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 Monster Rain wrote:
So what is it that separates the enlightened few from the brainwashed, sexist masses?

Apparently it's a vagina

Bullockist wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:
So what is it that separates the enlightened few from the brainwashed, sexist masses?

Apparently it's a vagina

Well it's probably easier to recognize prejudice and discrimination if you're the victim, because you can just ignore it if you're not.

 Melissia wrote:

easysauce wrote:
that is not me "bashing" the movement

I don't believe you for a moment, given your history in this thread.

If you'd be quiet about the extremists for even one moment maybe you'd realize none of them are posting in this thread-- so responding to every single post as if we're all extremists just makes you look like a bit of a jerk.

And that's all you do, rant endlessly about extremists as if that's all that exists-- ignoring the actual points brought up just so that you can try to talk about extremists once again. It's just another means by people like you to attempt to discredit the feminist movement. And I'm calling you out on it because I'm tired of this crap. It's stupid and it does nothing but distract from the real issues at hand.

Hell, it's like if there was a discussion on Christian charity and some jerk atheist came up and started talking about Westboro Baptist and just wouldn't shut up about it.

why you focus so much on insulting me, and go from "feth this" "feth that" to calling me "feminist basher" to flat out lying about what I am saying,

this isnt a debate, or a discussion, you are now just insulting me for no reason other then I disagree with you.

but like you said, I should just be "quiet" like a "good" boy and not speak my mind.

no double standards there,

I may not agree with you, but at least IM not swearing and insulting your character.

I have been polite and accommodating, and have not berated you with insults or falsely attributed words to you.

as if my goal is to discredit the "movement" , as if I could if I wanted to even... what was that about straw men? oh yeah fabricate the lie that I am anti feminist, may as well right?

that is some real paranoia, and it too bad you refuse to engage in a rational discussion that allows dissenting viewpoints from your own, as opposed to emotionally reacting and insulting me.

just because I disagree with you, I am an anti feminist...
right,

good luck with that.

Just watch this easy:




It gets really interesting at 6 minute + mark where her intent is pretty clear. Go to 7minutes 15 seconds and the evidence is right there with her own words.

And word of the wise, take a page out of Anita Saarkisians book and just ignore all comments from Melissa, unless you can use them to make money.

Here is Anita on national news playing the victim and plugging her kickstarter at the same time:

Melissias obvious die-hard trolling left aside, let's get back to the videos and less about being sexist.

Regarding the second video: the internet, home of lovely people. The reaction by the guy who made that beat-up game is just ridiculous.

Regarding the "Fat, Slutty" etc. homepage, this entire part of the video was slowed. Judging by what I heard from other players during LoL, my mom must have slept with more men that exist, I'd be dead for *hundreds* of times, I also get got death threats etc. Where's the difference in being called a "son of a birch" or "slat"? What's the difference in "I'll cut your duck off" or "show me your boobies"? It's not sexist, it's just an altered insult. Everyone, literally, everyone gets insulted in video games. Hell, I'ven been told to get raped as well -___-

The rest of the video standard news style, but overall, showed a good portrait of how "nice" people are on the internet for people who didn't know before. The problem, however, is not sexism, it's the general attitude of behavior.

...and wait, that woman makes games "specifically for women"? Which means...games like Halo aren't made for women? O_o

/e: The first video is interesting. inb4 Melissia calling the guy who made it sexist o/

On the other hand, though, keep in mind that it's her right to close comments, pull off videos or exclude certain interviews. And even if she uses the comments section as honey pots aka draw angry gamers in to prove her point - that's her right as well. If people would not make such posts, she would not have a point. But since they do, it's her choice to use them to her advantage.

NSFW language but it nails the point home.

 Melissia wrote:
That might be more accurate.

Although regardless of which logical fallacy, it's still a logical fallacy.

A logical fallacy is fallacious whether it is being used consciously in discussion or if it is simply a failure of comprehension.

 Cheesecat wrote:

Bullockist wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:
So what is it that separates the enlightened few from the brainwashed, sexist masses?

Apparently it's a vagina

Well it's probably easier to recognize prejudice and discrimination if you're the victim, because you can just ignore it if you're not.

Yes, but there are plenty of women that aren't mad about super Mario brothers.

Why is that?

And I can't help but laugh at the railing against logical fallacies from someone who relies entirely on them in their trolling of this thread (ie no true Scotsman, ad hominem, and flat out misrepresentation).

That's an ad hominem argument.

Probably a lot of women have more important things to worry about that Super Mario, like equal pay.

Read the title of the thread, then the post you're replying to in the appropriate context, and we'll try this again.

Let us also note the difference between argument and observation.

 Monster Rain wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:
Well it's probably easier to recognize prejudice and discrimination if you're the victim, because you can just ignore it if you're not.

Yes, but there are plenty of women that aren't mad about super Mario brothers.

I'm not sure this matters. What point are you getting at?

easysauce wrote:
why you focus so much on insulting me

If me calling you out on what you've been doing this entire thread is insulting to you, maybe you should re-think what you've been doing.

I'm not asking you to shut up entirely. I just wish you'd stop talking as if the extremist portions of the group were anything other than the insignificantly small portion that they are.

 Ravenous D wrote:
NSFW language but it nails the point home.

That quickly descended from gibbering idiot who might have a point (overstated as it may be) to just plain gibbering idiot.

Also: Atheists wonder how 'atheist' comes to be treated like a dirty word This guy

Once again, men's rights issues are a separate topic that should be discussed in a separate thread.

 Manchu wrote:
Once again, men's rights issues are a separate topic that should be discussed in a separate thread.

Actually, no, they aren't. If you're talking about actual feminism, which means gender equality, you also have to consider the other side of the spectrum aka men's rights - else you can't talk about equality.

They are linked issues however it is not necessary to discuss the details of men's rights in order to discuss equality in terms of bringing women up to the same level.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Once again, men's rights issues are a separate topic that should be discussed in a separate thread.

Actually, no, they aren't. If you're talking about actual feminism, which means gender equality, you also have to consider the other side of the spectrum aka men's rights - else you can't talk about equality.

Actually, men's rights are not at issue here. As clearly exhibited ITT, that issue has been brought up repeatedly to derail the actual discussion, which is of portrayals of female characters in video games. The feminist critique to hand does not advocate anything one way or the other about men's rights. Please start a separate thread on that matter if you wish to discuss it. Final warning.

 Manchu wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:
Well it's probably easier to recognize prejudice and discrimination if you're the victim, because you can just ignore it if you're not.

Yes, but there are plenty of women that aren't mad about super Mario brothers.

I'm not sure this matters. What point are you getting at?

There are women who don't care about the issue at hand in this thread.

I'm wondering how they are viewed by the Anita Sarkeesians of the world, since in many instances the type of person who feels that they are a member of a persecuted class , race, gender, etc tend to view members of their group that disagree with their extremist positions to be "sell outs" or "brainwashed" or an "Uncle Tom" or what have you. Generally there's some sort of feeling of exceptionalism in these people, and a feeling of superiority over those "sheeple" who haven't managed to escape the Matrix.

Not that I expect anyone to admit this here, even if it were the case. It's just something I was mulling over when I asked a few gamers who happen to be female what they thought of this issue and they thought, without exception, that the entire controversy is moronic. If I may clarify, the controversy over tropes was moronic. We all agreed that the trolling goes too far in these cases.

And yeah, take the Men's Rights somewhere else.

 Monster Rain wrote:
the type of person who feels that they are a member of a persecuted class , race, gender, etc tend to view members of their group that disagree with their extremist positions

I see what you did there: You're saying the position that someone is "a member of a persecuted class, race, gender, etc" is extremist. And this is reinforced/proven by the fact that not all women care about the portrayal of female characters in video games?

 Manchu wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:
the type of person who feels that they are a member of a persecuted class , race, gender, etc tend to view members of their group that disagree with their extremist positions

I see what you did there: You're saying the position that someone is "a member of a persecuted class, race, gender, etc" is extremist. And this is reinforced/proven by the fact that not all women care about the portrayal of female characters in video games?

Not at all, dude.

Not everyone who thinks this is a problem is an extremist. I disagree with you somewhat, but I don't think you are an extremist. I'm referring only to people who fit that description, and not attempting to paint anyone with that brush who doesn't.

But with that said, why do you specifically think that some women don't find this an issue? Forget I even used the word "extremist".

Are you saying Anita Sarkeesian is an extremist?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Monster Rain wrote:
But with that said, why do you specifically think that some women don't find this an issue?

I suspect it has more to do with case-by-case circumstances than any global issue. But to the extent that there is a global issue, I think it has to do with most people -- even people who enjoy playing video games -- not thinking that video games are very important in a cultural sense.

Which is not an indication that it is a topic that should be ignored, despite the insinuation of various posts in this thread.

In regard to female leads in video games: does anyone still remember Beyond Good and Evil? It was an outstanding game with a strong female lead, actually the best I can think of right now.

Jade was neither a "Where is my hero who saves me?" nor a "I AM SO BADASS BROS" type of girl, she just seemed...average, natural. She did her best to save her friends, but not just to show that she's badass, she really seemed like a credible, complex character. I liked the game's message of there not being a single (wo)man being able to change things, but that a single person can make a change that inspires a lot of people. Oh, and no f-ing giant boobs -__-

I can only recommend the game to everyone, it's awesome.

Anita isn't an extremist...she just knows how to make a good profit.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Anita isn't an extremist...she just knows how to make a good profit.

I don't think she's any less sincere for hitting six figures on her KS. After all, the video is up. It's well thought out and clearly stated in argument, respectful in tone (in undoubted anticipation of tone argument), and has good production qualities. Besides, her voice exists in a market where profit and visibility are coterminous and certainly not mutually exclusive.

 Manchu wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Anita isn't an extremist...she just knows how to make a good profit.

I don't think she's any less sincere for hitting six figures on her KS. After all, the video is up. It's well thought out and clearly stated in argument, respectful in tone (in undoubted anticipation of tone argument), and has good production qualities. Besides, her voice exists in a market where profit and visibility are coterminous and certainly not mutually exclusive.

I wasn't negative about it. She just markets her stuff well. Pull of videos that might backlash onto you, force all negative comments to be made in a single video, manually select comments on YouTube that contain sexual insults (to back up your points) etc. She literally turns gak(storm) into gold

The content of her videos are certainly debatable and she obviously skips a few points, but alas, that's how everyone argues. Her videos are good for people who did not read / hear about the issue a lot before, but then continue to do their own research. People who already researched info on the subject will get no new info - it's the same you already known presented by an attractive female host. I don't like her body language though, she appears to slightly act a lot.

Yes, Beyond Good and Evil was a lovely game.

~

I'll bring up one reason some women "don't find it an issue": because there's immense pressure to "not find it an issue."

 Sigvatr wrote:
She literally turns gak(storm) into gold

You might say that's feminist marketing. If you can turn being called a slut whore who should die from rape into funding for your work raising the issue of pervasive misogyny then ... you're doing it right.

 Sigvatr wrote:
she obviously skips a few points

TBF, we have only heard part 1.

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
because there's immense pressure to "not find it an issue."

I think the same can be said about any serious consideration of video games so in this instance there is a compound/multi-valent/whatever pressure.

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Yes, Beyond Good and Evil was a lovely game.

~

I'll bring up one reason some women "don't find it an issue": because there's immense pressure to "not find it an issue."

Actually I'd disagree (EDIT: Actually no, I agree, I just want to clarify what I think the pressure is). I'd think most women don't find it an issue because culturally, they are indoctrinated like most us into the ideal of what a woman is. They don't see a problem with it because our culture says there isn't one. Group think at work.

She has some holes in her argumentation, but that's just natural as, for the most part, video games is a commercial sector and has to produce for the target audience, which is, for the largest part, men and she comes from a very ethics-based background which cannot be fully applied to capitalism. Her points are well thought-out, no doubt, it's just that people should not expect or treat them like fully objective, dead-end arguments / points.

E.g. yes, she's called a slut, whore etc. but so is everyone who says anything about any controversial issue on any topic, not only video games. Anyone who ever played MOBAs knows what your average gamer has to face. You don't get flamed because you're a woman, you get flamed because you're an enemy in a competitive gaming enviroment. There's no difference between "I hope you get raped" and "I hope you get your duck cut off". It's just an expression of frustration / anger.

 Manchu wrote:

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
because there's immense pressure to "not find it an issue."

I think the same can be said about any serious consideration of video games so in this instance there is a compound pressure.

That's possible. I've certainly seen non-feminist critiques of video games, even very well thought-out and presented, get attacked furiously. In those cases, I suspect a lot of it comes down to some people having difficulty separating criticism of the things they like from themselves.