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 Melissia wrote:
You're conflating Manchu's argument with mine. If you have beef with Manchu's argument, bug Manchu

I asked for your thoughts on the matter, I didn't reply to Manchu. Now who is conflating and distorting?

 Melissia wrote:
You quoted my words and then proceeded to ignore them and make up an argument entirely unrelated to the words that were quoted. That is pretty much the definition of a strawman argument, and a perfect example of distortion.

I quoted your exact words and I responded to the argument that you made, as can be seen clearly from your own words. No matter how much you may wish it there is no distortion on my part.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
I asked for your thoughts on the matter

I gave them. It is not my problem that you haven't bothered reading them.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
I responded to the argument that you made, as can be seen clearly from your own words

No, you did not.

You made the assertion that this was my argument:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
two well known female figures in the industry have come out and publicly decried the sexism in the industry, with some very recent examples, [that shows] that the cultural baggage of which you speak has been resolved

This is not my argument. It has never been my argument. In responding to this assertion, you are not responding to me.

I'm sorry, I missed your response as I was typing my own. In what way do you feel that "it was inappropriate and a little tasteless."?

 Melissia wrote:
No, you did not. You made the assertion that this was my argument:

You mean that the words that you posted here for all to see don't mean what they say? Curious.

 Melissia wrote:
This is not my argument. It has never been my argument. It is nothing more than an ass-pull.

My argument was very clearly that the market was not there and was not being invested in because it was not viable. Your argument was that female lead games were not getting funded or marketed because of "cultural baggage", you even crassly likened it to the racism that blacks suffered in America. I have quoted your own words in full. If there is an issue with what they say it is because of you and how you expressed your argument. So please take your frustration out on the appropriate source.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
I'm sorry, I missed your response as I was typing my own. In what way do you feel that "it was inappropriate and a little tasteless."?

I responded to it way before htis.

To repeat what I said before:

 Melissia wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I likewise wish that was more professionally dressed given the subject matter (I don't exactly see many companies accepting that kind of dress while on the job...)
[...]
In this case, yes, I think the cover is tasteless, but I don't necessarily find anything wrong with the actual subject matter as presented by the summary.

tl;dr, I believe she should be dressed more professionally given the job that she is described as having in the novel. Especially when on the clock, as is apparent in the description. That outfit is okay for casual dress, partying, dancing, or just being comfortable, sure, but it is not appropriate work attire.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Your argument was that female lead games were not getting funded or marketed because of "cultural baggage", you even crassly likened it to the racism that blacks suffered in America.

Yes, I did.

I never, however, said that a few people speaking up means that the problem was suddenly magically resolved.

That was your ass-pull. You said that. Not me-- you. Do not try to claim that I said it. That would be lying.

 Melissia wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I likewise wish that was more professionally dressed given the subject matter (I don't exactly see many companies accepting that kind of dress while on the job...)
[...]
In this case, yes, I think the cover is tasteless, but I don't necessarily find anything wrong with the actual subject matter as presented by the summary. tl;dr, I believe she should be dressed more professionally given the job that she is described as having in the novel. Especially when on the clock, as is apparent in the description. That outfit is okay for casual dress, partying, dancing, or just being comfortable, sure, but it is not appropriate work attire

But that doesn't answer the question I asked - are they exploiting the fictional female character, or are they exploiting the actual male customer who buys the product in no small part because of the image?

 Melissia wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Your argument was that female lead games were not getting funded or marketed because of "cultural baggage", you even crassly likened it to the racism that blacks suffered in America.

Yes, I did.

I never, however, said that a few people speaking up means that the problem was suddenly magically resolved.

That was your ass-pull. You said that. Not me-- you. Do not try to claim that I said it. That would be lying.

Not once did I claim that two people speaking out against the industry resolved the problem. Far from it. In fact I was very clear that " two very prominent female members of the games industry (including the former Xbox Community Manager) have come out with details of the type of sexism still prevalent in the industry", and that there "hasn't been a cultural shift, judging by the statements made by several people involved in the games industry", and that " the "societal biases" and "cultural baggage" that you speak of are still present".
Now, on reading that it looks like you are the one who is distorting what I have said, but I won't do you the dis-service of accusing you of lying

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
But that doesn't answer the question I asked - are they exploiting the fictional female character, or are they exploiting the actual male customer who buys the product in no small part because of the image?

False dichotomy. I never made the assertion that it was exploitative.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Not once did I claim that two people speaking out against the industry resolved the problem.

You said that was my argument. It was most certainly not mine. The only person who made that assertion was you, therefor, it was your argument.

 Melissia wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
But that doesn't answer the question I asked - are they exploiting the fictional female character, or are they exploiting the actual male customer who buys the product in no small part because of the image?

False dichotomy. I never made the assertion that it was exploitative.

I never claimed that you made that assertion. It seems that you are making quite a habit of distorting my words to hear what you want to say, rather than what they do say. I'll take it then that you're just unwilling or unable to answer an honest question seeing as you can't help but distort my words.

 Melissia wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Not once did I claim that two people speaking out against the industry resolved the problem.

You said that was my argument. It was not an argument I made-- it was one that you made up out of thin air. Ergo, it was your argument, not mine.

What you are claiming is absolutely false, as I have already shown is my quote above. I did not make that argument, nor did I ascribe it to you. What I said was that the experiences of these two women showed that the culture had not changed. How you got the opposite of this is unclear. So unless you're going to provide a quote were I did say that I would appreciate a retraction and an apology.

If you don't like the fact that the assertion which you made up out of whole cloth-- which you, specifically you and no one else, added to your post, and which no one else added to theirs-- is being attributed to you, you are free to disown it and stop claiming that it belongs to people who have never made the argument.

Until then, it is your argument. It certainly is not mine, as I have said over and over again.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
But that doesn't answer the question I asked - are they exploiting the fictional female character, or are they exploiting the actual male customer who buys the product in no small part because of the image?

False dichotomy. I never made the assertion that it was exploitative.

I never claimed that you made that assertion.

Then stop expecting me to respond for someone else's argument.

Melissa, I'd appreciate an honest response to what I've posted instead of trying to divert and distract.

You've accused me of making arguments that I haven't made. I've given quotes to support that you're wrong and you are distorting or misreading what I've said. I've done so politely and without resorting to swearing at you. We can have an honest and mature discussion, and you can substantiate the outlandish claims that you have made. Or you can continue being dishonest in your dealings with me in this thread as evidenced by your inability to produce any evidence to back up your claims, or answer honest questions.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Melissa, I'd appreciate an honest response

You've been getting honest responses. It is not my fault that you refuse to actually read them.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
You've accused me of making arguments that I haven't made.

If you're going to get mad at anyone for me calling you out on your strawman bullgak, get mad at yourself.

I have repeatedly stated that I have never argued this assertion:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
two well known female figures in the industry have come out and publicly decried the sexism in the industry, with some very recent examples, [that shows] that the cultural baggage of which you speak has been resolved

And no matter how many times you try to claim that this is my argument, it is not.

The only one who has made that assertion is you. I certainly didn't make it. I can't find anyone in this thread that has made it-- except for you Therefor, it is your argument.

 Melissia wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
two well known female figures in the industry have come out and publicly decried the sexism in the industry, with some very recent examples, [that shows] that the cultural baggage of which you speak has been resolved

And no matter how many times you try to claim that this is my argument, it is not.

The only one who has made that assertion is you. I certainly didn't make it. I can't find anyone in this thread that has made it-- except for you Therefor, it is your argument.

Ok, hopefully we can get this resolved once and for all. Here is the quote -

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Now given that two well known female figures in the industry have come out and publicly decried the sexism in the industry, with some very recent examples, does that show that the cultural baggage of which you speak has been resolved (your argument)? Or does it mean that they are responding to market changes (my argument)?

Notice how you have omitted the question and edited my words so that they have a different meaning. I also gave you the quotes from you that clearly said that the issues about lack of females in games was because of cultural baggage. You have engaged in a gross distortion of what I have said and continued to distort my words because you couldn't form any sort of coherent argument. Then you have had the audacity to claim that I am the one distorting words whenever I have given full an unedited quotes to back up my claims.

Disgraceful

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Notice how you have omitted the question and edited my words so that they have a different meaning

I never made the assertion that speaking out against the cultural baggage would magically and instantly resolve the problem. Stop making gak up and claiming I said it.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Disgraceful

Yes, your post is disgraceful and you should be ashamed.

 Melissia wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Notice how you have omitted the question and edited my words so that they have a different meaning

I never made the assertion that speaking out against the cultural baggage would magically and instantly resolve the problem. Stop making gak up and claiming I said it.

I never made that argument, but lo and behold you keep trying to claim that I have.

 Melissia wrote:
Yes, your post is disgraceful and you should be ashamed.

One of us has responded with facts and quotes to back up his position. The other has mis-quoted, distorted and swore at the other to make her point. Please, keep digging.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
I never made that argument, but lo and behold you keep trying to claim that I have.

Listen (for once)...

The entire purpose of speaking out about the problem is to bring it to the public consciousness-- if no one is aware of the problem, it ain't gonna fix itself. It'll just keep perpetuating itself. That's the entire reason behind Sarkesian's video, actually-- to show the problem that exists with the overuse of women as damsels in distress over all other roles. Through bringing up that the problem exists in the first place, a discussion can be had about why it exists, if it should be solved, and if so, how should it be solved.

Speaking out against the problem is not, however, a one-step solution to remove the problem. I have never claimed that it is. No one in this thread has ever claimed that it is. The only post where any part of it is claiming that it is... is your post. It is thus YOUR argument-- a strawman argument constructed by you.

 Melissia wrote:
Listen (for once)...

The entire purpose of speaking out about the problem is to bring it to the public consciousness-- if no one is aware of the problem, it ain't gonna fix itself. It'll just keep perpetuating itself. That's the entire reason behind Sarkesian's video, actually-- to show the problem that exists with the overuse of women as damsels in distress over all other roles. Through bringing up that the problem exists in the first place, a discussion can be had about why it exists, if it should be solved, and if so, how should it be solved.

Speaking out against the problem is not, however, a one-step solution to remove the problem. I have never claimed that it is. No one in this thread has ever claimed that it is. The only post where any part of it is claiming that it is... is your post. It is thus YOUR argument-- a strawman argument constructed by you.

That is not my argument, nor has it been. You are asking me to listen and then trying to twist my words to suit your agenda. I never said that speaking out against sexism would make it go away (were it that easy we wouldn't have had the need for a discussion).
I said that the industry will follow the market and change when it does. You said,

Melissia wrote:I provided evidence that they attempt to shut down games with female leads or force the developers to change the lead to male, and made assertions to that effect. That does not necessarily indicate active misogyny. It DOES indicate a flawed set of cultural baggage that needs to be gotten rid of.

Further proof (as if it was needed) that you are distorting my words and assigning a strawman argument to me that I have not made.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
That is not my argument

It's certainly not mine.

The only one to post this argument:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Now given that two well known female figures in the industry have come out and publicly decried the sexism in the industry, with some very recent examples, does that show that the cultural baggage of which you speak has been resolved (your argument)?

Is you.

You. Just you. Only you. No one else. You. Whether you're making the argument honestly or just as a strawman or out of pure ignorance, you're still the only one to make it.

 Melissia wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
That is not my argument

It's certainly not mine.

The only one to post this argument:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Now given that two well known female figures in the industry have come out and publicly decried the sexism in the industry, with some very recent examples, does that show that the cultural baggage of which you speak has been resolved (your argument)?

Is you.

You. Just you. Only you. No one else. You. Whether you're making the argument honestly or just as a strawman or out of pure ignorance, you're still the only one to make it.

So its not your argument, you've never said anything about addresseding "cultural baggage" that I could have responded to?
So you didn't post;

Melissia wrote:I provided evidence that they attempt to shut down games with female leads or force the developers to change the lead to male, and made assertions to that effect. That does not necessarily indicate active misogyny. It DOES indicate a flawed set of cultural baggage that needs to be gotten rid of.

You never spoke of "cultural baggage that needs to be gotten rid of"? Are you seriously trying to tell me and everyone reading this that you didn't say those words or that somehow I've distorted what you clearly said?

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
So its not your argument, you've never said anything about addresseding "cultural baggage" that I could have responded to?

I did talk about cultural baggage.

I did not, however, say that it was anywhere close to being resolved, like you continue to claim that I did despite the by now two or three PAGES of me saying otherwise and not a single fething drop of proof provided by you.

So stop claiming I said it. Or are you just trolling?

 Melissia wrote:
I did not, however, say that it was anywhere close to being resolved, like you continue to claim that I did despite the by now two or three PAGES of me saying otherwise and not a single fething drop of proof provided by you.

I didn't claim that. I asked you if it had been resolved. Then rather than answer the question that I did ask you've embarked on a long and pointless campaign to distort my words, claim that you never posted the words that you did and tried to call me a liar.

If you're going to have the audacity to accuse anyone in this thread of trolling I would strongly suggest you first try looking in the mirror.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
I asked you if it had been resolved.

You didn't ask anything. You outright STATED that it was my argument that said cultural baggage been resolved.

It has not been resolved. It's not even close. That was never my argument. It still needs to be spoken out against, and it still needs to have actions taken against it from within the companies that are perpetuating it.

edit: removed off topic portions.

 Melissia wrote:
You didn't ask anything. You outright STATED that it was my argument that said cultural baggage been resolved.

So this isn't a question?

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Now given that two well known female figures in the industry have come out and publicly decried the sexism in the industry, with some very recent examples, does that show that the cultural baggage of which you speak has been resolved?

I think its safe to say that, once again, you're doing a fine job of attempting to misrepresent what I've said then having the nerve to ask me if I'm trolling

 Melissia wrote:
I'm not accusing you of trolling. I'm saying that I'm considering the possibiltiy, given that you've gone on insisting I've made an argument that I didn't make for several pages now, without any proof of it-- with me directly contradicting you the enitre time.

You're right. Posting exact quotes of what you have said proves nothing, whereas mis-quoting me and swearing at me while posting passive aggressively obviously proves that I'm wrong
/sarcasm

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
So this isn't a question?

If you're going to complain about me supposedly not faithfully quoting your post (even though I did, my edits not taking any context out of it), then you would be best served by not doing it yourself.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Now given that two well known female figures in the industry have come out and publicly decried the sexism in the industry, with some very recent examples, does that show that the cultural baggage of which you speak has been resolved (your argument)?

You stated, at the end of the question, that his was "your argument", with "you" contextually referring to me.

But I never made that argument. Only you did.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Posting exact quotes of what you have said proves nothing, whereas mis-quoting me and swearing at me while posting passive aggressively obviously proves that I'm wrong
/sarcasm

You have never quoted anything that indicated that I believed that the cultural baggage I spoke of was resolved, or even hinting at such a belief. And you'd be hard pressed to considering I never have.

And I never misquoted you. You made the strawman argument, therefor it is your argument. If that pisses you off, stop making strawman arguments.

 Melissia wrote:
But I never made that argument. Only you did.

So you never said that "cultural baggage" needed resolved? You didn't post this then?

Melissia wrote:I provided evidence that they attempt to shut down games with female leads or force the developers to change the lead to male, and made assertions to that effect. That does not necessarily indicate active misogyny. It DOES indicate a flawed set of cultural baggage that needs to be gotten rid of.

You then went on to argue that it was this cultural baggage that was affecting investment in female lead games, and scoffed at my argument that the industry was only interested in a viable market.

 Melissia wrote:
And I never misquoted you. You made the strawman argument, therefor it is your argument. If that pisses you off, stop making strawman arguments.

Yes you have misquoted me, and distorted my words and tried to make me out to be a troll when you're the one twisting in the wind. The argument that you made is right above, plain as day to see. If anything is pissing me off its the fact that you've had to distort what I have said to try and make a point, which has only served to dig yourself into a hole and yet you keep digging rather than admit your error.


**And because you had to edit something you posted, yet again**

 Melissia wrote:
You have never quoted anything that indicated that I believed that the cultural baggage I spoke of was resolved, or even hinting at such a belief. And you'd be hard pressed to considering I never have.

Good. Because I never said that it had been resolved, or attributed such a sentiment to you. That's why I asked you had it been resolved in that quote that you have now reposted several times.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
So you never said that "cultural baggage" needed resolved?

Once again you use a strawman argument instead of actually responding to the post in question.

THis discussion is over. You are obviously not acting in good faith.

 Melissia wrote:
Once again you use a strawman argument instead of actually responding to the post in question.

THis discussion is over. You are obviously not acting in good faith.

I was responding to the post in question, especially when you try and deny that your words were in fact your words.

You have distorted my argument, quoted me out of context, swore, been passive aggressive this whole time, denied that the words that you posted are your own words and accused me of being a troll. Now you have the gall to say that I'm acting in bad faith when I have provided more than ample clarification and evidence to substantiate my points? This is almost beyond parody

Changing to something slightly cheerier.

I'm watching the live feed for tabletopday right now.





I don't know whether it's selection bias or whatever but for the 'store feeds' they are doing there are a LOT of female gamers being presented. - So there definitely is a market out there.

 Compel wrote:
Changing to something slightly cheerier.

I'm watching the live feed for tabletopday right now.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/user/geekandsundry?v=WdrXcikNdQU[/youtube]


I don't know whether it's selection bias or whatever but for the 'store feeds' they are doing there are a LOT of female gamers being presented. - So there definitely is a market out there.

Cool. Also the [Youtube] function requires tha it just be
[youtube]Http://youtube.com/watch?v=ViDeOcOdE[/youtube] to work, it doesn't work with user lists like that or playlists, IIRC.

Cheers!

The only people I know playing tabletop games are back home, I'm getting to see everything second hand on Facebook

Thread terminated. You folks broke your toy.