who is ranked at the top in the World and Why. With alot of diffrent house rules and unsurported Tournaments you dont get this. If I see that you have won X number of tournaments in the US it gives you zero cred in my book. Becuase I have nothing to compare it to. There is no Offical Rules that you all use..

To me you are just a laughing stock if you run competative Unsoported tournaments for any other reason then having some fun and killing time... All other games be they Computer games or Real sports events accross the globe, take great care to have offical rules for their game, that is Universaly used by ALL. everyone accept Games Workshop that is, because lets face it the game is so dam broken that It cant be done...

Official Warhammer 40k Rules for use in Tournament or Casual Play


Your rules are the same no matter where you go. Tournament Organizers make changes to the organization of the tournament, or to have pre-made scenarios so people aren't rolling for them and can get to playing... And as a Malifaux Henchmen, I have access to Gaining Grounds, the official Malifaux Tournament Rules... Guess what, those rules are different than the rules in Official Wyrd Tournament Rules. And I don't even have to use those, it just makes things easier. The same holds true with Warmachine Tournaments... You as the event organizers make changes to fit your play scene... or else you don't get people to play...

 Cryptek of Awesome wrote:

 forrestfire wrote:
Reading this, I would like to point out that while you say $700 is a lot for cards, the difference is that when you're done with them, as long as you didn't destroy them through lack of sleeves you can sell them to someone else for generally 80%-100% of their market price.

Also, once you get good enough at the game, it becomes self-sustaining. I have a modern deck that has payed for itself at least once so far in tournament winnings.

Are you talking about a tricked out legacy/vintage type deck or modern/standard magic?

If we're talking legacy/vintage then - yes I agree with you (in part). All or most of those good expensive cards will always be good/expensive. BUT - that isn't really representative of "Normal" FNM -magic. That would be more analogous to someone buying a complete golden-demon painted army for $2000-$3000 - winning a few tournaments with it - keeping it in pristine condition, then reselling it for almost the same amount.

If we're talking 'standard' magic - FNM type magic - then yeah - almost all cards are totally worthless the second they rotate out of block. With just a few chase rares going over $5 or $10. That's similar to the average warhammer player trying to dump old Tac Squads or last edition starter set models. But even things like that - most average used warhammer models tend to bottom out at around 50-40% of retail unless you've done a god-awful construction or paint job.

Warhammer is always going to lose the crown for ongoing $ to win because of the pool of old models you can draw on - not to mention conversions and scratch builds. And once you own the model it's value in army stays more-or-less the same. A tac-marine is always going to be pretty much what it's always been. But trying to stay even slightly competitive in FNM setting means today's hot rare is next week's $0.50 jank.

In Modern and Legacy, any cards you spend money on around going to stay relatively stable unless they either get banned or reprinted in huge amounts, and even in the second case they don't go down much. Even if they're banned, most cards that are powerful enough to be banned in modern are legacy viable, and so they would keep their value unless they were in a bubble (like Blazing Shoal was, since it shot up for one tournament before it got banned).

In Vintage, there are not enough tournaments to really "go even" on a deck--you're either playing mostly cards from a legacy deck with proxied power, etc, or you're collecting the deck for the reason of having it, not profiting off of it.

For standard? The average deck is $200-300. Your average FNM pays out $30-40 in packs/credit if you win, so you break even after five or six weeks if you're lucky enough to have a store with good payouts. Each standard format rotates after a year, but you don't sell your cards after that, you do it a few months before, when they're still at full price because the bigger tournaments are going on.

I do not see where you're getting the idea that a standard player that wins regularly will not profit off of the game. That should only happen if they make extremely bad business decisions with their cards.

 insaniak wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:
..and How can you even feel any sence of accomplishment taken part in something that you know is not the REAL thing..

The sense of accomplishment comes from playing some games against other like-minded players. Whether or not some other event down the road has the exact same rules has very little bearing on that.

Thanks for a good answer . Playing for fun is good.. I just hope you don't have people at these events who take it to seriously... that would be really sad if you ask me hehe

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Tournaments here in the US are all independently supported

Sounds like crap.. who would want to be a part of that? If the offical rules are broken and suck.. How many house rules do these Tournaments have to have? do they even have the same rules if you go to diffrent types?and How can you even feel any sence of accomplishment taken part in something that you know is not the REAL thing.. to compare it to other types of sports its like you are playing land Hockey in your back yard with your own "special rules", when Magic and Warmachine/hordes player are going away to the offical olympics and playing it for REAL..

Both Warmachine/hordes and Magic have world tournaments that are suported..

Not the real thing? I'd rather take part in the NoVA Open instead of GW's Throne of Skulls... One tournament pitted you against the entire field of competitors where wins and losses determined your rank amongst EVERYONE... The other tournament pitted you against the rest of the competitors, but you really only cared how your codex did... So if in 3 rounds of this tournament you had a grand total of 3 people playing the Tau Codex, and you go 1W 1 D and 1 L, and the other 2 Tau players both had 0 W or 1 W and 2 L, etc... Then you were the most winningest Tau player... but not the best...

Why on earth would I want to play in a GW sponsored tournament?

Also Warmahordes tournaments are not supported unless you have a large enough crowd or unless you get the Pressganger running things to buy the tournament pack. Malifaux has official tournament rules, but Wyrd doesn't do tournament support again, unless you have a large enough venue...


Edit: Also, Lock and Load's Masters is run by Privateer Press... at an event run by Privateer Press, GW doesn't support tournaments anymore... not even at their own "convention" (Games Day).

But all accept GW has offical rules that are universal. Do you understand the diffrence there? that means if I go to another country and play a game of Warmchine/hordes under the offical Steamroller 2013 rules(they get updated every year). I would play the same rules. This is HUGHE. Same goes for Magic. When you have these Universal RULES.. It gives the players who win these events alot more credibility i hope you understand why? You can also see who is ranked at the top in the World and Why. With alot of diffrent house rules and unsurported Tournaments you dont get this. If I see that you have won X number of tournaments in the US it gives you zero cred in my book. Becuase I have nothing to compare it to. There is no Offical Rules that you all use..

To me you are just a laughing stock if you run competative Unsoported tournaments for any other reason then having some fun and killing time... All other games be they Computer games or Real sports events accross the globe, take great care to have offical rules for their game, that is Universaly used by ALL. everyone accept Games Workshop that is, because lets face it the game is so dam broken that It cant be done...

Official Warhammer 40k Rules for use in Tournament or Casual Play

Spoiler:

Your rules are the same no matter where you go. Tournament Organizers make changes to the organization of the tournament, or to have pre-made scenarios so people aren't rolling for them and can get to playing... And as a Malifaux Henchmen, I have access to Gaining Grounds, the official Malifaux Tournament Rules... Guess what, those rules are different than the rules in Official Wyrd Tournament Rules. And I don't even have to use those, it just makes things easier. The same holds true with Warmachine Tournaments... You as the event organizers make changes to fit your play scene... or else you don't get people to play...

HAHA.. I see that I'm getting nowhere with you. So you are telling me that all your Unoffical Tournaments in the US. USE the Core rules with no "house rules". You read all the rules as written by games workshop? all list building is exacly the same with no acceptions? I can come and use the chessiest broken gak I can find in the Offical rules and everyone is okey with it? as long as i stay on Points.. Man I really would not like to play WH40k/fantasy Tournament in a setting like that. The system has so many "rules Lawyer" loopholes that it would make for a really nice mess...

You do understand that other gaming system has an official, set of Scenarios, and sets limitations on list buildings etc. For warmachine/hordes its called steamroller 2013 and can be downloaded seperatly from the main rules... This is done in many other games also like poker, chess and Magic. This is to add a level of professionalism to competative gaming... But hey whatever floats your boat my friend haha

 forrestfire wrote:

For standard? The average deck is $200-300. Your average FNM pays out $30-40 in packs/credit if you win, so you break even after five or six weeks if you're lucky enough to have a store with good payouts. Each standard format rotates after a year, but you don't sell your cards after that, you do it a few months before, when they're still at full price because the bigger tournaments are going on.

I do not see where you're getting the idea that a standard player that wins regularly will not profit off of the game. That should only happen if they make extremely bad business decisions with their cards.

So you're saying you will profit if you always/almost always win and sell your stuff early while you're still having fun with it.

The point is - that this doesn't really describe the average person's gaming experience. If one person or a few select people are wining the FNM prizes - by definition - everyone else is losing. Sure a small % of people are going to win all the prizes, make awesome trades with noobs/kids and sell everything for max price at the height of the set's popularity. Just like a small % of people can buy a used warhammer model at a garage sale, clean it up, convert it, paint it like a boss, and sell it for 20-50 times what they paid for it. But I mean - these are ridiculous examples.

I bought someone's entire collection off of Craigslist for $100 - books, Empire army, & some Space wolves. I sold the books and wolves for $110. I'm not about to tell a new player "Hey you should start Warhammer, you can get an army for -$10!" That's obviously ridiculous and I've never seen a deal come along that was quite that good again.

Steamroller has no restrictions on what list you can run. Its only a scenerio packet with tournament rules attached.


And yes, over here in the US we play Warhammer or Warhammer 40k. Not "SomethingarandomTOdecidedtherulesshouldbelikehammer"

 Nucflash wrote:


HAHA.. I see that I'm getting nowhere with you. So you are telling me that all your Unoffical Tournaments in the US. USE the Core rules with no "house rules". You read all the rules as written by games workshop? all list building is exacly the same with no acceptions? I can come and use the chessiest broken gak I can find in the Offical rules and everyone is okey with it? as long as i stay on Points.. Man I really would not like to play WH40k/fantasy Tournament in a setting like that. The system has so many "rules Lawyer" loopholes that it would make for a really nice mess...

You do understand that other gaming system has an official, set of Scenarios, and sets limitations on list buildings etc. For warmachine/hordes its called steamroller 2013 and can be downloaded seperatly from the main rules... This is done in many other games also like poker, chess and Magic. This is to add a level of professionalism to competative gaming... But hey whatever floats your boat my friend haha

Actually, yes. Most tournaments play by the books, with the occasional FAQ to explain some interactions that have not been covered by the official ones. If you normally play in a place where people take issue with you running a list made to win in a setting where the objective is to win, I kinda feel bad for you.

 Cryptek of Awesome wrote:

 forrestfire wrote:

For standard? The average deck is $200-300. Your average FNM pays out $30-40 in packs/credit if you win, so you break even after five or six weeks if you're lucky enough to have a store with good payouts. Each standard format rotates after a year, but you don't sell your cards after that, you do it a few months before, when they're still at full price because the bigger tournaments are going on.

I do not see where you're getting the idea that a standard player that wins regularly will not profit off of the game. That should only happen if they make extremely bad business decisions with their cards.

So you're saying you will profit if you always/almost always win and sell your stuff early while you're still having fun with it.

The point is - that this doesn't really describe the average person's gaming experience. If one person or a few select people are wining the FNM prizes - by definition - everyone else is losing. Sure a small % of people are going to win all the prizes, make awesome trades with noobs/kids and sell everything for max price at the height of the set's popularity. Just like a small % of people can buy a used warhammer model at a garage sale, clean it up, convert it, paint it like a boss, and sell it for 20-50 times what they paid for it. But I mean - these are ridiculous examples.

I bought someone's entire collection off of Craigslist for $100 - books, Empire army, & some Space wolves. I sold the books and wolves for $110. I'm not about to tell a new player "Hey you should start Warhammer, you can get an army for -$10!" That's obviously ridiculous and I've never seen a deal come along that was quite that good again.

To each his own, I guess. For me and many other players, playing the best you can without breaking the bank is part of the fun, and you don't have to use a $200-300 deck to win FNMs, cheaper decks will do just fine if you are good enough. But then, I don't play at a store that shafts its players with crappy prize support--it's distributed fairly evenly based on ranking.

In fact, one of the regulars at my FLGS (definitely a much better player than me) took some event decks to FNM and played them unmodified and still top 8'd.

I think my point is that it's much easier to minimize costs in magic than it is in 40k. I can think of at least ten players at my hometown FLGS alone that profit off the game, but I can't think of one person who has won enough in 40k tournaments to earn back the cost of his army. It's a fundamentally different hobby, and even the players who buy waste (at least in my opinion) money on booster boxes still enjoy it and still have a good chance of being able to offload what they don't want from the boxes for a good amount of money (more like 40-50% of the cost of the box, though).

 Grey Templar wrote:
Steamroller has no restrictions on what list you can run. Its only a scenerio packet with tournament rules attached.

Technically, it does, as IIRC character restrictions are standard for Steamroller these days. Of course, since Warmachine doesn't have the glaring balance issues that 40k/WHFB have, it doesn't need a list of models that you can't field...

Actually, yes. Most tournaments play by the books, with the occasional FAQ to explain some interactions that have not been covered by the official ones. If you normally play in a place where people take issue with you running a list made to win in a setting where the objective is to win, I kinda feel bad for you. That must suck to not be able to play your best game.

They're called comp scores.

You missed several key points of my posts:

1) I don't play 40k, you'd know that if you read several of my posts in this thread especially the ones between rigfeld2 and myself.

2) I know what Steamrollers are, but nothing is stopping a Pressganger from running a tournament that doesn't use Steamrollers, just like there is nothing stopping me (a Henchman for Wyrd Miniatures) from not using Gaining Grounds, which are the official tournament rules for Malifaux Tournaments, but Wyrd also has a different ruleset for their official tournaments that Wyrd Employees themselves run. GW USED to host their own tournaments, they called them 'Ard Boyz and and Throne of Skulls... They stopped it because they don't feel like supporting tournaments... The Independent Tournament scene here in America is far better than the "official" ones put on by GW.

3) No company says, "if you run a tournament, you must use our official tournament rules."

4) EVERY game has FAQs, Errata, and Clarifications, if you don't play with those, then your version of a Steamroller is different than mine if I run Steamrollers with all of the FAQs, Errata, and Clarifications.

 forrestfire wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:


HAHA.. I see that I'm getting nowhere with you. So you are telling me that all your Unoffical Tournaments in the US. USE the Core rules with no "house rules". You read all the rules as written by games workshop? all list building is exacly the same with no acceptions? I can come and use the chessiest broken gak I can find in the Offical rules and everyone is okey with it? as long as i stay on Points.. Man I really would not like to play WH40k/fantasy Tournament in a setting like that. The system has so many "rules Lawyer" loopholes that it would make for a really nice mess...

You do understand that other gaming system has an official, set of Scenarios, and sets limitations on list buildings etc. For warmachine/hordes its called steamroller 2013 and can be downloaded seperatly from the main rules... This is done in many other games also like poker, chess and Magic. This is to add a level of professionalism to competative gaming... But hey whatever floats your boat my friend haha

Actually, yes. Most tournaments play by the books, with the occasional FAQ to explain some interactions that have not been covered by the official ones. If you normally play in a place where people take issue with you running a list made to win in a setting where the objective is to win, I kinda feel bad for you.

The Facts are that you can run really messed up stuff that has zero balance. So running full blown Cheese, and trying to exploit everything just comes natural for me. I have found that warhammer 40k and fantasy is not the best system to let someone with my mindset just run free. I care Zero for lore or "fluff" and will use whatever thing that gives me the most edge. I think there are more people out there like me. I do understand that the US scene is diffrent then the European. Just watch chees hunters from Beast of War and you understand what I mean. The gaming group i play with have long since broken the Games Workshops rules to the point that it is no longer playabal...

 forrestfire wrote:
To each his own, I guess. For me and many other players, playing the best you can without breaking the bank is part of the fun, and you don't have to use a $200-300 deck to win FNMs, cheaper decks will do just fine if you are good enough. But then, I don't play at a store that shafts its players with crappy prize support--it's distributed fairly evenly based on ranking.

The flaw in the argument is that when you say 'if you win, you can break even' implies that the person you are advising to play based on this has to always win to meet that expectation. You say it's part of the fun trying to do this - sure, it might be. But it's also not reliably done, because, well, you might just lose, since only one person is the winner.

 -Loki- wrote:

 forrestfire wrote:
To each his own, I guess. For me and many other players, playing the best you can without breaking the bank is part of the fun, and you don't have to use a $200-300 deck to win FNMs, cheaper decks will do just fine if you are good enough. But then, I don't play at a store that shafts its players with crappy prize support--it's distributed fairly evenly based on ranking.

The flaw in the argument is that when you say 'if you win, you can break even' implies that the person you are advising to play based on this has to always win to meet that expectation. You say it's part of the fun trying to do this - sure, it might be. But it's also not reliably done, because, well, you might just lose, since only one person is the winner.

This is true, but my whole argument is based on the caveat that you are good enough to consistently win. Players who do not have a strong enough deck, or are not good enough players should be discounted from the people who have a chance of "going infinite" and financing their hobby entirely off of the startup cost.

Even if you lose half of your tournaments, or even most of them, there are a good 40 or so weeks that with tournaments in a year, if we discount the time where you'd want to dump the standard staples. If you have a $200 deck, and tournament payout (when you sell or trade a pack you won) is $30 for first, $20 for second, $12 for third, and $8 for fourth through eighth, you could simply play above-average and top 8 in a bit over half of the tournaments you play in and you would break even.

It all depends on the decks being played and the local meta, though. For instance, if one plays at a store with mostly more casual decks being played, and brings a tuned tournament deck, it is very easy to profit off of tournaments, whereas if you have a field with 20-30 regulars all with tier 1 decks, it is much more difficult.

In any case, I feel like I've kept this tangent going for a bit too long, because the answer to the original topic of the thread is "yes, Magic the Gathering is a game that rewards additional money spent."

It's definitely comparable or more expensive than 40k, unless you are one of the aforementioned tournament-winning players.

 Alfndrate wrote:
You missed several key points of my posts:

1) I don't play 40k, you'd know that if you read several of my posts in this thread especially the ones between rigfeld2 and myself.

Shush you GW lovin' white knight! j/k

As for people talking about sunk costs. Last time I checked, the 4th Ed OnG figures I bought back in the early 90's can still be good in a game. Yes I needed to add to that army to keep it viable. On the other hand, the two 20 gallon totes of L5R cards I got from collecting for 10 years, getting ready to sort through them and throw most of them out because they are worthless. I shudder to think how much that was all worth retail. And that is a game that is still going. Have another one of Vampire:TCG. That one is dead as a doornail. Can't get new players into the game because there aren't decks they can buy.

As for the people who were complaining about not always being able to have enough of the options in a unit, what happened using some green stuff, some tubing, and plastic card? If there has been any game that is friendly to conversions and alternative models, it is the GW games. People complaining about having to buy Chaos Spawn?!? I have never seen a person buy a chaos spawn model, they have all been conversions. The spawn is the definition of a conversion friendly model. No imagination in kids these days.

 forrestfire wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 forrestfire wrote:
To each his own, I guess. For me and many other players, playing the best you can without breaking the bank is part of the fun, and you don't have to use a $200-300 deck to win FNMs, cheaper decks will do just fine if you are good enough. But then, I don't play at a store that shafts its players with crappy prize support--it's distributed fairly evenly based on ranking.

The flaw in the argument is that when you say 'if you win, you can break even' implies that the person you are advising to play based on this has to always win to meet that expectation. You say it's part of the fun trying to do this - sure, it might be. But it's also not reliably done, because, well, you might just lose, since only one person is the winner.

This is true, but my whole argument is based on the caveat that you are good enough to consistently win. Players who do not have a strong enough deck, or are not good enough players should be discounted from the people who have a chance of "going infinite" and financing their hobby entirely off of the startup cost.

Even if you lose half of your tournaments, or even most of them, there are a good 40 or so weeks that with tournaments in a year, if we discount the time where you'd want to dump the standard staples. If you have a $200 deck, and tournament payout (when you sell or trade a pack you won) is $30 for first, $20 for second, $12 for third, and $8 for fourth through eighth, you could simply play above-average and top 8 in a bit over half of the tournaments you play in and you would break even.

It all depends on the decks being played and the local meta, though. For instance, if one plays at a store with mostly more casual decks being played, and brings a tuned tournament deck, it is very easy to profit off of tournaments, whereas if you have a field with 20-30 regulars all with tier 1 decks, it is much more difficult.

In any case, I feel like I've kept this tangent going for a bit too long, because the answer to the original topic of the thread is "yes, Magic the Gathering is a game that rewards additional money spent."

It's definitely comparable or more expensive than 40k, unless you are one of the aforementioned tournament-winning players.

The thing is, when GW used to run 'Ard Boyz, you could use your logic and say playing 40k was free, because if you won 'Ard Boyz every year, you got a free army. Sure, the margin for losing was wider, but the chance was there.

It also is based on people playing at their FLGS. When my brother and friends played Magic, we only play at our houses. For someone who plans on doing that, the chance to play 'for free' just isn't there.

It's something you can aim for, but it's not something you can recommend the game on, because it's just not going to happen for the vast majority of people playing the game.

Point taken.

 -Loki- wrote:
When my brother and friends played Magic, we only play at our houses. For someone who plans on doing that, the chance to play 'for free' just isn't there.

But at the same time the "spend $lots per month or fall behind and never win anymore" problem doesn't exist if you're just playing kitchen table games with a few friends. You only have to keep investing constantly in the latest cards if you're playing in tournaments. And if you're playing competitively it's fair to assume that you'll win sometimes, and you'll be smart with your trading and be able to recover a decent percentage of the purchase price of your cards when it's time to replace them.

Also, there are two other factors here:

1) Time is money. Total cost to get a MTG deck? $X, and five minutes putting it in sleeves once the cards arrive. Total cost to build a 40k army when the new codex comes out? $Y, and weeks/months of work. The financial cost per year for 40k might be slightly less, but only at the cost of a huge increase in the amount of time you have to spend on building the playing pieces.

2) The most expensive MTG cards tend to increase in value. So sure, you have to buy a set of four copies of a $20 card for a competitive deck. Get it early (because you're a competitive player and keep up with all the trends in what is powerful) for $20 and you can often sell it for $30 when it's time to switch decks. In the most extreme cases I have cards that I bought years ago for $10-20 that are now worth ten times that and will only continue to increase in price. Compare that to 40k where the value of your models drops by half as soon as you take them out of the box and down to almost nothing if you assemble and paint them.

 Peregrine wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
When my brother and friends played Magic, we only play at our houses. For someone who plans on doing that, the chance to play 'for free' just isn't there.

But at the same time the "spend $lots per month or fall behind and never win anymore" problem doesn't exist if you're just playing kitchen table games with a few friends. You only have to keep investing constantly in the latest cards if you're playing in tournaments.

You'd think so, but when my brother was buying full display boxes of cards every other week, and his friend was buying a lot as well, being the only two in the group then with full time jobs and lots of disposable income, they were definitely ahead on the power curve. Kitchen table games can get just as competitive as tournament games.

Yeah, but building and painting the army to get it ready to play is part of the fun in and of itself. Heck, there are people that don't play at all and still have fun painting the miniatures.

40k has more intangible benifits than Magic. Magic just gets you playing the game and making various decks. 40k has both playing the game, list building, model assembly, painting, personalization of your army, fluff writing, etc... And you will always be able to use your models for something. A marine with a meltagun will always be useful, a specific magic card not so much.

 -Loki- wrote:
You'd think so, but when my brother was buying full display boxes of cards every other week, and his friend was buying a lot as well, being the only two in the group then with full time jobs and lots of disposable income, they were definitely ahead on the power curve. Kitchen table games can get just as competitive as tournament games.

But how is that any different from 40k? If you're on a limited budget and your friends all buy a few Vendettas/Helldrakes/etc you're going to be just as far behind.

Eilif wrote:
When you buy a warhammer 40k kit, very often there are options that are in the rules that can't be achieved without purchasing of additional bits, or kits.
It seems to me that the player who is willing to drop the $ on the extra bits or kits is often going to be a -sometimes severe- advantage over the player who is not.

Compare this to a game like Warmachine which is not really much less expensive (not the point of this thread) but doesn't have the kind of menu of options that a 40k model has. Everyone who buys that kit has the same options. The same seeming to be true for Infinity.

It seems that 40k is fairly unique this incentivising of the purchase of additional bits beyond the purchase of the unit itself. I realize that there are many generic games (many of which I play where the options are even wider) but -among games that sell their own miniatures- are there other games that do the same or is this mostly a 40k thing?
Somewhat of a tangent.
There have always been some GW copycats, but It is somewhat ironic that as GW produces both the models and rules, it is really their own actions which have created the recent (last 10 years) market for the 3rd party bits producers which in many cases have expanded into ranges of GW-compatible complete models.

Lawyers Guns and Money.

My favourite graph in our internal reporting shows the sales in each country going as far back as we have records. 1988, I believe. The really great part about it is that it has over 20 years of data. You can see proper trends over 20 years, and if your intention is to build a business that lasts, which mine always has been, then ‘long term’ means decades.
What does the graph show? It shows our rapid increase of sales in the 90s when we opened a lot of stores in the UK and a lot of businesses around the world. The UK line then shows a period of consolidation as that growth demanded we sort out our manufacturing and warehousing. Then we enter a short surge due to our intoxicating Lord of the Rings tie-in (everywhere except the US, interestingly enough) followed by a long hangover in Europe and a shorter one in the UK. Recently we have been flat and very recently trending upwards again.
Looking closely at the trend lines reveals interesting strategic information. The gradient of the US growth changed dramatically when we switched from using distributors to going direct to retailers; if you are considering such a move, do not hesitate. It is impossible to see where various electronic games devices were released, or the effect they have had on our sales. Each of these devices supposedly heralded the end for our antiquated miniatures - oh ye of little faith.
Underneath the main country based sales are the exciting slow but steady growth lines of Forge World and Black Library. And just recently the graph has been enhanced by the appearance of a red line at the bottom. I use fairly crude (and so, memorable) colour association for the lines. Red is China.
Why is this so interesting? First, it shows that even as we are very intent on the future growth of the business so we are constantly looking at our record to learn what not to do, and what to do again. Second, it gives perspective to our view that short-term issues are short-term. Third, it underlines what I said earlier: when we say we are a long-term business we mean it. We cannot guarantee to be around in 50 years time, but we certainly intend to be.
Short-termism is one of the evils of modern society. More shareholder value is destroyed by managers making dumb short-term decisions to enable them to produce glowing quarterly reports than ever is gained in the laughably inappropriately named ‘transparency‘ they are supposed to bring.
If you would like more transparency on Games Workshop, come to our annual general meeting. You will see our facilities, and maybe be quite surprised by how interesting they are. You will get to meet all the people who do the important things and talk to them about their jobs. You will also get, if such is your desire, a foaming pint of Bugman’s best in our famous bar. No, shareholders do not get a discount on beer. We don’t do discounts, not even for you.Tom Kirby
Chairman
30 July 2012

I/E Buy those bits even if if you can't afford them.

 Nucflash wrote:

 forrestfire wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:


HAHA.. I see that I'm getting nowhere with you. So you are telling me that all your Unoffical Tournaments in the US. USE the Core rules with no "house rules". You read all the rules as written by games workshop? all list building is exacly the same with no acceptions? I can come and use the chessiest broken gak I can find in the Offical rules and everyone is okey with it? as long as i stay on Points.. Man I really would not like to play WH40k/fantasy Tournament in a setting like that. The system has so many "rules Lawyer" loopholes that it would make for a really nice mess...

You do understand that other gaming system has an official, set of Scenarios, and sets limitations on list buildings etc. For warmachine/hordes its called steamroller 2013 and can be downloaded seperatly from the main rules... This is done in many other games also like poker, chess and Magic. This is to add a level of professionalism to competative gaming... But hey whatever floats your boat my friend haha

Actually, yes. Most tournaments play by the books, with the occasional FAQ to explain some interactions that have not been covered by the official ones. If you normally play in a place where people take issue with you running a list made to win in a setting where the objective is to win, I kinda feel bad for you.

The Facts are that you can run really messed up stuff that has zero balance. So running full blown Cheese, and trying to exploit everything just comes natural for me. I have found that warhammer 40k and fantasy is not the best system to let someone with my mindset just run free. I care Zero for lore or "fluff" and will use whatever thing that gives me the most edge. I think there are more people out there like me. I do understand that the US scene is diffrent then the European. Just watch chees hunters from Beast of War and you understand what I mean. The gaming group i play with have long since broken the Games Workshops rules to the point that it is no longer playabal...

Good to see you're still the jack wagon you were before.

You have not "broken the rules to the point they're not playable". While it sounds like you may be a Cheesy-Spam player, I promise you haven't "broken" the game. If there was a single list that "broke" the game then we'd see the same list winning every tournament. We aren't.

You're simply foolish. I'd love to be more colorful in how I detail my opinion of you, but ill refrain for fear of the ban hammer.

So ill put it plainly: quit trolling.

 Peregrine wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
You'd think so, but when my brother was buying full display boxes of cards every other week, and his friend was buying a lot as well, being the only two in the group then with full time jobs and lots of disposable income, they were definitely ahead on the power curve. Kitchen table games can get just as competitive as tournament games.

But how is that any different from 40k? If you're on a limited budget and your friends all buy a few Vendettas/Helldrakes/etc you're going to be just as far behind.

I'm not saying it's not. I was merely pointing out that saying Magic essentially pays for itself because you can win cards at FNM and other tournaments to resell is disengenuous, because it's simply going to only apply to a very, very select portion of the playerbase, just like winning Ard Boyz essentially made playing 40k free for those that managed to win it multiple times.

My comment about playing at home being competitive was due to you saying it's not as competitive at home, when I made the comment that if you are one of those players the incentive of Magic paying for itself is just not going to happen. A completely different tangent.

There is nothing requiring you to buy the official GW kit, other than a dandified GW employee that insists 100% of the plastic and paint used in your army needs to have come off GW's production line in the past 12 months.....

i exaggerate, of course, but while you have to be sneaky about getting say, weapons from third parties, you can do what GW now is turning into a taboo, which is use your creativity. Given the right plasticard and an hour, you could probably knock out about 5 plasma guns in the space of an hour (measuring, drawing, cutting, filing and gluing)... in fact probably 5 of any special or heavy weapon in the space of an hour (except, perhaps, if it is eldar, in which case you may be hooped, as sculpting is quite a bit harder....) Heck. If you are really good and sneaky, you can buy a squad of tactical marines and, assuming you have enough torso-components left over from other kits (like say the tank gunners...) and mixing and matching with bionics, you could come out with 16? marines from one tactical squad.

Really, it just comes down to an individual philosophy, do you like having stock or do you like getting mileage out of your purchase? I waffle between both, usually because I buy most of my stuff second hand and need to salvage it into usable condition. I've had to fill many gaps in my arsenal by building the gear out of parts, or creating a counts-as analogue in the case of the horrendously damaged space marine bikes i bought...

Since GW doesn't sponsor any tournaments, they have no way of enforcing you use their models in games that arn't in a GW store. And every tournament I have been to allows alternate models. They just have to be WYSIWYG.