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2013/03/20 03:00:11
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
Yeah, so-called "nice guys" that are just playing at nice to get sex, and get mad when it doesn't work because their phonyness is obvious to anyone who really pays attention.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/20 03:00:25
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/03/20 03:06:09
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
White knighting cannot be good and still be white knighting. Remember the definition of white knighting is that someone sticks up for you for the purpose of exploiting you in some other way, most generally in some sexual fantasy. That said, not everything that routinely gets called white knighting is white knighting.
The pedestal thing gets back to my question: has the pervasiveness of the damsel trope limited the role of female characters in video games generally? It seems to me that the extreme frequency of objectifying female characters has created expectations that make it hard to even imagine how female characters can exist as subjects in video games. Just taking Samus as an example, this character was unquestionably an agent for many years, cutting very strongly against the grain. But her most recent incarnation reverses that: while she is still the protagonist and "does things," she's bizarrely naive and frankly stupid -- a far cry from the badass of other installments.
Zelda did the same thing with Sheik being revealed as Princess Zelda. "This badass guy who was helping you is actually a chick and has to go get captured now."
Yeah, it's hard to imagine a game about Boba Fett where he weeps as much as Samus does in Other M. I don't think the fact that she's shown out of suit so much and with a voice is a coincidence in this regard, either.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/20 03:14:49
Manchu wrote: Remember the definition of white knighting is that someone sticks up for you for the purpose of exploiting you in some other way, most generally in some sexual fantasy.
That's an interesting take on the term . Not the definition I'm used to, but I can see it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/20 03:15:56
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/03/20 03:16:33
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
I honestly can't name a female character that the player is forced to play as that is not a sex symbol with the sole exception of the character from Beyond Good and Evil.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/03/20 03:23:52
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
This reminds me of that Family Guy rendition of the end of Mario, where Mario expects Peach will kiss him once Bowser is dead and she refuses on the very reasonable grounds that she doesn't even know him. Kind of an interesting idea that a world where women are pervasively seen as damsels will produce pathetic white knights.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/20 03:24:33
Speaking of damsels, I was looking for a game on Steam with a female protagonist, and I saw the new Bioshock Infinite. From the trailers it looks like you have to rescue the girl.
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
2013/03/20 03:45:46
Subject: Re:Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
Yep. She'll probably address that in a future video.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote: This reminds me of that Family Guy rendition of the end of Mario, where Mario expects Peach will kiss him once Bowser is dead and she refuses on the very reasonable grounds that she doesn't even know him. Kind of an interesting idea that a world where women are pervasively seen as damsels will produce pathetic white knights.
I rescued you, where's my sex?!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Is this art reflecting society or society reflecting art?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/20 03:47:39
If white knighting is a real thing, which is arguably generally and in each specific instance, then it does fit pretty well with the expectations of women that a feminist critique of the damsel trope predicts. At the very least, the white knight meme itself shows that such a prediction is accurate at least at the level of perception.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/03/20 04:27:40
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
Amaya wrote: I honestly can't name a female character that the player is forced to play as that is not a sex symbol with the sole exception of the character from Beyond Good and Evil.
I could think of a few others, April Ryan & Zoe Castillo from the longest journey series, Faith of Mirrors Edge. Beyond that though I'm really having to think hard and resort to obscure foreign or indy titles. I guess you could also include Lara Croft after the recent release so long as you ignore over a decades worth of titles in the series.
Double Fine Adventure, Wasteland 2, Nekro, Shadowrun Returns, Tropes vs. Women in Video Games, Planetary Annihilation, Project Eternity, Distance, Dreamfall Chapters, Torment: Tides of Numenera, Consortium, Divinity: Original Sin, Smart Guys, Raging Heroes - The Toughest Girls of the Galaxy, Armikrog, Massive Chalice, Satellite Reign, Cthulhu Wars, Warmachine: Tactics, Game Loading: Rise Of The Indies, Indie Statik, Awesomenauts: Starstorm, Cosmic Star Heroine, THE LONG DARK, The Mandate, Stasis, Hand of Fate, Upcycled Machined Dice, Legend of Grimrock: The Series, Unsung Story: Tale of the Guardians, Cyberpunk Soundtracks, Darkest Dungeon, Starcrawlers
I have a KickStarter problem.
2013/03/20 04:35:55
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
I found that cracked article to be funny, but I'm wondering about a male's viewpoint of the various points he brought up.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/03/20 04:36:53
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
Melissia wrote: I found that cracked article to be funny, but I'm wondering about a male's viewpoint of the various points he brought up.
Reasons #4 and #5 are particularly germane to the discussion. Also, the male viewpoint there seems specifically cultivated for the sake of comedy. I'm not saying it isn't problematic just emphasizing Sarkeesian's point that problematic things can also be enjoyable.
Well yes, it's Cracked, so some of the stuff is comedy. But do you think that's relevant or accurate?
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/03/20 12:30:41
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
Its a little bit like the type of male who is the Nice Guy and thinks that after X number of nice guy actions someone will sleep with him
Amaya wrote: I honestly can't name a female character that the player is forced to play as that is not a sex symbol with the sole exception of the character from Beyond Good and Evil.
FemShep, or any character you create in RPGs. But then again that is down to the individual as to how they are played.
2013/03/20 13:18:35
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
Manchu wrote:This reminds me of that Family Guy rendition of the end of Mario, where Mario expects Peach will kiss him once Bowser is dead and she refuses on the very reasonable grounds that she doesn't even know him. Kind of an interesting idea that a world where women are pervasively seen as damsels will produce pathetic white knights.
Robot Chicken did it too with Legend of Zelda:
Sorry for crappy video quality.
Is this art reflecting society or society reflecting art?
I tend to think it's a never ending cycle of one bouncing off the other.
Melissia wrote:I found that cracked article to be funny, but I'm wondering about a male's viewpoint of the various points he brought up.
As someone who normally doesn't like Cracked, I kind of like that one. It has a sort of blunt realism too it. I think #1 is 100% accurate. Probably the most insightful thing I've ever read off that site. #2 I think is generally true, though I'd honestly throw in a lot of the nice things guys do for women plays to that as well. No just the mean things. We're conditioned to treat ladies with respect, which then mixes in with feelings of lost masculinity (it's like mixing matter and anti-matter, it just blows up).
#3 is interesting. I never thought of it in that way, but I have read articles and sections of books that talk about the repression of male sexuality in culture. That where women have their sexuality intrinsically connected to the essence of their person, a man's sexuality is separated (a side effect of objectification/actification I think). I don't know... Gonna need to think more on that one.
#4 I'm not sure on. Yeah I definitely think that culturally we think of women in a very physical sense, but I'm not sure I'd characterize men as always thinking about sex. I can freely admit it certainly occupies a lot of time, but not all the time. I can't say I've ever felt anger at an unattractive woman. At worst just indifference. But then maybe I'm not the ideal case cause I feel indifference to a lot of things. I do definitely see those annual summer magazines where they have the celebrities in swimsuits and its all about who's hot and who's not, but I never paid much attention to that stuff. It's tabloids, so I assume only the pathetic bother.
#5 Definitely though I think the author characterizes it slightly wrong. We're taught that the success of a man (and intrinsically our masculinity) is measured by our ability to get what we want. I don't think that the stories are necessarily about a woman having no choice in the matter (I don't think that plays into this) I think it's about how we're taught that if we do <list of good things> that we will eventually find that special girl and be happy. When reality doesn't work out like that (and it usually doesn't) we get frustrated. When our 'happily ever after' is continually thwarted, some men react very very badly and I've recently had a very real experience with this problem with my sister's ex. I'd clarify that point not as men thinking they're entitled to a hot girl, but rather that men think that by doing all the things expected of them one will just drop into their lap (maybe that's splitting hairs though). They then get frustrated either because that fantasy never happens, or because they are unable to live up to the masculine ideal in the first place and then they blame women for having standards they can't live up to.
I think a lot can be said that one of the reason's the divorce rate is so high is that men (and I think women too) have been conditioned by popular culture into viewing love and marriage as something a lot less complicated and a lot more romantic happily ever after than it really is. I mean, how many stories actually continue past the "they finally did it" part? X-File's lost ratings when the sexual tension between Mulder and Scully ended. Along with a terrible Season 2, it hurt the series Dark Angel (which pretty much ran off Jessica Alba's sex appeal to begin with). Generally the happy ever after only happens at the end of something. End of story, everything else is hunky dorry. Until the sequel comes along and you find out they broke up.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/20 13:21:51
About #4, I think this one helps contextualize the anger even guys who consider themselves open-minded have with feminist critiques. For example, after watching the damsels vid I thought to myself, "given that I agree with everything she said why do I still feel like she was hostile?" There was a gap between my rational and emotional reactions. In some way, and I admit to having trouble articulating this, I think this is related to the fine line between being decorated and being decor. I think this also comes up in that sleazy "Feminism v. Facts" vid where that guy attempts to rehabilitate the damsel trope by saying Sarkeesian doesn't value healthy relationships.
About #5, I really agree with LoH's notes on this one -- all popular media, including video games, do tell men that a beautiful woman is their just reward as part of a successful male life. And so this is inextricably bound up with many a man's definition of success and feeling of self worth. So it's not simply that men feel they are owed a beautiful woman but more importantly that men feel that a successful man is owed a beautiful woman. Otherwise successful single guys that I know have a lot of self-doubt wrapped up in being single -- and it's toxic: not having a beautiful wife or girlfriend throws everything else they've accomplished into doubt.
These examples show how feminist critiques aren't necessarily out to "get men" or somehow "even the score" (as per Monster Rain asking what an acceptable ratio of object-to-subject portrayals of female characters would be earlier ITT) but rather how uncritical use of narrative structures like the damsel trope have negative consequences for women and men.
Dreadclaw69 wrote: Its a little bit like the type of male who is the Nice Guy and thinks that after X number of nice guy actions someone will sleep with him
Guys like that are why many women, including me, often put "nice guy" in quotation marks.
Self-described "nice guys" who were just being nice to try to get in the pants/skirts of the women they were being nice to.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/03/20 16:02:20
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/03/20 16:13:03
Subject: Tropes vs. Women Episode 1: Damsel In Distress
Self-described "nice guys" who were just being nice to try to get in the pants/skirts of the women they were being nice to.
Apologies, I didn't think to put it in quotation marks. Tried to look at your link but it just looks like a jumble gak of images to me (I don't use that site, or come to think of it Twitter )
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/20 16:13:24
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
