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2013/03/16 01:09:20
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Nice to see we're keeping a high standard of intellectual discourse in this thread.
It's feminism, the notion is asinine in the developed world frankly.
We only recently-- 1920-- gotten the right to vote. Our rise in the corporate and political world was even more recent, and is nowhere NEAR egalitarian. The American culture still places a much higher value on masculinity as opposed to femininity, and still values the input of men more than women. Hell, women only recently got the legal right to be considered combat troops, even though we've been actually participating in combat for more than a decade now. The double standards held to both women and men are harmful to both genders, and they still need to be broken down-- and the video game industry is no exception.
Anyone who thinks that the feminist movement is "asinine" is highly ignorant.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/16 01:20:01
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/03/16 01:23:39
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
Spyral wrote: I agree that double standards are harmful but there are more important things than feminism.
What a nonsensical viewpoint.
Are you going to start whining about "first world problems" now? As if the billions of people on the planet cannot focus on more than one problem at any given time? Because if you only want people to worry about "the most important things" according to your bizarre standards, video gaming wouldn't exist to begin with. Nor would 40k or DakkaDakka. If you really gave a damn about your supposed "more important things" then you'd not be here to begin with. However, you don't. You're just using that wonkish argument to try to belittle the feminist movement, nothing more.
Even ignoring the asinine nature of your objection, it may not be important to you, but it sure as hell is important to the people the misogyny of society actually effects.
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2013/03/16 01:59:14
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/03/16 01:46:34
Subject: Re:Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
If folks don't actually want to discuss the topic, they can post in some other thread whose topic they like better. We don't need to hear about how you don't like the thread and aren't participating.
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2013/03/18 02:55:44
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
Search the thread, that little video has already been posted, and then nobody cared because it's pathetic and lame-- rarely ever actually having a point, and even when it finally grasps a valid point, it runs off in a wild, nonsensical tangent.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/03/18 02:57:16
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/03/18 03:02:29
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
I think his valid points are limited to pointing out that Saarkasian isn't as intelligent on the subject as she seems to like to pretend she is (and once again her laughable thesis is brought up). He touches on the concept of actification and I find it funny that rather than make a video about that, he runs off on a wild tangent instead, bypassing the most valid point that can really be made about her videos. Other than that I think his only useful bit is pointing out that the games weren't made to be misogynistic but to turn a profit (though he again skips over the valid point that games marketed at a male audience will favor positive male PC's). The rest is kind of dribble. Like Saarkasian's video his valid points could have been summed up in about 5 minutes.
Oh and his hospital/police examples are kind of funny. A comedy bit could be made for some half decent stand up
And I actually wouldn't say the Double Dragon's Neon ending is grasping at straws. One could take that scene as mocking damsel in distress as a trope, and that she then used a game that mocks trope in her video shows that for a project in need of 'a great deal' of research she really didn't do any. Saarkasian strikes me as someone, frankly for lack of a better term, too stupid to actually make it as a meaningful academic on feminism. So she did what many failed wish-they-could-be-academics do. They peddle dribble to the internet.
Actually, Sarkesian did a bit better than he did. She qualified what she said-- these are great games, and they're very fun, but they're also still indicative of leftover misogyny in our culture-- which still needs to be fought against. It's not the games themselves that have the problem, but the overall culture especially in gaming. And it's still a problem today.
Most of what she said is absolutely true-- if you try to avoid watching her video mindset of "dat crazy feminist hurrr".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/18 17:24:07
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/03/18 17:29:28
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
hotsauceman1 wrote: What she said is true. BUT she says it in a very rudimentary way. Sh doesnt touch on anything other then "This is indicative of Misogyny"
I agree that she could have done better-- as I said in my first post on this thread, I expected a bit more out of a video that she had raised money to produce-- but she's still far better than the videos that people have posted attacking her (often attacking her personally instead of her argument, even).
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/03/18 18:18:46
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
I think it'd be sensible to wait and see what the next videos are like. It's part one of n, after all. It might be really bad or really good, but it's hard to say without the others for context.
"Misogyny and regressive tropes are okay as long as you're making a profit from them!" is a pretty ridiculous argument anyway.
2013/03/18 18:23:28
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: "Misogyny and regressive tropes are okay as long as you're making a profit from them!" is a pretty ridiculous argument anyway.
That's not really the point. The point is that she frames these cultural trends as misogynist, which isn't really accurate. Sexist yes, but I don't think society and culture as a whole can be accurately painted as misogynist.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: "Misogyny and regressive tropes are okay as long as you're making a profit from them!" is a pretty ridiculous argument anyway.
Indeed.
I hate it when people act like capitalism is some perfect ideal that needs to remain unadulterated and pure in the rela world.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LordofHats wrote: Sexist yes, but I don't think society and culture as a whole can be accurately painted as misogynist.
You're contradicting yourself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/18 18:24:28
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/03/18 18:29:23
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
I don't think we should er to assume all sexism stems from a hatred of women. That being the definition one would find in most dictionaries, and if using some alternative definition should probably be stated upfront, cause that's gonna cause a lot of issues.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/18 18:30:03
LordofHats wrote: I don't think we should er to assume all sexism stems from a hatred of women. That being the definition one would find in most dictionaries, and if using some alternative definition should probably be stated upfront, cause that's gonna cause a lot of issues.
Actually, I think there is a lot of leftover dislike of women in our culture. I have experienced it all throughout my life-- including in real life. And I'm hardly an outspoken person IRL (almost hte opposite of how I am on this forum really...).
And whether or not that dislike is personally acknowledged, or built in to the culture in a more subtle way, it's still misogyny.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/03/18 18:36:54
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
Melissia wrote: Actually, I think there is a lot of leftover dislike of women in our culture.
I don't disagree, but dislike isn't hate (EDIT: After all, hate is a strong word ). Misogyny literally means woman hater (in the Greek). I don't think society hates women. Prejudice takes many forms and not all of them stem from hate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/18 18:37:15
Melissia wrote: Actually, I think there is a lot of leftover dislike of women in our culture.
I don't disagree, but dislike isn't hate (EDIT: After all, hate is a strong word ). Misogyny literally means woman hater (in the Greek). I don't think society hates women. Prejudice takes many forms and not all of them stem from hate.
You're grasping at straws with this sort of pedantry. I don't acknowledge your distinction. Whether or not the hate is expressed overtly or subtly, it's still hate. And if we're using the dictionary definition: "intense or passionate dislike", then that's even more reason to use the term, in my experience. Hate is exactly how I would describe someone saying "you stupid [c-bomb] I hope you get raped to death", or "shutup you [c-bomb]" followed by "she's a [racial slur] lover", or "slutty whore shouldn't have gotten drunk she got raped like women deserve"-- vehemently dismissing and attempting to silence any woman who speaks on topics regarding women and attempting to belittle us as a group, or women who are attempting to enjoy a "man's hobby". And then these sorts of comments are DEFENDED by other people whenever someone calls them out on them, trying to say "you deserved it and you should shut up".
None of these are isolated incidents. IT's been going on for all of my life. I've had people say these sorts of things to my face, not just over the internet.
It's misogyny.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/03/18 18:48:42
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/03/18 19:03:03
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
Only problem I have with those whole thing is that she gathered 150k and now releases a video that you can make with less then 5k(and that's giving A LOT of extra). All she needed was a camera, greenscreen and a pc with video editing software.
This thing had almost no production values. Yeah, there will be more videos, but if they are all in this style they will have cost next to nothing to make after the first investment. With the current content you can't point to research either, so unless new videos will have some truly in depth hard to dig up stuff I'm still going to edge toward this all being a money grab.
(This is in no way about the whole feminism thing or what she's talking about, I'm just talking about the actual video itself, not it's contents.)
2013/03/18 19:08:59
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
Yeah, I agree that she should have put more effort in to it given the money that was raised.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/03/18 19:27:35
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
I actually thought she'd have release the next video by now but it's been nearly two weeks. I suspect more accusations of money grubbing with come if she doesn't establish a release schedule.
LordofHats wrote: I actually thought she'd have release the next video by now but it's been nearly two weeks. I suspect more accusations of money grubbing with come if she doesn't establish a release schedule.
I'd expect more accusations regardless.
But as for her schedule, if I had my guess, I'm thinking monthly or bimonthly. Just a bit of an ass-pull there, but she probably does have an IRL job she's doing alongside this.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/03/18 19:37:19
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: "Misogyny and regressive tropes are okay as long as you're making a profit from them!" is a pretty ridiculous argument anyway.
Indeed.
I hate it when people act like capitalism is some perfect ideal that needs to remain unadulterated and pure in the rela world.
It's bizarre seeing the number of threads about Games Workshop's crazy market-blind antics of the week alongside posts professing that the Magic of the Market would unerringly produce a product perfect for women if any such women existed (and, therefore, don't).
It'll be interesting to see how her more in-depth analysis turns out. I want to say that occasionally I've seen very shallow criticisms of games from non-video game playing feminist writers who should know better, but it'd be irresponsible to do that without an example and none are coming to mind (and google on the topic comes up almost exclusively with... Anita Sarkeesian!). I hope she can do the topic justice in the upcoming videos.
2013/03/18 19:37:32
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
My guess when this first started was a weekly schedule. I mean she's have months to work on this already and the production quality isn't that high. I figured she'd released the first one cause all the videos were finished XD
LordofHats wrote: My guess when this first started was a weekly schedule. I mean she's have months to work on this already and the production quality isn't that high. I figured she'd released the first one cause all the videos were finished XD
Yeah, hell, standard procedure for anyone making a series is have at least 6 episodes done before you release the first so you have a backlog in case of trouble.
2013/03/18 23:28:03
Subject: Re:Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
2013/03/18 23:35:04
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
). Misogyny literally means woman hater (in the Greek). I don't think society hates women. Prejudice takes many forms and not all of them stem from hate.
