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 Griddlelol wrote:
All this random garbage is starting to make me feel like GW is underestimating the player's ability to make decisions.

In case you haven't noticed, that's GW's entire business model at this point.

For anyone comparing fantasy's magic to 40k psychic powers, I think several things need to be outlined for why this random mechanic works in fantasy.

1. In fantasy there are level 4 wizards giving you 4 chances to roll the power you would like so more often than not you can count on having the power you chose.

2. The spell lores in fantasy are much better balanced than the psychic disciplines, out of the lores available there is no best lore. Where in 40k divination is easily the best discipline where it is almost easily the very best choice for most armies.

3. In fantasy if you have multiple wizards then they can have no duplicate powers which can just about guarantee you having the power you were hoping for if you have 2 wizards rolling in the same lore. Which takes away some of the randomness.

All of these points combined cause the fantasy magic system to be better balanced and thought out than 40k's psychic system.

(Edited for Clarity)

 Amaraxis wrote:
See - as for a game becoming like other - sure - games like this evolve over time and if I am not willing to adapt, I will stop playing...

Or do this thing called house rules....within days, of 6th, people were already house/FLGS ruling that you pick your warlord trait...

It's a game...if you are not having fun, don't play and go back to D3....

And to answer lists being random - sure...works for me...

As for Eldar without Psykers - well, the point you are missing is THEY DON'T HAVE TO ROLL FOR POWERS!!!!! They can purchase them like normal (same as grey knights, who btw pay 5 per power). And as an aside - Eldar got BETTER with the powers (Divination Primis > Fortune)

I play the game to have fun...so they add randomness - so?
Are you going to complain about every rule that they come out with? Did you complain about the requirements on allies? What about FOC? Oh, FNP went to 5+...you mad?

I can understand not liking the change...but saying that the rules suck and you hate how they are doing it - there is MANY solutions for YOU to play 'non-competitively' with whatever rules you want....hell, you can go back to 5th ed and all the non-6th dexes....

In all honesty - I like the randomness - it tests my ability as a player to adjust to random chance. And like I said - if you don't like the way powers are done - don't use a psyker that needs to roll for them...play nids or GKs or something....

You play the game for fun. That's cool. I like that you do. I play the game for both fun and tournament play. I cannot house rule anything when I am in tournament play. Suggesting that we as a fan base should just houserule something would be fine if playing among friends only, but is meaningless when playing competitively.

The point about Eldar without Psykers was in your response to the OP. You told him he should just not use psykers. That is not a passable option if you are playing Eldar. As his origional concern was about the new 6th edition Eldar book, and how the powers will most likely be random. You say I'm missing the point because Eldar don't have to roll randomly for their powers. I'm not missing the point. Because the origional poster is talking about the next incarnation of the Eldar where they most likely WILL have to roll randomly for their powers. You are the one missing the point. The point being, the origional poster is worried that he will not be able to use a particularly expensive unit because there is no guarentee that he will get Fortune to keep them alive. This is a very valid concern. The unit costs a lot of points to field, and a lot of money to build.

Changing the Eldar to randomly choose their powers would be shooting himself in the foot if he cannot guarentee that Fortune happens on said unit. Advising him not to take psykers is silly as the whole unit in the origional post is made of nothing BUT psykers. And CANNOT function without them.

And to be clear, it is not randomness that is the problem. It is specifically choosing spells by randomness. That is the area of concern. Not Warlord Traits, not Mysterious Terrain, not anything else either. Just Psychic powers.

And don't be silly. What if Eldar are the only army the Origional Poster owns? Telling him to play something else if he doesn't like the rules as they are now written is also quite silly and to be honest, a little eliteist. Why should he? He has every right to come on here and voice his concerns. You have every right to disagree. But you do not have the right to tell him what to play if he doesn't like the way the chips fell.

 Macok wrote:

 Amaraxis wrote:
OK - a Couple points...

People who are whining about random powers - suck it up....I for one am completely fine with y opponent not taking all the perfect powers, basically handing him an auto-win....and honestly, it takes a ton of the fun out of a game when there is no strategy - it is just 'run the army exactly like this to win'.

Second - planning on what powers you could get SHOULD be a part of your army construction

Third - ok, so you don't get to pick - the other thing is that you are not stuck with a power that is worthless that you paid points for (awww...I am playing someone without vehicles...I am so glad I spent all those point on that Str10 AP 1 Heavy 1, Lance shot for that squad)....You are paying points for the level, yes - and you COULD roll a bad power - that is what Primas powers are for. If you don't like the Primas power - don't roll on that table.

Fourth - Like someone said, fantasy has been doing this for a long time - and they are mages who study magic and they only get a random X number.

Fifth - Warhammer 40K is not 'let's see who can throw around the most powerful psychic power and win'. It is a bunch of people (and daemons and monsters and aliens) running through the lud and shooting the frack out of each other.

And one more thing - if you don't like the random psychic powers - DONT TAKE A PSYKER!!! that simple. Spend your points elsewhere and take something 'assured'....like that plasma pistol....

I have seen someone at a tournament complain about the power he got through the whole game...i was surprised he didn't get punched.

Come on...this is a game...if you don't like the rules - don't play

1) Auto win from a powers? Could you name those and how exactly making them come in randomly makes them better? They are changing how psychic powers work, what direction should they go: "you may pick from 6 powers, all good, but useful in different conditions and priced appropriately" or "roll and get super powerful or totally crappy power"? You seem to thing the second one is a proper way to go.
2) You know what is better for planning? Knowing what you are choosing.
3) That point is just stupid. I'm not afraid to use that word. "That you are not stuck with a power that is worthless that you paid points for"? You still DO pay for the power but now you can't plan the way you could have when you had a wider choice. You still can be stuck with "power that is worthless that you paid points for". How is randomizing mitigate that? It does not. It does however create a situation where you get a power not suited for the rest of your army making "power that is worthless that you paid points for" a much higher chance.
4) If I wanted to play fantasy I would play fantasy. Secondly, the existence of this mechanic in a similar game does not make it a good mechanic.
5) Do we even play the same game? Psykers are so heavily lodged into the core concept of the game you can't just wave them away. Remove psykers and you're stuck with simplified IG against Tau and Necrons. No Emperor so no Primarchs and no SMs with IG not having warp travel, no Chaos, no Eldar, no Tyranids and no Orks.

And one more thing: So you are fine with a whole level of gameplay being gone or crippled? No friend of yours like psykers? Nobody you know have psyker models? How all this is a good thing? "Other have it worse so it's good"?

And yeah, people should not be discussing a game in a forum dedicated to discussing a game. Common sense so overrated.

And still - you bring up nothing that is valid to the main point of my argument:

IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT - DON'T PLAY!!!!!!!

There are plenty of other mini games out there that don't have the random effect. The thing that some people refuse to see:

1-This is THEIR game - they can do whate ever they want with it. Yes, people have the right to complain, but that is the route that they took. They do a LOT of things that we do not like (adding flyers, changes to our beloved units, still employing Matt Ward) - but this is the SIXTH incarnation of the rules...and as it looks: there is no stopping and with every edition - they don't listen to just the little guy - they do what they want.

2-They are not in the game business - they are in the MINI business. The random psychic powers makes people who were running psykers in the last edition may be looking to another model due to the new rule....so it looks like their business model is doing EXACTLY what it is meant to.

3-There is always other options. If they lose the market to other games like FoW or HordeMachine, then they may change....but even the people who don't like it are still buying pieces, still playing, and still on boards posting how they hate the change to the army THEY STILL PLAY!

Now, don't get me wrong - there is a lot of the changes that I may not be fond of (including random psychic powers) - but I take it as it is, roll with the punch, and keep playing until the next one comes out....

Oh - and as for Game winning abilities: Endurance, Iron Arm, Invisible FMC....and I can do it in TWO models....good luck taking that down. The chances of getting that kind of combo now is 1:216 (approx). Doesn't matter if they were 35 points a piece....That would be a +d3 S/T, FNP, IWND, Relentless, EW, Shroud, Stealth, Flying MC (plus the 5+ Invuln if it is a Daemon) with that makes enemies as WS1.....I am sorry, is there anyone out there who would not take it if they could....oh wait...that is what USED to happen...

 Amaraxis wrote:
And still - you bring up nothing that is valid to the main point of my argument:

IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT - DON'T PLAY!!!!!!!

That is the equivalent of: if your car has ugly spoiler, burn it and dump it!
I still like some aspects of the game, I still like the fluff, I still like miniatures and I still like hanging around and playing with my friends. I did however. have been playing significantly less than before all the "cinematic TM".

And in the end that main point of yours brings very little to the discussion. It's oversimplifying things, cuts any thoughts exchange and any opportunity to know how other fellow gamers feel about that specific case.

As for the OP, I guess Eldar random table is very probable. I really hope primaris power will be Doom. I would bet my money on that Guide won't be the primaris - too similar to Divination and may even be scrapped all together. Fortune is too powerful for auto pick and I would prefer it not being some boring witchfire.
There are rumors of seer councils being more powerful than individual seers. Those may have access to several, available at all times, powers.

Sandinistato wrote:
For anyone comparing fantasy's magic to 40k psychic powers, I think several things need to be outlined for why this random mechanic works in fantasy.

1. In fantasy there are level 4 wizards giving you 4 chances to roll the power you would like so more often than not you can count on having the power you chose.

2. The spell lores in fantasy are much better balanced than the psychic disciplines, out of the lores available there is no best lore. Where in 40k divination is easily the best discipline where it is almost easily the very best choice for most armies.

3. In fantasy if you have multiple wizards then they can have no duplicate powers which can just about guarantee you having the power you were hoping for if you have 2 wizards rolling in the same lore. Which takes away some of the randomness.

All of these points combined cause the fantasy magic system to be better balanced and thought out than 40k's psychic system.

(Edited for Clarity)

1. You can get upto Lv3 in 40k - that's a 50/50 shot at getting the power you want on said psyker.

2. Seriously?! The Lores of Shadow, Life & Light would like a word with you, while Death wants to be part of the cool club too. Shadow & Life especially are game-breakingly good - much moreso than Divination is in 40k.
Have you ever seen what HE's w/Lv4 Shadow wizard do to the likes of Ogres/VC/TK/Lizzies/Dwarfs? Or how brutal the previous Daemons book was with Bloodletter hordes backed up by MoS Tzheralds w/Life? Or VC Grave Guard under the effects of Light magic? (or rather, anything that can get it under the effects of Light magic!)

3. And 40k can have far more psykers on the table who are allowed to duplicate powers across the entire army, meaning you can have more of the key augments like the entirety of the Divination chart, or multiple MC's who could end up with Ironarm.

40k's new 'psychic phase' system is far more unblanaced currently than the Fantasy system, and that's really saying something.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
All this random garbage is starting to make me feel like GW is underestimating the player's ability to make decisions.

In case you haven't noticed, that's GW's entire business model at this point.

Yeah, it seems to be the new business model in 40k. I guess we'll have to live with it.

My point is that the Eldar Farseer is one of the best supporting units in the game and this is due to his/her psychic powers. Moreover, the unit that depends on the ability to individually choose psychic powers (here: fortune) like no other unit in 40k is the Seer Council. Without it, without rerolls of saves, it is dead and gone. An Eldar player running a Council cannot afford to roll for fortune and in 50% of the cases not to get it. So the Council will be left on the shelf because its too expensive when built correctly. Any other unit in the game is not so dependable on specific powers (Nids maybe with iron arm, SM with the gate or nullzone, SW).

It's expensive, but an eldar farseer can take 4 of the book psychic powers.

From the faq
Page 26 – Farseer, Psychic Powers.
Replace this entry with: “A Farseer is a Psyker (Mastery Level 1)
who must purchase between one and four of the Farseer
psychic powers as detailed on page 60 of Codex: Eldar.”

This gives a 2 in 3 chance to get the power you want.
Everytime I've spammed telepathy, I've gotten invisibility.

It's not guaranteed, but it's worked for me so far.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
Well, Psychic powers are so powerful that not guaranteeing them should be a norm.

For those armies that don't have any, that's the only way to make it fair for them.

Either that, or make it so that you can get 6 psychic powers for sure, but obviously will be super expensive.

No, it's poor game design.

First off, a lot of the powers are just terrible, that's why there's the average (or in the case of divination amazing) primaris power.

Secondly, instead of randomly generating special rules that are "so powerful" why not give options from 2 or 3 moderately powerful special rules? That would result in real choice by the player and tactical thinking. Instead of hurr durr roll to see if I get one the good ones, if not I'll take the mediocre one.

Edit: All this random garbage is starting to make me feel like GW is underestimating the player's ability to make decisions. It's as though fun is more important than engaging, which is demonstrably not true.

The only random bs that I don't like about is the Chaos Daemons codex, it's kinda unfair to them as it becomes hard to have things work the majority of time instead of just randomly rolling for gak.

Again, it is balance for non-Psychic Armies not poor game design.
The reason behind this is that I provide you an unstable method of obtaining these strong powers so that you won't rely on it to win.

I play Necrons, Dark Eldar and Tau, which none of the 3 have any psychic powers at all, if Psychic powers were consistent there would be no way of me to prevent specific psychic powers to happen.
In a random situation, I'd still have the chance that to miss to get "the" power that you need or screws me over the most.
Against Jaws of the Wolf/World(not sure what it is called), there absolutely nothing I can do when I'm playing Necrons besides the Dtw roll, and then everything dies if I fail.
Since the SW codex consistently gives them this, this essentially is a guarentee screw me over thing that they can use whenever I'm using Necrons.

We have absolutely no psychic defense or powers to fight against these things and hence I find it fair for them to be random so that you don't rely on getting that specific one that you need to auto-win.

Random Psychic Tables are awful for two big reasons:

1- Messes with army planning. My psyker meant to stay far away with a shooty unit now has a CC power! Amazing. so glad i brought him along. My BS 0 model rolled a shooty power! Now that's fun.

2- It makes the imbalance problem even worse, voiding the "at least it keeps people from doing OP combos!" argument fanboys use. With the primaris powers being so widely variable in usefulness, and access to disciplines being a big issue (with Pyro and Telekinesis being generally the bottom of the heap), it's very easy to abuse the system.

A competent company would either redesign the primaris powers, give full acces of all discipline sto all armies (and differentiate using their specific army book disciplines), or let you pick the first power and roll the others.

 Sephyr wrote:

Random Psychic Tables are awful for two big reasons:

1- Messes with army planning. My psyker meant to stay far away with a shooty unit now has a CC power! Amazing. so glad i brought him along. My BS 0 model rolled a shooty power! Now that's fun.

2- It makes the imbalance problem even worse, voiding the "at least it keeps people from doing OP combos!" argument fanboys use. With the primaris powers being so widely variable in usefulness, and access to disciplines being a big issue (with Pyro and Telekinesis being generally the bottom of the heap), it's very easy to abuse the system.

A competent company would either redesign the primaris powers, give full acces of all discipline sto all armies (and differentiate using their specific army book disciplines), or let you pick the first power and roll the others.

1. That's the whole point of random psychic powers, so that you don't rely on it.

2. They should have made the Primaris power a lower tier psychic ability.

Unless you can give all the armies a fair chance at defending against psychic powers then I find that it would be hugely annoying for non-psychic armies, since people can now tailor against them as they can choose according to you.

 Makutsu wrote:

1. That's the whole point of random psychic powers, so that you don't rely on it.

Except many people do rely on it, so it doesn't even work. Space Wolves and GK rely on Divination primaris to twin-link their already devastating firepower, and never have to fear not having access to the gambit unless facing Eldar runes. Meanwhile, my sorcerer casting his Biomancy primary has to pass a casting roll that can be messed with by Eldar runes and rune priests, then a Deny the Witch test that can invalidate the power, then roll to hit, then bear armor/cover/invul saves.

See the difference?

Spamming also makes a mockery out of such concerns. Sure, you may not always get Iron Arm on your single MC...but spam psykers in a nid list and odds are you'll get it with enough models to cheese things.

As for 'relying' on things being bad, why is that only a concern for psyker powers? I don't see anyine saying Psybolt ammo should be rolled on a table, so players are kept on their toes. Should i just purchase two random special weapon slots on my CSM and then roll each on a table and hope I get two plasmaguns, so I don't use them as a crutch?

That's because there are minorities that have 0 benefits from Psychic powers.
Such as Tau, Necrons and Dark Eldar.

If you get a guaranteed psychic power that you are allowed to choose, you could potentially choose things that deliberately screw them over, like mass Iron arm against Necrons, mass Ignore Cover saves against Dark Eldar and Tau.

There is nothing we can do about it and just stare at you killing us.

By making it random, it forces people to not rely on it and gives armies like this a chance to fight back.



Codex between codex wargear should be balanced with other codices, but codex and the psychic powers are something that not everybody has access to so hence it should be random.

 Makutsu wrote:
That's because there are minorities that have 0 benefits from Psychic powers.
Such as Tau, Necrons and Dark Eldar.

If you get a guaranteed psychic power that you are allowed to choose, you could potentially choose things that deliberately screw them over, like mass Iron arm against Necrons, mass Ignore Cover saves against Dark Eldar and Tau.

There is nothing we can do about it and just stare at you killing us.

By making it random, it forces people to not rely on it and gives armies like this a chance to fight back.



Codex between codex wargear should be balanced with other codices, but codex and the psychic powers are something that not everybody has access to so hence it should be random.

I play Dark Eldar, so don't be so quick to put me on the other side.

Also, as i said, it doesn't work and it overly selective. "People only cheese 80% of the time" is not good design. All tables should be redone or made available to all, honestly.

And no one else has access to Mindshackle Scarabs or Psychostroke grenades, which can be far more powerful than most top-tier psyker powers. When are those things going to be on a table to can roll on?

Why do we need to have it only one why. you should be able to pay for a psycher that is reliable (say fully trained) vs say a cheaper one that is much more inexperienced (is why its random)

Random for randoms sake is bad for any game, if there was a point such like the warp storm being an entry fluff part of daemons, it make sense but your telling me a fully fledged marine librarian epistolary cant decide what ability he wants to manifest? (also WTF WHY U NO DIVINATION)

edit: shorter version: Price it right

 Makutsu wrote:
That's because there are minorities that have 0 benefits from Psychic powers.
Such as Tau, Necrons and Dark Eldar.

If you get a guaranteed psychic power that you are allowed to choose, you could potentially choose things that deliberately screw them over, like mass Iron arm against Necrons, mass Ignore Cover saves against Dark Eldar and Tau.

There is nothing we can do about it and just stare at you killing us.

By making it random, it forces people to not rely on it and gives armies like this a chance to fight back.



Codex between codex wargear should be balanced with other codices, but codex and the psychic powers are something that not everybody has access to so hence it should be random.

But now you can still roll Iron arm against necrons and you can still roll ignore cover vs DE or tau.
Right now if I pay for Doom, guess what power do I have against Necrons, Dark Eldar and Tau? It's still Doom.
If I can pick the power knowing the opponent then I am simply list tailoring. There is absolutely no difference between picking flamers or meltas according to the opponent. Do you think you should randomize those two because one is efficient against horde and one isn't?
Should you randomize between artillery shells? One is great against horde, the second one against MEQs. Special weapons of Crysis suits? Plasma or SMS? Splinter Cannon or Dark Lance? Tesla cannon or gaus cannon? Do you really think all those should be rolled and have exact the same cost? Because everything you said could just as well be assigned to those weapons.

Wouldn't it be better to just put a price on a ignore cover power that is much higher than D6 S4 witchfire shooting attack? Because thanks to random table you pay the exact same amount for godly power and a useless one. So sure, player won't rely on getting a power that will screw you. But he can still get it.
Randomizing is not a solution to unbalanced situations. They will still occur. Just like I can't expect to get Iron arm my opponent cannot expect that I won't get them for each and every MC I have.

If what you say is true, then we come to the situation where:
a) People bring psykers. Bringing the same army I sometimes dominate my opponent (if I am lucky) sometimes we have a fair chance, sometimes I'm screwed from the beginning (my opponent is lucky).
b) Nobody brings psykers. One aspect of the game gets thrown out of the window.
or if there existed a magical option:
c) powerful spell costs 50 points, weak power costs 10.

Randomizing powers can create situation A and B. Putting a price on powers can create C. You really wonder why people don't like the idea of random powers?

Being master psykers is the Eldar thing. They should be able to choose their powers.

Totally. If any army should have a fluffy special rule that circumvents that randomness, it's Eldar, hands down. But I think the random part of Psychic power selection is stupid in it's entirety, personally.

 Sephyr wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
That's because there are minorities that have 0 benefits from Psychic powers.
Such as Tau, Necrons and Dark Eldar.

If you get a guaranteed psychic power that you are allowed to choose, you could potentially choose things that deliberately screw them over, like mass Iron arm against Necrons, mass Ignore Cover saves against Dark Eldar and Tau.

There is nothing we can do about it and just stare at you killing us.

By making it random, it forces people to not rely on it and gives armies like this a chance to fight back.



Codex between codex wargear should be balanced with other codices, but codex and the psychic powers are something that not everybody has access to so hence it should be random.

I play Dark Eldar, so don't be so quick to put me on the other side.

Also, as i said, it doesn't work and it overly selective. "People only cheese 80% of the time" is not good design. All tables should be redone or made available to all, honestly.

And no one else has access to Mindshackle Scarabs or Psychostroke grenades, which can be far more powerful than most top-tier psyker powers. When are those things going to be on a table to can roll on?

Well, that's why Psychic powers should either be made to be available to all or make them unreliable so people can't be rely on them to win.
Or just very expensive.

But now you can still roll Iron arm against necrons and you can still roll ignore cover vs DE or tau.
Right now if I pay for Doom, guess what power do I have against Necrons, Dark Eldar and Tau? It's still Doom.
If I can pick the power knowing the opponent then I am simply list tailoring. There is absolutely no difference between picking flamers or meltas according to the opponent. Do you think you should randomize those two because one is efficient against horde and one isn't?
Should you randomize between artillery shells? One is great against horde, the second one against MEQs. Special weapons of Crysis suits? Plasma or SMS? Splinter Cannon or Dark Lance? Tesla cannon or gaus cannon? Do you really think all those should be rolled and have exact the same cost? Because everything you said could just as well be assigned to those weapons.

Wouldn't it be better to just put a price on a ignore cover power that is much higher than D6 S4 witchfire shooting attack? Because thanks to random table you pay the exact same amount for godly power and a useless one. So sure, player won't rely on getting a power that will screw you. But he can still get it.
Randomizing is not a solution to unbalanced situations. They will still occur. Just like I can't expect to get Iron arm my opponent cannot expect that I won't get them for each and every MC I have.

If what you say is true, then we come to the situation where:
a) People bring psykers. Bringing the same army I sometimes dominate my opponent (if I am lucky) sometimes we have a fair chance, sometimes I'm screwed from the beginning (my opponent is lucky).
b) Nobody brings psykers. One aspect of the game gets thrown out of the window.
or if there existed a magical option:
c) powerful spell costs 50 points, weak power costs 10.

Randomizing powers can create situation A and B. Putting a price on powers can create C. You really wonder why people don't like the idea of random powers?

First of all, at least you won't be guarenteed 4-5 Iron Arms on all the MCs. Same thing with rolling the ignore cover saves, it gives us a chance for you to fail getting the ignore cover save. If it was guaranteed then we'd be screwed over every game against psykers with that discpline.

You're talking about Codexes that were older than 6th edition, all the new ones are more adapted to the rolling for psychic power thing.

You can still pick BRB psychic powers right now, it's in the rulebook it's not called list-tailoring. Like Chaos Daemons you can basically work your psychic powers around for that purpose.
Also, some psychic powers are just not worth it, so in the end you'll have 1-2 psychic powers that kept getting chosen unless you can make them expensive enough.

What are you talking about randomizing everything? First of all, psychic powers being random has some fluff to it due to the warp and all. Second of all, when everybody has options to anti-infantry and anti-tank that's fine, but that's not the case with psychic powers.

I agree that randomization is not the best solution, but it's still a method of obtaining balance. Same thing as Shokk attack gun, some people bring it for fun but would never bring to competitive environment, why? because unreliable stuff is generally uncompetitive.
So when designing a list you should design with probability of getting powers in mind, and the Primaris power.

I agree on putting a high price tag on the psychic powers would probably be a better idea than to make them random, but then again people will end up with 1-2 psychic powers that are accidentally not balanced properly or not tested properly, such as cheese and stuff.

 Makutsu wrote:
I agree that randomization is not the best solution, but it's still a method of obtaining balance. Same thing as Shokk attack gun, some people bring it for fun but would never bring to competitive environment, why? because unreliable stuff is generally uncompetitive.
So when designing a list you should design with probability of getting powers in mind, and the Primaris power.

I agree on putting a high price tag on the psychic powers would probably be a better idea than to make them random, but then again people will end up with 1-2 psychic powers that are accidentally not balanced properly or not tested properly, such as cheese and stuff.

Right, so how would you build a competitive Eldar list without a Farseer or Eldrad? It's possible, but not likely. I don't buy the "better for game balance" argument since point costs is how you really balance something, but that's hard to work out and a random table where everything costs the same is easy. I mean holding the Warlord traits up is a great example of how a random table makes a game element completely worthless and obsolete (unless the tables in the codexes are better - I don't remember what was on those). It was a good idea, but hobbled from the start.

I also agree with the comment a few posts back that it's GW's show and they can change what they want. I just don't think it's an idea that will increase sales. I don't think that Psykers are too powerful, but this discussion seems to break down along Eldar/non-Eldar lines and that suggests to me that we're (we Eldar players) are doomed to be disappointed in the new codex. I don't fear all change, I just fear change for that makes my already more challenging army even more challenging. I won't leave the game or anything so melodramatic (too much time and $$ invested anyway), but I'll be disappointed. I'll work out house rules with my friends and be fine. I just feel for the more competitive Craftworlds.

 mars2024 wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:
I agree that randomization is not the best solution, but it's still a method of obtaining balance. Same thing as Shokk attack gun, some people bring it for fun but would never bring to competitive environment, why? because unreliable stuff is generally uncompetitive.
So when designing a list you should design with probability of getting powers in mind, and the Primaris power.

I agree on putting a high price tag on the psychic powers would probably be a better idea than to make them random, but then again people will end up with 1-2 psychic powers that are accidentally not balanced properly or not tested properly, such as cheese and stuff.

Right, so how would you build a competitive Eldar list without a Farseer or Eldrad? It's possible, but not likely. I don't buy the "better for game balance" argument since point costs is how you really balance something, but that's hard to work out and a random table where everything costs the same is easy. I mean holding the Warlord traits up is a great example of how a random table makes a game element completely worthless and obsolete (unless the tables in the codexes are better - I don't remember what was on those). It was a good idea, but hobbled from the start.

I also agree with the comment a few posts back that it's GW's show and they can change what they want. I just don't think it's an idea that will increase sales. I don't think that Psykers are too powerful, but this discussion seems to break down along Eldar/non-Eldar lines and that suggests to me that we're (we Eldar players) are doomed to be disappointed in the new codex. I don't fear all change, I just fear change for that makes my already more challenging army even more challenging. I won't leave the game or anything so melodramatic (too much time and $$ invested anyway), but I'll be disappointed. I'll work out house rules with my friends and be fine. I just feel for the more competitive Craftworlds.

Prescience itself is pretty powerful, and you can still base strategy off of what you might get. Have an army list that can benefit from 1/3 of the powers of a tree and what to trade out when you roll a specific crappy psychic power.
That's what I do when I use Eldar Allies.
Farseers would be competitive just because of their insane psychic defense.
Also, you would have the Primrasis power in the book as well assuming the new codex will use tables as well, that should bring you up to 2-3 guarenteed powers that you can rely on, and above that you will be risking the chance of not getting a good power.


Psychic powers are so insane right now, if you don't have them you're playing at such a huge disadvantage.
Casting 3 Presciences buffs your army so much that it's not even fun.
This is my experience with my Dark Eldar, Tau & Necrons, and no psychic powers/defence is not fun.

 Makutsu wrote:

Psychic powers are so insane right now, if you don't have them you're playing at such a huge disadvantage.
Casting 3 Presciences buffs your army so much that it's not even fun.
This is my experience with my Dark Eldar, Tau & Necrons, and no psychic powers/defence is not fun.

But no one can do that. Even Eldrad can only cast one power twice. I don't doubt that it's tough for DE/T/N, but those armies have other strengths. If you nerf Psykers to the point of making them irrelevant, what's left for an Eldar player? We're so nerfed with everything else, Psykers is all we have going for us. That's what I don't get: why would GW kill off one of their factions?

I believe the point of all the randomness is to level the playing field. Not an attempt at balancing in any strategic, tactical or meaningful way but by sheer dice rolling. It lets marginal players beat good ones at a higher percentage, thus anchoring the interest for a larger potential player base. It's marketing, not good game design; and it's quite deliberate.

 mars2024 wrote:

 Makutsu wrote:

Psychic powers are so insane right now, if you don't have them you're playing at such a huge disadvantage.
Casting 3 Presciences buffs your army so much that it's not even fun.
This is my experience with my Dark Eldar, Tau & Necrons, and no psychic powers/defence is not fun.

But no one can do that. Even Eldrad can only cast one power twice. I don't doubt that it's tough for DE/T/N, but those armies have other strengths. If you nerf Psykers to the point of making them irrelevant, what's left for an Eldar player? We're so nerfed with everything else, Psykers is all we have going for us. That's what I don't get: why would GW kill off one of their factions?

How would Necrons how to fight 4-5 T8 MCs with Feel no pain, They will not die, Eternal Warrior. Assuming you are allowed to choose powers directly.

Not sure what you mean by no one can do that.
Not if you chose Prescience, then you can cast 3 times the same thing.
And if you are choosing codex powers, you already have choice over what you will be using, so what's the problem?

You're talking about an old codex that's going to get updated really soon.
And on top of that you still have the most insane psychic defence, they're not irrelevant and have their positions to just assuming a different role.
What do you mean psykers are all you have? War walkers are still very competitive, so are rangers/guardians on ADL with fortune on them.
Wave Serpants are really good at transporting stuff might be a bit over costed but ignores half the anti-tank stuff that exist out there.
Fire Prisms have insane range and can get guided to make sure that it hits most of the time with high damage plates.
There's still a lot of goodies in your bag right now, of course they need some update but they are going to get one really soon.

Are... are you complaining about Necrons not being good enough? It seems to me like you're arguing that because not every army has psykers, then psykers shouldn't be a reliable tool for competition. Not everyone has tesla weapons, or flyer transports that don't damage the passengers when they explode. That isn't quite fair, I think you should have to roll randomly for it!

Let's talk about fluff for a second. First off, why is it a problem that not all armies have psykers? It differentiates them, and the fluff gives clear reasons why they don't. DE don't have psykers to avoid Slaanesh. Tau don't have psykers because they have no connection to the Warp. Necrons have no psykers because they're robots. Where's the problem? And the fluff behind rolling really makes no sense for about half the armies. Farseers and Librarians are highly trained, extremely disciplined warriors who do everything they can to keep their powers under tight control. Why are they going into battle with random abilities? Sure, IG sanctioned psykers are probably random scrubs off the Black Ships, CSM and Daemons have the whole Chaos thing going on, Orks are Orks, and Nids could go either way.

It's lazy game design, is what it comes down to. You don't have a problem of one or two powers only ever being used if each power costs a number of points, those points are assigned correctly and intelligently, and they don't bother putting absolutely worthless choices in in the first place. It really is just a way to hamstring people in the list building phase, by taking away the reliability of a tool in their arsenal. It's exactly the same as if every other game your railgun fired puppies and rainbows instead of anti-tank rounds. I like a lot of the randomness (objectives, terrain, and the Warlord traits in the new codexes that are actually useful), but not this one.

I never said that Necrons aren't good enough and neither did I say it shouldn't be a reliable tool.

It's not that you don't have Psychic powers that are reliable, you are asking for all of them to be reliable.
Primaris Powers are 100% reliable, so why can't you base off of them? Plus you still have codex powers as well.
Psychic powers being random makes it harder for you to rely on anything further than the Primaris power.
Why do people assume that BRB psychic powers is something that you should take for granted?

Fluffwise I understand completely that we don't have psychic powers, but a better deny would be fair such as the rumored one that Tau is going to get.

Fluff wise Warp is Chaotic hence random.

Both methods are ways to solve who gets what powers, but the random rolling one gives you the choice either to get the primaris power and be reliable or take the chance to have a better power.
And you get to roll first then choose if you want the primaris as well.

If you are using a list that requires psychic powers or want to use psychic powers then have units that can encorporate every psychic power that could be rolled.

But that argument defeats the purpose of the unit! A Farseer should be able to do what I paid for it to do. If they want real balance, then make me pay more points for better powers, not make me roll and wish really hard that I get it. An Ork Warboss is always going to beat face, a Crisis suit will reliably shoot things really hard, and a Necron Overlord will tear things up. Those are their jobs, and they can always do them as appropriately equipped. Why should a Librarian, Sorcerer, or Farseer not be able to say the same?

Hell, I think putting powers in the rulebook and making the disciplines was a bad move in the first place. I think it homogenizes armies. Each book should have their own powers, as they have their own units and wargear. It was a good effort, but I don't think it turned out too well.

A farseer can still buy powers from the codex, such as doom fortune, guide etc...
AND the most important thing is that a farseer's position can just be psychic defence, why is it that they have to be aggressive?
Runes of Warding, best psychic defence ever.

Prescience is more than enough to justify the purchase of a Psyker for Libby and Farseer to be honest. Not 100% how a sorcerer works so not ooing to comment on them.


I agree partially, but it streamlines psychic powers and makes it less confusing accross the board.
It's good and bad at the same time.

You wrongly assume that prescience solves Eldar's problems, they don't

I think this discussion is wrongly stuck on eldar and their powers, which is a really old codex and is seen at the bottom of the power list by many players.

The issue with random powers for me is as some people stated, some of the older codexes army lists can't function without set powers. Like there is no point of running any kind of eldar melee unit without fortune (well at 6th edition i as an eldar player don't see the point fo the eldar at all- i shelved them months ago), or even eldar shooty unit, since the whole army costs more then marines per model cost and die like fire warriors at best. Obviously when the new eldar codex comes around one can hope they changed the army so much that either it will work even with random powers or it will have set powers which are expensive but won't make you the dice's lap dog.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

Hell, I think putting powers in the rulebook and making the disciplines was a bad move in the first place. I think it homogenizes armies. Each book should have their own powers, as they have their own units and wargear. It was a good effort, but I don't think it turned out too well.

CSM and Daemons both got their own powers, I'm sure Eldar and Orks will too. Which means the BRB powers are mostly Imperial powers really. And I would expect that Eldar powers would be largely based around divination and such, so there'd be a similar power to prescience. I could easily imagine it would be the primaris too, though I do wonder if Warlocks would get something more combative for their primaris...

I for one love the power charts and the uncertainty couple with one forseeable option.

 Makutsu wrote:
A farseer can still buy powers from the codex, such as doom fortune, guide etc...
AND the most important thing is that a farseer's position can just be psychic defence, why is it that they have to be aggressive?
Runes of Warding, best psychic defence ever.

I don't think anyone wants them to be aggressive, Farseers are and have always been support characters. They should just be reliable in the support role you have in mind for them.

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

Hell, I think putting powers in the rulebook and making the disciplines was a bad move in the first place. I think it homogenizes armies. Each book should have their own powers, as they have their own units and wargear. It was a good effort, but I don't think it turned out too well.

CSM and Daemons both got their own powers, I'm sure Eldar and Orks will too. Which means the BRB powers are mostly Imperial powers really. And I would expect that Eldar powers would be largely based around divination and such, so there'd be a similar power to prescience. I could easily imagine it would be the primaris too, though I do wonder if Warlocks would get something more combative for their primaris...

I for one love the power charts and the uncertainty couple with one forseeable option.

The Daemon powers are not very good. Aside from Horrors (who have to) and Tzeentch Heralds (who are with the Horrors) taking the Tzeentch primaris, I don't see those charts getting very much widespread use, especially with such easy access to Divination and Biomancy, clearly the two best BRB charts. So even with the charts in the codex, for the most part they're going to be running around with the same powers as everyone else.

And I sincerely hope that the Eldar don't have charts, or can choose their powers from their charts. They are THE psykers, that's their entire schtick. Now Daemons and Nids can field psykers in huge quantities, so Eldar should naturally be the leaders for quality. They should at least get to be reliable, if only to give them something to separate them from the pack.