Monster Rain wrote:
You make too many assumptions in your assessment

 Monster Rain wrote:
At any rate, this conversation has been highly diverting.

 Monster Rain wrote:
You make too many assumptions in your assessment, Manchu.

 Manchu wrote:
Yeah, Elizabeth is a worthy successor to Alyx Vance. I have no doubt she will be as beloved of both male and female gamers in years to come as Alyx.

 Melissia wrote:
Sadly, Bioshock: Infinite, while a good step in the right direction, is still from my understanding kind of perpetuating the problem. She is the "emotional center" of the game, but not the person whose decisions are important to the game-- that's Mr. Gundude's part to play.

Thus, the male lead does stuff, while the female lead sort if sits there and feels stuff.

Also, before anyone bitches, keep in mind, that despite this criticism I still believe that it will likely be one of the best games released in the past few years and plan on getting it as soon as I overhaul my aging processor (which hopefully will be pretty soon). Seriously, learn to understand that one can enjoy something while still criticizing it.

 Melissia wrote:
See the post above.

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:
At any rate, this conversation has been highly diverting.

I'm sure the women in the thread are glad that our deeply personal issues and suffering were entertaining enough for you.

Also, that treating important issues as your personal entertainment isn't in itself problematic or messed up at all.

 Bromsy wrote:

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:
At any rate, this conversation has been highly diverting.

I'm sure the women in the thread are glad that our deeply personal issues and suffering were entertaining enough for you.

Also, that treating important issues as your personal entertainment isn't in itself problematic or messed up at all.

I wouldn't say it's particularly messed up to not care about issues that are deeply important to complete strangers. That's actually pretty normal, and at least he was up front about not caring. I'd rather have honesty than false sympathy.

 Melissia wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:
At any rate, this conversation has been highly diverting.

I'm sure the women in the thread are glad that our deeply personal issues and suffering were entertaining enough for you.

Also, that treating important issues as your personal entertainment isn't in itself problematic or messed up at all.

I wouldn't say it's particularly messed up to not care about issues that are deeply important to complete strangers. That's actually pretty normal, and at least he was up front about not caring. I'd rather have honesty than false sympathy.

There's a difference between finding apathy at the suffering of others, and finding amusement
at the suffering of others.

 Melissia wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
You don't get flamed because you're a woman

Scientific research says otherwise. Women are three times more likely to be flamed than men-- simply for having a female voice.

The study has been linked to and mentioned numerous times. "Communication in multiplayer gaming: Examining player responses to gender cues" by Jeffrey H. Kuznekoff and Lindsey M. Rose.

* The Lara Phenomenon: Powerful Female Characters in Video Games

* College Students Video Game Participation and Perceptions: Gender Differences and Implications

* Killing for Girls: Predation Play and Female Empowerment

* The Effects of Pathological Gaming on Aggressive Behavior

* Video Game Violence and the Female Game Player: Self- and Opponent Gender Effects on Presence and Aggressive Thoughts

* Gender Stereotypes, Aggression, and Computer Games: An Online Survey of Women

If Meaghan Marie’s recent post about the sexism she’s encountered in the games industry was at all shocking to you, you either don’t work in the games industry or you’ve had your head up your ass. I applaud her for writing it—it took guts. But she’s just shedding light on attitudes and practices that are business as usual in the industry.



Lots of people read and commented on the post. It created a bubble of discussion that seemed to be beneficial. Then I saw this picture from one of the parties at the Game Developers Conference.



A woman posted it and defended it in comments. This is not to call out this prominent female in the industry because I like her and her involvement in games has done far more good than harm for women. I was taken aback because her caption wasn’t one of disbelief or disgust it was just “oh look.” As if she doesn’t even see the sexism anymore.

Here’s the thing. If you want to survive or thrive in the industry as a woman you could fight this gak every day of your life and never make a dent in it. All you’d do is destroy your own career. If you want to get along you either stop seeing it or you become complicit.

Sexism is rampant in the games industry. How it compares to other industries I couldn’t say. I’ve only ever been in games, and I’ve been in it for 18 years. The sexism I want to talk about is that within the industry itself. Not the fan communities and not the in-game experience though those are without doubt unfriendly places for women.

How can I begin to tell you what it’s like to work in a business that treats you like a curiosity and a plaything? Which anecdotal nuggets can I bust out to illustrate my point? I have 18 years of incidents to draw from. Should I go for shock value and tell you about the time a coworker asked me into his office to proofread a document and whipped his dick out? Naw, that was a one-off. Except that he showed his dick to me on several subsequent occasions. He thought it was funny. I didn’t report him to HR or do anything about it. I told a couple female coworkers and they thought it was funny. Weird, but nothing to get worked up about.

Or how about the time my manager thought it would be amusing to close out one of my Inside Xbox videos with audio of me pretending to have sex in the shower with a video game character? Did I feel uncomfortable? Yes. Did I protest? No.

Other things that barely even made a ripple on the radar: I wore a pendant with a “D” on it (My husband’s first initial). First co-worker “What’s the D for?” Second co-worker “Cup size.” And I laughed.

I laughed when I caught game studio executives taking pictures down my shirt. I laughed when I caught a co-worker at my company looking up my skirt on the stairs. I laughed and found an excuse to change the subject when co-workers instant messaged me with detailed accounts of the kind of sex they wanted to have with me.

I don’t go to GDC anymore, but I confess that when I did, one of my roles there was to get women to attend the party that my employer threw. To try to skew the sausage-fest male female ratio to more attractive (for male developers and publishers) levels. They wanted me to bring hot chicks. Eye candy. So the devs would have something pretty to look at and flirt with. And I did it. Year after year. No, I wasn’t Heidi Fleiss, but I participated in making those women objects.

Why did I do that? For my personal gain. I liked going to GDC. And if I kept bringing boobs to the party, I kept getting to go.

Why did I laugh off the upskirt pics, the ‘nice tits, can I touch them’ comments, the random ‘suck my cock’ text messages from industry dudes I barely knew? I’m not entirely sure. Part of it was the attention. Everyone likes attention. And maybe the gross stuff was the price to pay for the nice stuff. And yes there was nice stuff. Lots of flattery and free drinks and dinners and tickets to stuff and trips. My end of it was to bring the chicks, wear short skirts, smile a lot, and laugh it off when some drunk got grabby or, in one instance, shouted across a party at the top of his lungs “Trixie! I’m going to have sex with you tonight!” Note: He did not.

Why didn’t I report the dick dangler, the coworker who took upskirt photos of me on a business trip, or the exec who hinted I’d be safe from the next round of layoffs if I put out? Why didn’t I have a partner developer thrown out of a party when he shoved his tongue down my throat? Why didn’t I call out every ass-grabbing, talk to my tits, sexist gak?

Because I was afraid of being “that woman.” The once that the internet jumps all over. I knew my career was fethed the minute I went through that door, so I chose silence and the status quo. I was a coward and I didn’t even attempt to make things better for myself or any other woman trying to do their thing in the games industry.

I was absolutely complicit in the way I was treated because I kept holding up my end of the bargain. I got to hang out in the boy’s clubhouse because I showed some skin, laughed at their jokes and didn’t get too worked up if they pinched my ass.

So I’m sorry for that. I apologize to every woman who comes after me that finds gak like this still happening.

To women who actually have the ovaries to stand up and do something about it, like Brenda Romero: You have my utmost respect and admiration.

Last week, the Penny Arcade Report interviewed Jean-Max Morris, creative director of the upcoming female-led game Remember Me. After going into the game’s cyberpunk roots, Morris discussed the publishers who wanted nothing to do with a female protagonist. “We don’t want to publish it because that’s not going to succeed,” he paraphrased. “You can’t have a female character in games. It has to be a male character, simple as that.”

As the article made the rounds, I couldn’t help but notice what gamers were getting excited about elsewhere. Tomb Raider had just slipped to number two in the UK sales charts, after two weeks at number one. StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm had already sold 1.1 million copies in its first two days. Indie developer Supergiant Games, the folks behind Bastion, announced their new action RPG, Transistor, which features a leading lady. Their booth enjoyed two hour lines at PAX all weekend. I’m told that the lines for Remember Me were comparable.

I don’t think it’s gamers who have a problem with female protagonists.


That disconnect is what’s been bugging me the most about that article, more than all the girls-have-cooties implications. I read these blanket statements about how male gamers are supposedly allergic to female protagonists, and it doesn’t mesh with my impressions of the gamer community at large. I’m not even talking about stances on gender issues here. I’m talking about why people buy the games that they do. I have a bias in this, I know, but even so, I can’t shake the feeling that the publishers who say these things are failing to understand why gamers actually play.

There are two components to my thinking on this — how I go about playing, and how the guys I know go about playing (spoiler: they’re basically the same thing). I’ll start with myself, even though I’m not the sort of player being considered by these publishers. My purchasing habits strike me as pretty standard for a long-time gamer. I play shooters, RPGs, action games, and anything else that tickles my fancy. My carefully planned monthly budget includes a portion for games. I preorder new titles. I buy DLC. Take away my gender, and I’m exactly the sort of gamer the industry wants.

I developed these habits despite a lifetime of playing heroes that, more often than not, don’t look like me. A male protagonist does not stop me from playing. A male protagonist does not prevent me from developing an emotional attachment to his character. Do I gravitate more toward female protagonists, when they’re available? Yes, if I’m interested in the game itself as well. But will I turn away from an enticing game just because I can’t play as my gender? Of course not. What draws me to a game above all else, regardless of whose story it is, regardless of if there are even any women in the game at all, is whether or not it looks fun. I may feel more at home with a female protagonist, but I’ve got no problem connecting to a hero with a beard and a gravely voice. Gents, correct me if I’m wrong, but seeing as how we’re all human beings here, I imagine that for the most part, you and I react to differently-gendered protagonists in much the same way.

But okay, I’m not the target audience. Perhaps my experiences are moot. I obviously can’t speak directly to what it’s like to be a male gamer, but for what it’s worth, I have spent the better part of my life interacting and socializing with them. We like the same sorts of games. We play with equal enthusiasm. We talk about talent trees and boss fights and weapon upgrades. We sit and watch E3 together. We send each other articles on game releases and industry news. And not all of the male gamers I’ve known or even befriended have shared my views on gender portrayal. I’ve debated these things plenty with people I’ve gamed with. I recall being part of a group that got in a somewhat heated squabble over the Jennifer Hepler debacle before we all sat down and played Descent together. Our opinions on such topics may differ, but set them aside, and we’re buying the same games, and playing in the same way. From a gameplay standpoint, we’ve got the important stuff in common.

So let’s talk gamers in general. You can split us into two groups: those who are drawn to game mechanics, and those who are drawn to story (and yes, there’s a lot of crossover between the two). For those who are keen on mechanics, the protagonist doesn’t matter much. The setting and the story may affect how devoted they become to the game, but these players can and will overlook just about anything if they love the mechanics. The guys of this sort that I’ve played with have no qualms about choosing a female character, so long as her abilities are what they’re after. They’re far more concerned with class than gender.

A story-focused gamer, however, is looking for one of two things: a good story about someone else, or a story in which they can be the star. The latter hinges upon character customization, which nowadays usually means variable gender protagonists. Everybody wins. But for gamers who are happy to play as a pre-defined character, what they don’t want is the same story they’ve seen a dozen times before. They want to experience something new. Otherwise, what’s the point? You can only go through the same narrative so many times before you get bored. These players won’t care what the protagonist’s gender is, so long as the story is engaging.

If we’re talking about courting core gamers (I dislike that term, but there it is), protagonist gender seems like a non-issue. I keep thinking back to Transistor, a game helmed by a dainty lady with a buster sword. The people at PAX weren’t lined up for her, or despite her. They were lined up because Supergiant Games makes great stuff, and because Transistor looks awesome. I’ll confess, seeing that the game had a female protagonist was a side bonus for me. You know what I was primarily excited over? Combat that allows you to stop time and plan out attacks. I had already started digging into that cake before I appreciated the icing. I think a lot of gamers go about choosing games in the same way. Again, I can’t speak for the guys out there, but I’d be very surprised to meet a male gamer who turned up his nose at a combat system that appealed to him solely because he had to play a female character. That seems like an uncommon mindset.

But what if these publishers aren’t talking about core gamers? What if the concern here is the untapped market? Appealing to non-gamers is indeed a consideration you see throughout the industry (for better or for worse). This has been said by others many times before, but if the goal is to interest as many new gamers as possible, how does it make sense to focus only on straight white men between the ages of 18 and 25 (not to mention, how insulting is it to imply that such people are incapable of relating to anyone other than themselves)? And I may be off base with this, but I tend to think that someone who has never bought a game before is probably not going to start with a new IP. They’re going to pick something that they’ve heard of, something recommended by a friend who already plays it. A gamer. A gamer who will be recommending the game for its mechanics, or its story.

I am sure there are some men out there who might be put off by a female protagonist, just as there are women who might feel similarly toward male protagonists, but in my experience, this just isn’t the case for most. Give a gamer — of any gender — a good game with a solid story and fun mechanics, and we’re happy. (That’s not to say that character gender doesn’t matter at all. That’s a whole ‘nother article.)

And as for those hypothetical men who would feel “awkward” about seeing a female protagonist “kiss another dude” — okay, putting aside how immature that notion is, I feel compelled to note that games make me feel awkward all the time. Every time a game puts me in skimpy chainmail without offering an alternative, every time the women in the game are only there to be rescued or ogled, every time a game imparts the message that women are weak or vapid or just not good enough, I am left feeling awkward. And yet, I love games anyway. I’m still here, going bleary-eyed over strategy guides and handing over my hard-earned cash. If I can remain this loyal after the onslaught of awkward that games have put me through, then trust me. The dudes will be fine.

Christa Charter wrote:Why did I do that? For my personal gain. [...] So I’m sorry for that. I apologize to every woman who comes after me that finds gak like this still happening.

When a young woman's nude body is discovered on the Xenon game company's corporate campus, community manager Lexy Cooper gets an early morning call from her uncle, homicide detective Mike Malick, to ID the corpse. As Malick investigates the crime, Lexy works the case from inside Xenon and discovers more about the seedy underbelly of the games industry than she ever wanted to know.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
You don't get flamed because you're a woman

Scientific research says otherwise. Women are three times more likely to be flamed than men-- simply for having a female voice.

The study has been linked to and mentioned numerous times. "Communication in multiplayer gaming: Examining player responses to gender cues" by Jeffrey H. Kuznekoff and Lindsey M. Rose.

I totally missed this reference. I am not familiar with the article, so only got the abstract; I'd appreciate if you could somehow give me the entire study, PM me for e-mail.

I do appreciate the inclusion of scientific articles. We need to be precise though. You used the article to prove that women get flamed more often than men in video games. This is a wrong conclusion. The article used one specific game, Halo 3 and did not cross-reference any other games. The only logical conclusion you can make with this particular article is that in Halo 3, women get flamed more often than men. If you want to be really precise, we'd need more information than just the abstract - info on subjects, methods, means etc.


...
...
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 Manchu wrote:

Christa Charter wrote:Why did I do that? For my personal gain. [...] So I’m sorry for that. I apologize to every woman who comes after me that finds gak like this still happening.

Christa Charter's new book:

http://trixie360.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/coverfinalx.jpg?w=1563&h=2500

When a young woman's nude body is discovered on the Xenon game company's corporate campus, community manager Lexy Cooper gets an early morning call from her uncle, homicide detective Mike Malick, to ID the corpse. As Malick investigates the crime, Lexy works the case from inside Xenon and discovers more about the seedy underbelly of the games industry than she ever wanted to know.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00A1RF8U4/ref=cm_sw_su_dp

 Manchu wrote:
A great example of the tension she's writing about -- but a sad betrayal of what little conviction she mustered in writing it.

 Melissia wrote:
Mind you I'm not saying the concept is perfect by any means, but it IS intended to explore the idea of sexism and seediness in the gaming industry, so having a few sexist tropes displayed in the story is not necessary contradictory to the message being delivered.

 Manchu wrote:
The cover of that book is T&A -- well, not so much A as extremely skanky short school girl uniform skirt.