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Oni was pretty good too.

 Slarg232 wrote:
I actually know a good handful of women who hate feminists for that.

I also know two or three who say they would rather not have a job, but "Thanks feminist movement!"

Me, holding a door open for a woman. She, yelling "Freaking chauvinist!", my gf "Be grateful for him holding the door open, bitch!". Love her.

Do not try to argue rationally with feminists. There are very, very few feminists that listen to reason but their number is extremely limited. In fact, most feminists just appear to be extremely sexist towards men, hating each and everyone of them, claming that there still is a patriarchy ruling the Western society (hint: that's bs) etc. That's why I have a problem with feminists and just can't take them seriously: those bad examples throw an extremely bad light at women actually interested in equality. Those women gotta struggle to be taken seriously because of the omni-present "I HATE MEN SO MUCH"-"feminists" that are just trying to get attention or are...frustrated for whatever reason.

...and really, everyone claiming that holding the door open is sexist behavior has serious mental issues and needs help.

If you are holding a door open because the person is a woman, that is sexist. That's what sexist means - discriminating based on sex. If you are just holding a door open because it's a person who is coming through the door and you opened it already then that's not sexist.

Feminists are people who believe men and women should be equal. If you agree men and women should be equal, congratulations, you are a feminist.

I'm not sure why Faith and Konoko are being brought up, but yes, they were very cool characters. I sort of have trouble saying if they're strong characters, female as neither of them gets, to my recollection, a great deal of fleshing out, so I guess whether they are or not depends on your definition. I love both of them, though.

I hold the door open for men.

On the first few pages of this thread, there was a James Cameron line about strong female characters and switching the pronouns.

The thinking I've been having is, while the results effectively the same, the sort of preferred end state is. A writer writes an action hero archetype character and then decides on the gender at the same time they start writing about things that may relate to the characters gender.

There's a comment (again it might be from this thread), about when they chose to genderflip Watson for Elementary, they said outright. "What we're going to have here is a bromance, except one of the bro's is a woman."

 Compel wrote:
Personally, I'm kinda glad Manchu is a mod, he's saying stuff right now that I'd want to be saying but would only do so passive-aggressively.

Like uh, this. Dammit.

Yeah, I like his views on gender and race issues.

 Melissia wrote:

 rockerbikie wrote:
People such as Amazingatheist have made arguments against the feminist community with stats and a majority of feminists ignore it.

People like you have long since made gak up to try to demonize the feminist movement.

But that doesn't make your made-up gak suddenly stop being becoming nothing more than blatant lies.



And yes, I do mean the term "lie" here. You have been given numerous examples of feminists who argue that double standards hurt men as well. You have been given numerous examples of feminist ideals that would benefit men. But no, you ignore them-- and say "feminists are eeeeevil" because your entire argument can't stand on its own without that strawman to support it.

Hell it was the feminist movement that said "men don't always have to pay for dinner on a date; the woman can pay for it if she's better off, or hell, you can split it!". The feminist movement has also been among the bigger supporters of men getting paternal leave as well. Getting rid of double standards that devalue people because of their gender is the defining goal of the feminist movement. Where feminists vary, usually, is on how to enact said goal, and where to focus limited resources first.

Females get sentenced 40% less time in jail than men for equivalent crime. Male circumcision is ok but female is abhorrent. Which female circumcisiobion is but male circumcision is just as bad. Domestic violence against men is just as common as domestic violence against females but is not taken seriously by the media, by the police, by anyone. Men are not treated fairly for child custody when it comes to who makes child support payments and reproductive rights. Males can be drafted. Females can not be drafted. A lot of the social reasons like the paternial leave and males not paying(should be split) while not focusing on legal problems is leading to a majority of people asking "do you want a matriarchy?"

Did you NOT read what she posted?

Let me quote it for you:

You have been given numerous examples of feminists who argue that double standards hurt men as well. You have been given numerous examples of feminist ideals that would benefit men. But no, you ignore them-- and say "feminists are eeeeevil" because your entire argument can't stand on its own without that strawman to support it.

 rockerbikie wrote:
Females get sentenced 40% less time in jail than men for equivalent crime. Male circumcision is ok but female is abhorrent. Which female circumcisiobion is but male circumcision is just as bad. Domestic violence against men is just as common as domestic violence against females but is not taken seriously by the media, by the police, by anyone. Men are not treated fairly for child custody when it comes to who makes child support payments and reproductive rights. Males can be drafted. Females can not be drafted.

If you had a point, it'd be irrelevant because these things ARE argued against by feminists. There have been numerous mentions of each and every one of these topics by feminist groups. I personally have argued for a draft to apply to everyone regardless of gender on this very fething forum.

You're acting no better than the white supremacist groups who talk about how the black man keeps the white man down. Your attempts to demonize the feminist movement are nonsensical, incoherent, and weak, incapable of standing on their own without this kind of obnoxious misinformation.

And you know what? Yeah, feminists focus on the problems that women have in society. Men ARE the privileged class. Men are the social group that has been in power since time immemorial, not women-- in government, in the media, in business, in education, in science. They have been for a very long time. If you're really angry about how "men are mistreated" as you claim, then you have only the patriarchy to blame for it. Don't blame feminism for it, feminists didn't cause the problems, we're just trying to solve them for the sake of a better future for everyone involved. But feminist organizations don't exist to serve men, just like the NAACP doesn't exist for the sake of the white man.

Every single one of those things you mentioned, without exception, is a piece of cultural baggage left over from older days, long before women began to have successes in trying to be considered as equal human beings to men.

So let's go down the list one by one:

First off, male circumcision is actually considered controversial. There have been numerous debates about it on this very forum. It's a holdover from older days, and both its benefits, drawbacks, and whether or not it should be done are all hotly debated. If you're that ignorant about the topic that you think that it's somehow NOT controversial, don't even bother talking about it.

Domestic violence against men is just as common as domestic violence against females

No, it's not.

[1]Women are seven to fourteen times more likely to be seriously physically abused by their partners than men. [2]Furthermore, three times as many women are murdered every year by intimate partners than men. Of women who are murdered a full one third are murdered by intimate partners. Of men who are murdered, only about four percent are murdered by intimate partners.

As for society not believing men when they are abused? Again, leftover cultural baggage. Congratulations, the patriarchal society that we live in is the very reason why you have something to complain about-- it's assumed that women are harmless by society and therefor the man shouldn't be abused by her.

It's stupid, I agree. But this is not something that is CAUSED by feminists. It's something that feminists are fighting against, because it also harms women by making women targets for abuse.

Men are not treated fairly for child custody when it comes to who makes child support payments and reproductive rights.

Leftover cultural baggage from an older time when men were assumed to be incapable of raising children. Men were breadwinners and women stayed at home raising the children, therefor if a man divorced the woman it was assumed that the woman would be unable to find proper work while still being able to raise the child. This is being changed, slowly, as time goes on.

Also, reproductive rights? You don't have any authority over what goes on in the woman's body . If you were carrying the foetus, THEN you'd have authority over it. That is all. If you want to talk about abortion, go to the off topic section. This avenue of discussion is over in this thread.

Males can be drafted. Females can not be drafted.

Leftover cultural baggage from a time when women were not allowed to be soldiers. It is very likely that this will be changed as time goes on, and more and more women serve in the military. With more rights, after all, comes more responsibility. A fact that women have been learning more and more, as we try to move up in the the worlds of politics, business, and so on.

And finally, Manchu has already stated that if you seriously want to start talking about the men's rights movement, start a new thread about it.

I read something interesting about NOLF the other day: They wanted to do it as a straight up serious spy shooter first with a James Bond expy, but were warned by MGM studios and Brocolli productions that if they did that, they'd be sued into oblivion for doing an unofficial James Bond game. So Monolith switched the protagonist from Sjames Bond to Cate Archer, made it less serious and a great pair of games were born. Contract J.A.C.K. does not count and we like to think it never happened by the way.

Gods, this is ridiculously funny. I like the fact that men causing more domestic violence than women is sexist - why use rational reasoning? We can just blame the evil, evil non-existing patriarchy for everything that goes wrong!

Mel's posts also ooze the self-rightneousness "feminists" speak of, claiming that their vision of the world is superior to those of every opposing mind. What gives feminist the right to speak for all women? Often when reading discussions on certain issues, every women who *dares* having a different opinion on certain issues gets looked down upon and is called a "man's pet / toy". That's not feminism, that's elitism. Snobbish elitism.

As I said above, a lot of feminists are not feminists, but sexists. Nobody with a sane mind would argue against feiminism thus equal rights for all sexes. A lot of feminists do not want gender equality, they want gender superiority in favor of women. That's a whole different thing. Those women want all the bonusses but want to leave the negative consequences behind. Men paying for child care? YEAH! Men suddenly having the same right to see / keep the child? NONONO. Again: that's sexism, not feminism.

Domestic violence vs. women? Bad bad bad! Domestic violence against men? Not our problem! Again: sexism, not feminism. Plus: women beat their children more than men do, 53,6% of child abusers were female as of ACF, 2012. Woops!

"Women get paid less than men! SEXISM!" The entire argument needs more thinking. If I could hire women for ~20% less wage, why wouldn't I hire women only? I'd increase my net profit by 20% of the previous wages! The problem are the gross overgeneralisations "feminists" and media make. They just average out salaries and then see the "gap" claming it to be a sexist fact. Don't mind that a lot of well-paying jobs are dominated by men because of mere interest and that there is a huge gap from e.g. engineering to retail average wages. SEXISM!!! MEN DOMINATE ENGINEERING! Bullcrap. Very few women enlist in engineering studies thus less women work in the area thus more men have a higher income in this part. Simple logic. There is no doubt about there still being a pay gap and that needs to be tackled, but it's far less serious than female sexists make it out to be.

...and there's stuff to go on and on and on.

As matter of fact, a lot of female sexist facts are not facts, but made up bullcrap they sell to the media. Feminism is a much needed movement that has led to a lot of good things and it needs further support - gender equality (!) should be a given.

What nobody needs are those hypocrits, calling themselves "feminists" despite being female sexists. Gender superiority should not be a thing but they want it to be one.

- Sigvatr, bringing some reason in the topic.

 Melissia wrote:
.

And you know what? Yeah, feminists focus on the problems that women have in society. Men ARE the privileged class. Men are the social group that has been in power since time immemorial, not women-- in government, in the media, in business, in education, in science.

[ ]

Sorry, there is considerable evidence that many human societies were matriarchal at some point. It may have been a long time ago, but using time immemorial is a misnomer, if we have evidence and research on it it is in memory. you say feminists are for equality then say feminists focus on the problems that women have in society, please make your mind up.

The main thing i'd like to see from feminists is consistency. I also reject being labelled a feminist , I'm for equality , not one part of a whole.The name feminism does not imply you are working for equality, but working for women only.

I do agree with sigvatr on one point, alot of feminists (particularly the ones that get airplay) are very disbarraging of men . Things would be so much better if the majority of people who want equality got airplay instead of the fringe idiots we seem to get because they are "easy soundbites".

Isn't that just attempting to sidestep the problem? There's people with... uncertain... motives in every group - most rational people don't hold up the Westboro church as the main example of Christianity.

One of the biggest issues, I'm thinking now, is by holding the fringe opinions on say, feminism as the majority feminist opinion does make it very easy to pretend there's no real problem at all.

When there most certainly is. Here's the latest example from the BBC.

Although, of course, reality is a bit more complicated than making a simple point but still, it's enough to say that there's certain something not right in technology.

Typical overreaction. It's ridiculous to get fired for such a minor issue. A grown-up, adult reaction would have been to confront the employees with your feelings about it, telling them that you are uncomfortable with it.

Taking this route merely proves that you are not able to deal with such things and, oh the irony, need a superior to even it out for you. That's sth. you should do if such a behavior continues.

Alas, the shitstorm she now gets is what was to be expected. You reap what you sow.

Just to play around with the idea behind it: what do you think would happen if a woman made a dick joke? Would you expect the reaction to be the same?

 Sigvatr wrote:
why use rational reasoning?

You certainly don't. Your post is so full of blatant lies and irrational hatred of feminists that it's really not worth responding to in detail. For example, you lied and said that I speak for all women, which is something that I never claimed. You lied and said that feminists are sexist using examples that contradicted what was posted by feminists before. And yet despite the constant logical fallacies you throw out, especially the constant use of strawman, you have the gall to try to claim that I am not using rational thinking here. How droll.

 BrookM wrote:
So Monolith switched the protagonist from Sjames Bond to Cate Archer, made it less serious and a great pair of games were born.

I think I remember that game. It was pretty fun, and it's sad that it hasn't gotten much attention.

Bullockist wrote:
you say feminists are for equality then say feminists focus on the problems that women have in society, please make your mind up.

The two are not mutually exclusive, therefor there is no mind to make up.

As for consistency, you're seeing consistency right now. You're not looking for "consistency" at all, or you'd have noticed that most of the feminist arguments in this thread HAVE been very, very consistent all along.

Sigvatr wrote:There are very, very few feminists that listen to reason but their number is extremely limited. In fact, most feminists just appear to be extremely sexist towards men, hating each and everyone of them

Do you find it hard to paint miniatures? It looks like you only own a broad brush.

TedNugent wrote:I hold the door open for men.

Yeah, really, man - who doesn't do this? That's just good manners. Unless they are in the "grey zone" of 10-20 feet away, in which it would be awkward to stand there and make them run. But that's got nothing to do with their genitalia.


You know what I was thinking about the other day? Salt, the film. That had Angelina Jolie as an action star, and she was (attempting) to rescue her husband. That's pretty damn rare in movies - I suspect it might not have happened even in this movie; had the role not originally been intended for Tom Cruise.


EDIT: dammit, quote functionality, you made a monkey out of me for the last time

I'm "sexist towards men" for saying "society views women as weak and therefor dismisses female on male violence" and following up by saying "this is stupid and feminists are trying to solve this problem because it creates problems for both genders".

And then people wonder why the Men's Rights Movement is labeled as a hate group.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ouze wrote:
You know what I was thinking about the other day? Salt, the film. That had Angelina Jolie as an action star, and she was (attempting) to rescue her husband. That's pretty damn rare in movies - I suspect it might not have happened even in this movie; had the role not originally been intended for Tom Cruise.

Urge to make closet jokes... rising...

 Melissia wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
why use rational reasoning?

You certainly don't. Your post is so full of blatant lies and irrational hatred of feminists that it's really not worth responding to in detail. For example, you lied and said that I speak for all women, which is something that I never claimed. You lied and said that feminists are sexist using examples that contradicted what was posted by feminists before. And yet despite the constant logical fallacies you throw out, especially the constant use of strawman, you have the gall to try to claim that I am not using rational thinking here. How droll.

I did not expect a proper answer of you. I have read, transcripted and taken part in far more than enough discussions with and about female sexists - you cannot argue rationally with them. They are not interested in rational discussions or anyone agreeing with them...I quote:

Some (wo)men just want to watch the world burn. [sic]

Actual feminists are a small minority that is worth listening to. It's amazing how much work and struggle they face in their work and it's sad that they get ignored by the media most of the time. It just doesn't sell as good as another prominent female sexist spreading their propaganda around.

Most of my post wasn't directly headed towards you, but if you do identify with it, then you're not a feminist, but a female sexist. Hands down. (no sexual pun intended).

 Sigvatr wrote:
They are not interested in rational discussions

I'm interested in a rational discussion.

Call me when you actually start one.


And no, you making up gak about the feminist movement isn't rational.

 Ouze wrote:

Sigvatr wrote:There are very, very few feminists that listen to reason but their number is extremely limited. In fact, most feminists just appear to be extremely sexist towards men, hating each and everyone of them

Do you find it hard to paint miniatures? It looks like you only own a broad brush.

Your interest in my brush is...interesting. Sorry though, I'm already taken :(

I'm already highlighting the miniature here. "Feminist" is a general term that's misused most of the time. Actual feminists strive for gender equality whereas a lot of "feminists" pretend being feminists but are, in fact, female sexists striving for gender superiority. They are in a very comfortable position as even women speaking against them get talked down immediately.

It's the same for racism. Black -> White racism *does* exist, but if anyone brings it up, he's about to get shot down immediately. Not literally of course -_-

 Sigvatr wrote:
Actual feminists strive for gender equality whereas a lot of "feminists" pretend being feminists but are, in fact, female sexists striving for gender superiority.

No, that's just you making up gak about the feminist movement to demonize it so you have something to complain about.

 Monster Rain wrote:
Oni was pretty good too.

I really want to play this -- just have never gotten around to it yet.

 Manchu wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:
Oni was pretty good too.

I really want to play this -- just have never gotten around to it yet.

I heard that Bungie was going to make a sequel to it at some point, but I don't think it actually panned out.

Melissia wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
They are not interested in rational discussions

I'm interested in a rational discussion.

Call me when you actually start one.


And no, you making up gak and lying about the feminist movement isn't rational.

Uh Mel? You and I just had a discussion in this very thread that was you flipping out because I used ONE WORD you didn't like and you posted something about OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND...... You get the point.

I mean, I know the mods deleted it, but it DID happen.....

Manchu wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:
Oni was pretty good too.

I really want to play this -- just have never gotten around to it yet.

Oni looked awesome, I wish I had a chance to play it.

 Slarg232 wrote:
Uh Mel? You and I just had a discussion in this very thread that was you flipping out because I used ONE WORD you didn't like

Yes, I've been under a lot of stress and not everything I have posted has been perfect. And I believe I apologized for my actions via PM at some point.

That does not excuse lying about feminists purely to insult the movement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Slarg232 wrote:
Oni looked awesome, I wish I had a chance to play it.

I had it. It was quite fun, one of the first good third person shooters to include melee combat as a decent gameplay mechanic.

Remember Me looks like it functions on a very similar level as Oni actually, in terms of gameplay style.

 Melissia wrote:

 Slarg232 wrote:
Uh Mel? You and I just had a discussion in this very thread that was you flipping out because I used ONE WORD you didn't like

Yes, I've been under a lot of stress and not everything I have posted has been perfect. And I believe I apologized for my actions via PM at some point.

Don't think you did, but you don't have to. Water under the bridge and all that XD
To say that I myself wasn't being an ass, or insensative wouldn't be out of line either.

Dunno, I think I'm looking forward to it after seeing a gameplay trailer about it.

Yeah, it looks awesome, but its Capcom.... It'll be an additional $40 within a month for stuff already on the disc...

I'm feeling optimistic. After all, they managed to convince Capcom to NOT change the gender of the main character.

So maybe the developers have more say in the game's development than normal here. Which can only be a good thing given the history of big producers.

True, and it would be refreshing to see a new IP in todays sequel market.