Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This is related in some sense to the Staff of Tomorrow reroll question.

Warlord trait rule for reference:

Lord of Unreality: Whilst the Warlord is alive, you can reroll results on the Warp Storm table.

Say I'm playing a Fateweaver list, and my opponent has [insert other Daemon list] fielded, can I reroll their Warp Table results? RAW, there's nothing that refers specifically to your turn, and thus the argument comes around again to whether you can reroll an opponent's die (which I am of the opinion that you can).

Furthermore (and there is verbiage in this case to make a clearer RAW argument), can you use instruments to reroll the D6 damage check for friendly units during your opponent's turn?

... If, you roll [God Specific Result] you may reroll a single dice roll to determine if a unit is hit or not for each friendly Daemon of [Hated God] model with an Instrument of Chaos currently on the table.

Since you didn't make the roll, your instruments don't work on enemy storm damage rolls. Also, you can't reroll your opponents dice with fateweaver either with the storm or his staff, you can reroll only your dice. There is multiple precedence where abilities that say "all x gets y" means your army only. It's the same here. If you didn't make the roll, you can't reroll it, nor can a reroll you get be transferred to make your opponent reroll.

RAW, it's pretty clear that, at least with his staff, you may reroll any D6. However, this is a discussion that is happening in another thread, and not the question I originally posed.

The lack of the term "your" in the LoR trait leads me to believe that you may reroll any Warp Storm results. RAI, perhaps it is designed only for your own Warp Storm rolls, but RAW, it only says "...reroll results on the Warp Storm table." This specifically does not include phrases like "during your turn" or "your results."
The Instrument rule does include such verbiage: "...If, you roll [God Specific Result] you may reroll..." This leads me to believe that Fateweaver would be able to reroll any Warp Storm result.

Yes, by the strict wording you can reroll ANY roll on the Warp Storm table. Friendly or enemy.

I believe this may have been intentional.

I mean, if 2 daemon armies are fighting each other and one can control the flow of the warp around the area and the other cannot its going to be an advantage.

No, as you didnt roll the dice in the first place, yoyu cannot reroll it. You would simply be rolling it, which sint allowed.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, by the strict wording you can reroll ANY roll on the Warp Storm table. Friendly or enemy.

I believe this may have been intentional.

I mean, if 2 daemon armies are fighting each other and one can control the flow of the warp around the area and the other cannot its going to be an advantage.

This.

The entire idea of Fateweaver is that he can alter almost any aspect of reality, i.e. even your opponents rolls

 Crackgnome wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, by the strict wording you can reroll ANY roll on the Warp Storm table. Friendly or enemy.

I believe this may have been intentional.

I mean, if 2 daemon armies are fighting each other and one can control the flow of the warp around the area and the other cannot its going to be an advantage.

This.

Is not correct...

You have the emphasis on the wrong syllable.

YOU can reroll any roll on the Warp Storm table.

If YOU did not make the initial roll, there is nothing for you to re-roll.

Where specifically does it say that you cannot reroll an opponent's roll?

Language. You didnt roll it, YOU never rolled anything, so you can hardly redo something you never "did" in the first place

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Language. You didnt roll it, YOU never rolled anything, so you can hardly redo something you never "did" in the first place

This.

The English language is tricky sometimes, but here it is saying that you get to re-roll. If you did not roll a die, there is nothing for you to re-roll.

The dice have been rolled, they can be rerolled.
Someone can check something, and you can recheck for them. The prefix re- does not exclude the possibility that multiple entities can act on an object in an identical manner, in sequence.

 Crackgnome wrote:
Where specifically does it say that you cannot reroll an opponent's roll?

The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.

It doesn't say I can't is not valid.

The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Crackgnome wrote:
Where specifically does it say that you cannot reroll an opponent's roll?

The rules system is permissive: this means you may only do things you are expressly allowed to do or that the rules imply you can do. You are not allowed to do anything else.

It doesn't say I can't is not valid.

The rules don't say I can't place my models back on the board after you've killed them and use them next turn, but that doesn't mean I can do it.

While this is true, there are rules that cover rerolling, as follows:

Re-roll: In some situations, the rules allow you to pick up and re-roll a dice. This is exactly what it sounds like -- pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll it again. The second roll counts, even if it means a worse result than the first, and no single dice can be re-rolled more than once, regardless of the source of the roll.

'
Nowhere is ownership of the dice implied, nor does it say the original roller must be the re-roller. Dice have been rolled, a rule allows you to reroll them, you pick them up and do so. This is not a situation of "it doesn't say I can't," as the re-roll rule specifically states that it can be done.

You seem to misunderstand the permissive ruleset.
Where is the permission for it to be an opponents dice? You have permission to roll your own dice not your opponents.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
You seem to misunderstand the permissive ruleset.
Where is the permission for it to be an opponents dice? You have permission to roll your own dice not your opponents.

Re-roll: In some situations, the rules allow you to pick up and re-roll a dice.

A dice. Not your dice, not their dice, a dice. The choice of the dice is limited by the rules allowing for a re-roll (i.e. preferred enemy only applies to attacks made by the unit with the rule), and in this case, the choice limitation is "results on the Warp Storm table" not "your results on the Warp Storm table" or "opponents results on the Warp Storm table."

YOU pick it up, and roll it again. The subject is "you", meaning the subjhect throughout is you.

Context is king

nosferatu1001 wrote:
YOU pick it up, and roll it again. The subject is "you", meaning the subjhect throughout is you.

Context is king

You pick up "a dice". You do not explicitly pick up "a dice you previously rolled."

Then why did the have to run some FAQ's on Corbulo's dice of choice?

" pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll it again." is predicated on you rolling the dice in the first place, this disallows you re-rolling a dice you did not initially roll.

The Engilsh Langue tells us this is true.

The model doesn't exist yet while you're rolling for deployment/mission. This is a different situation entirely.
His rule also reads: "Corbulo allows you a single re-roll once per game. This can be any roll you have made..."
This implies that without the phrase "roll you have made," a re-roll can apply to any dice within the context of the rule. No this doesn't mean you can re-roll you opponent's to hit rolls if you have preferred enemy, because preferred enemy affects only the rolls made in the context of the model that has PE.
Fateweaver's rule simply states "...you can reroll results on the Warp Storm table."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
" pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll it again." is predicated on you rolling the dice in the first place, this disallows you re-rolling a dice you did not initially roll.

The Engilsh Langue tells us this is true.

 Crackgnome wrote:
The dice have been rolled, they can be rerolled.
Someone can check something, and you can recheck for them. The prefix re- does not exclude the possibility that multiple entities can act on an object in an identical manner, in sequence.

How do you roll something again if you did not roll it in the first place. Logically you have no basis for your argument, and it goes against the established rules for the English language.

As above. You are not only ignoring the context of the rule in question, you are ignoring the very basic language the game is constructed in, all in an Easter Egg hunt

 DeathReaper wrote:
How do you roll something again if you did not roll it in the first place. Logically you have no basis for your argument, and it goes against the established rules for the English language.

If Fred flips my car, I can flip it again (without having flipped it in the first place).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
How do you roll something again if you did not roll it in the first place. Logically you have no basis for your argument, and it goes against the established rules for the English language.

If Fred flips my car, I can flip it again (without having flipped it in the first place).

You can flip it again, but you would not be re flipping it, as you did not flip it in the first place.

 DeathReaper wrote:
" pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll it again." is predicated on you rolling the dice in the first place, this disallows you re-rolling a dice you did not initially roll.

The Engilsh Langue tells us this is true.

What are you, an English teacher? Simply speaking the language does not make you an expert. (Listen to "rap" sometime.)

"Frank rolled the bocce ball down the field. Neither of us liked the end position, so I re-rolled the ball."

This is a sensible, correct use of the compound word "re-roll." It is not predicated on "me" rolling the ball in the first place. If something has been rolled (by someone), it can be re-rolled (by anyone).

Define:

Roll - move or cause to move by turning over.

Re - repetition of an action

Re-roll - repeating the action of a die turning over

I'm not seeing where re must repeat the possessive action, just the action.

A die is rolled (doesn't matter by whom). That die is re-rolled. Re applies to the action of rolling. Anyone who infers that re must apply to the possessive OR the subject is adding language that isn't clearly there. Without stating who is allowed to re-roll or stating that you are rerolling the die OR the result you are drawing an inference without complete context.

In other words there is missing information and you can all argue until you are blue in the face.

the emphasis being on you re-rolling, instead of just the process of re-rolling.

Do not ignore the context of the sentence.

Elric Greywolf wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
" pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll it again." is predicated on you rolling the dice in the first place, this disallows you re-rolling a dice you did not initially roll.

The Engilsh Langue tells us this is true.

What are you, an English teacher? Simply speaking the language does not make you an expert. (Listen to "rap" sometime.)

"Frank rolled the bocce ball down the field. Neither of us liked the end position, so I re-rolled the ball."

This is a sensible, correct use of the compound word "re-roll." It is not predicated on "me" rolling the ball in the first place. If something has been rolled (by someone), it can be re-rolled (by anyone).

This exactly. The origin of an action does not have to be the perpetrator of a reenactment of the original action to use the prefix re-.

 punchdub wrote:

In other words there is missing information and you can all argue until you are blue in the face.

Also this <.<

Elric - again, stop ignoring context. It is important when parsing rules

 DeathReaper wrote:
the emphasis being on you re-rolling, instead of just the process of re-rolling.

Do not ignore the context of the sentence.

I'll write another sentence, to fix this problem:

"Frank," I said, "I rolled the bocce ball off the field. Would you re-roll the ball?"

The emphasis on the interrogative sentence at the end is on "you" re-rolling the ball. And yet I rolled the ball originally.

Here's another one, as a statement instead of a question: "I rolled the ball too far away to reach. You get to re-roll the ball."