Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Probably a very simple question, Can a unit fire from a hatch while inside a landraider, does it have a firing hatch?

There is no firing point on a Land Raider for the unit that is being transported. Look at the entry in the book and compare it to the Rhino which has one fire point that allows two models from the transported unit to shoot from inside.

I hope that helps.

Check out page 81 of your Space Marine codex!

 kronk wrote:
There is no firing point on a Land Raider for the unit that is being transported. Look at the entry in the book and compare it to the Rhino which has one fire point that allows two models from the transported unit to shoot from inside.

I hope that helps.

This also helps define Which Hatch the 2 models are firing from on the rhino(hint: it is the only Opening on the top of the rhino that does not exist on the top of the Land raider)

Also those "Hatches" on top of the Land raider are not Hatches at all, they are copulas, same goes for the rhino, razorback, Chimera, Manticore, Leman russ, etc.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Also those "Hatches" on top of the Land raider are not Hatches at all, they are copulas, same goes for the rhino, razorback, Chimera, Manticore, Leman russ, etc.

Well to be fair a Cupola is a type of hatch.

To be fairer, a "cupola" minutes reading the codex would have answered the question.
ZING!

The Land Raider does not, as pointed out, have fire points. I totally understand the confusion, though, since it totally looks like it does! The hatches on top (or cupolas, as you like) appear to be fire points. The storm bolter or multimelta attachments for them even feature marines standing up out of the hatches to open fire. Nevertheless, buying those additional weapons for the vehicle itself is the only way to fire from the top openings.

 Jimsolo wrote:
The storm bolter or multimelta attachments for them even feature marines standing up out of the hatches to open fire.

Vehicle crew, not passengers.

The original Land Raider model did in fact have a roof hatch that up to 2 Marines could stand in, and either fire their weapons or man the 2 Heavy Bolters (1 facing front, 1 facing rear). Those were the days!

SJ

Or course back then, LR's weren't only for SM's..

I miss my Harlequin army, with graffiti'd up LR's ..

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

Also those "Hatches" on top of the Land raider are not Hatches at all, they are copulas, same goes for the rhino, razorback, Chimera, Manticore, Leman russ, etc.

Cupola
3. a protective dome for a gun on a warship

Pretty sure that they're hatches

hatch2 /hætʃ/ Show Spelled [hach] Show IPA
noun
1. Nautical .
a. Also called hatchway. an opening, usually rectangular, in the deck through which passengers can pass, cargo can be loaded or unloaded, etc.
b. [color=darkred]the cover over such an opening. [/color]
2. an opening that serves as a doorway or window in the floor or roof of a building. 3. the cover over such an opening.
4. Slang. the throat as used for drinking: His usual toast was a muttered “Down the hatch!”
5. Aeronautics . an opening or door in an aircraft.

There's no dome on the Rhino or any of those other vehicles that you mentioned. I do believe that the Immolator has a cupola.

'Cupola' doesn't just mean 'dome'. It's also the name for a small turret.

 insaniak wrote:
'Cupola' doesn't just mean 'dome'. It's also the name for a small turret.

I don't think that there are any references in the rules as to what a cupola is.
I used the actual deffinition.

A cupola is indeed a domed structure. You can look it up if you want.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cupola

Or yo can look at images of a cupola.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=5&gs_ri=psy-ab&cp=6&gs_id=j&xhr=t&q=cupola&rlz=1R2ADFA_enUS485&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.43287494,d.b2I&biw=1280&bih=633&wrapid=tljp1362855190422010&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=GIU7UfmPE8fW2QX6uYGwBQ

and then compare them against the deffinitions of hatch. There can be a hatch in a cupola, a hatch leading to a cupola.

We were not discussing turrets. That would be different.

He corrected another poster with inaccurate information when the original poster was more correct.

Here's the deffinition of Turret.

4. Military . a domelike, sometimes heavily armored structure, usually revolving horizontally, within which guns are mounted, as on a fortification, ship, or aircraft.
5. Fortification . a tall structure, usually moved on wheels, formerly employed in breaching or scaling a fortified place, a wall, or the like.

Also dome like. The Immolator has a cuploa/turret.

A rotating pintle mount is just that. a rotating pintle mount. The hatch or scuttle leading to that pintle mount is just that. a scuttle.

In the Navy, we refered to that large rectangulart watertight openings in the deck as hatches and the smaller, round openings as scuttles.

I was taking up for the original poster. It's horribly rude to correct someone, when no correction is warranted. It's especialy so to make such correction with inacurate information.

Cupola in a land military context also refers to a raised rounded observation point on top of a tracked vehicle. The Storm Bolter has in the past been referred to as both pintel-mounted and cupola-mounted.

I do think you've got a fair point that people shouldn't be too harsh or authoritative when talking to people who refer to the front rounded opening/s on the Rhino as a hatch/hatches. The more useful point to make is that the Rhino rules refer to a singular "hatch", not "hatches", and there's one big hatch over the passenger compartment, which is the obvious candidate.

 Idolator wrote:

I don't think that there are any references in the rules as to what a cupola is.
I used the actual deffinition.

A cupola is indeed a domed structure. You can look it up if you want.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cupola

Or yo can look at images of a cupola.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=5&gs_ri=psy-ab&cp=6&gs_id=j&xhr=t&q=cupola&rlz=1R2ADFA_enUS485&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.43287494,d.b2I&biw=1280&bih=633&wrapid=tljp1362855190422010&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=GIU7UfmPE8fW2QX6uYGwBQ

Since we are talking about hatches you can look at images of a Cupola hatch.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Cupola+hatch&hl=en&rlz=1C1DVCB_enUS383US392&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=TZ87UZPhJMOFrQGGqICgBA&ved=0CFsQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=653

 Mannahnin wrote:
I do think you've got a fair point that people shouldn't be too harsh or authoritative when talking to people who refer to the front rounded opening/s on the Rhino as a hatch/hatches. The more useful point to make is that the Rhino rules refer to a singular "hatch", not "hatches", and there's one big hatch over the passenger compartment, which is the obvious candidate.

However It could just as well mean the hatch in the front.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
I do think you've got a fair point that people shouldn't be too harsh or authoritative when talking to people who refer to the front rounded opening/s on the Rhino as a hatch/hatches. The more useful point to make is that the Rhino rules refer to a singular "hatch", not "hatches", and there's one big hatch over the passenger compartment, which is the obvious candidate.

However It could just as well mean the hatch in the front.

No, it really couldn't.

 insaniak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
I do think you've got a fair point that people shouldn't be too harsh or authoritative when talking to people who refer to the front rounded opening/s on the Rhino as a hatch/hatches. The more useful point to make is that the Rhino rules refer to a singular "hatch", not "hatches", and there's one big hatch over the passenger compartment, which is the obvious candidate.

However It could just as well mean the hatch in the front.

No, it really couldn't.

Why not? the rules say top hatch. There are 2 hatches on top of all of my rhino's.

Because there is only one hatch over the passenger area.

Because the front opening comes with bits to squeeze one model coming out of it, and there's clearly no room for two.

Because the one in the back is clearly big enough for two guys.

Because the front can be modeled with 1, 2, or zero hatches depending on how you choose to assemble your model, whereas the back always has the big hatch.

 DeathReaper wrote:
[However It could just as well mean the hatch in the front.

Yes, that is a bunch of pictures of hatches attached to the firing cupolas/turrets of tanks. The "doors" are the hatches, the turret is the cupola.

 Idolator wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
However It could just as well mean the hatch in the front.

Yes, that is a bunch of pictures of hatches attached to the firing cupolas/turrets of tanks. The "doors" are the hatches, the turret is the cupola.

Right, thus the Cupola Hatch, which is what we were talking about.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Because there is only one hatch over the passenger area.

Because the front opening comes with bits to squeeze one model coming out of it, and there's clearly no room for two.

Because the one in the back is clearly big enough for two guys.

All of this is fluff and not rules.

Because the front can be modeled with 1, 2, or zero hatches depending on how you choose to assemble your model, whereas the back always has the big hatch.

This depends on the model and how it is assembled. Of course this will have an impact on the game play, as the rules are very model dependent.

If there is a hatch in the front, why is that not a 'Top Hatch'

Clearly it is a hatch, clearly it is on the top of the vehicle.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Why not? the rules say top hatch. There are 2 hatches on top of all of my rhino's.

Because even if there isn't any current clarification, the wording has been more or less the same for about a gazillion years now, and GW have clarified in the past which hatch they mean.

Because having it be the firing point for one vehicle while every other vehicle that carries the exact same hatch doesn't have a fire point makes no sense.

And because assuming that the single-man hatch above the crew section is the fire point for two guys in the passenger compartment is ridiculous.


But you know all of that, you're just determined to make a point about RAW despite knowing full well that this is one instance where the RAW is not going to be applied to the game, ever.

The rules are driven by fluff. The Rhino has a single large hatch over the passenger section, which has space for two guys, and that's why it's the firing point, and why they've written the rule to allow two guys to fire out of it.

I have no idea what you guys are going on about. It has two fire points. To my knowledge, it doesn't call them anything other than fire points in the rules. We all agree, Yay!

Once again, I was assisting the OP. He was corrected A) when no correction was needed and B) with incorrect information.

Treatment of this kind does not promote honest discussion.

You can call the door on top what ever you want, Hatches, Doors, cupolas, Susan.

If we are discussing what they actualy are, then the large "French Doors" at the back would be a hatch and the smaller round doors that allow a single person to move through would be a scuttle.
Some people also call small round doors hatches, that's their perogative, as they are both openings in a structure. .

Cupola and turret can be used interchangably as they are both structures not openings.

The use of two words n the search provides pictures of cupolas with hatches on them. If you did a search for "house doors" you would get a bunch of pictures of houses with doors. The door is not the house.

 Idolator wrote:
I have no idea what you guys are going on about. It has two fire points. To my knowledge, it doesn't call them anything other than fire points in the rules. We all agree, Yay!

The Fire points entry in the Bestiary section says that two models can fire from the top hatch. Some people like to argue RAW over what they mean by 'top hatch'.

 insaniak wrote:

Because even if there isn't any current clarification, the wording has been more or less the same for about a gazillion years now, and GW have clarified in the past which hatch they mean.

Because having it be the firing point for one vehicle while every other vehicle that carries the exact same hatch doesn't have a fire point makes no sense.

And because assuming that the single-man hatch above the crew section is the fire point for two guys in the passenger compartment is ridiculous.


But you know all of that, you're just determined to make a point about RAW despite knowing full well that this is one instance where the RAW is not going to be applied to the game, ever.

On the rare times I use my rhinos I measure from the front hatch.

Clearly that is not where many people measure from though.

Not that it really matters either since the Rhino is AV 11 on front an sides either of the top hatches can be the same distance from the target enemy unit with the right positioning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Idolator wrote:
The use of two words n the search provides pictures of cupolas with hatches on them. If you did a search for "house doors" you would get a bunch of pictures of houses with doors. The door is not the house.

Plus there is this:

cu·po·la A gun turret; a small domed hatch above a gun turret on some tanks

https://www.google.com/search?q=cupola+definition&rlz=1C1DVCB_enUS383US392&aq=f&oq=cupola+definition&aqs=chrome.0.57.3050&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 insaniak wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
I have no idea what you guys are going on about. It has two fire points. To my knowledge, it doesn't call them anything other than fire points in the rules. We all agree, Yay!

The Fire points entry in the Bestiary section says that two models can fire from the top hatch. Some people like to argue RAW over what they mean by 'top hatch'.

Well, there you go. The "french doors" would be the hatch and the two remaining openings would be scuttles. The openings on the side and back would be doors that open as a ramp. Easy.

None of those things would ever be a cupola.

If y'all wanted to argue about the scuttles being hatches, go ahead. The terminology there changes depending on region and vocation, with no definitive answer. That's not what I was pointing out, however.

Since there are three opening on the top of the vehicle and the reference is to "top hatch" and not "Top Hatches" there is obviously only one hatch. The other two openings would be the scuttles.

Scuttles on a ship, or cupolas on a tank. The rounded rotating structure with two semicircular doors built into the top of it would be the cupola.

 Idolator wrote:
Since there are three opening on the top of the vehicle and the reference is to "top hatch" and not "Top Hatches" there is obviously only one hatch. The other two openings would be the scuttles.

Except the front hatch is a hatch and not a scuttle, as the vehicle is not a ship.

Scuttle is usually a nautical term, but it can apply to buildings as well. (But not vehicles).

scut·tle

1. A small opening or hatch with a movable lid in the deck or hull of a ship or in the roof, wall, or floor of a building.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/scuttle

So those hatches on the front are not scuttles.

The Rhino has at least four openings; three access points for embarkation/disembarkation on the sides and rear, and one large hatch over the passenger compartment which is the firing point.

It may be modeled with up to two more openings at the front, which are there for looks and/or to serve as weapon/wargear mounts.

 Mannahnin wrote:
The Rhino has at least four openings; three access points for embarkation/disembarkation on the sides and rear, and one large hatch over the passenger compartment which is the firing point.

It may be modeled with up to two more openings at the front, which are there for looks and/or to serve as weapon/wargear mounts.

It may be modeled with up to two more openings at the front, which are there for looks and/or to serve as weapon/wargear mounts, or the firing point as RAW dictates top hatch, and that is what the openings on the front are.